The MMOG landscape - unchanging and eternal (since 2004)

[Ingmar]

I'm looking forward for Raph's project on Meatspace.   It might rides the fine line between indie innovation and professional production.

Also : Green Monster Games?

I thought Raph cancelled his MMO and instead focusing everything on the Meatspace user generated stuff?

Is there really any doubt as to what GMG is going to make?

EQ EXTREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEME

[Venkman]

Maybe when one person can make an MMO like one person can make a film/comic/music within a few year period we will know the tools have evolved enough.  There are not many choices in MMO to play, but there are lots of choices and for some to many choices (solved well enough by search\word of mouth) for film/comic/music to consume because of the tools reducing the cost to make them.

I appreciate your niave hope, but you're a bit uninformed. There's already Sherwood Dungeon, which is an MMO created by one person (done in Shockwave). Many of the current and upcoming MMOs are being done in Flash. There's MMOs in the form of NWN "quilts". And there's Raph's Metaplace which is attempting to give tools to everyone.

You'll see though. Just as in film/comic/music, there's going to be 99% crap and 1% good stuff. That lone is discouraging. Add to that the reality that drawing some pictures is on a very different (and lower) order of magnitude from making an FPS level, much less a game with dozens or hundreds of them.

You sound as though your a believer in tools. That's great, because that's how tools get made. But the more important part is the same it has been since people started doing something other than making stuff functional: how those tools are used.

[UnSub]

Wasn't Minions of Mirth one guy who developed a pseudo MMO?

Also, probably the most one-man indie MMO in development (that I've heard of) is Love. But will it ever come out... and what will you do with it if it does?

[SnakeCharmer]

MMOs are, and probably always will be, caught in a vicous circle.

Innovation is stiffled by fear until someone else does it first and is moderately successful with it (i.e. everyone else sees how it's done, and then improves it).  Futher, the same people making the same mistakes are getting hired on as design leads or project leads or whatever and they're effectively training the new hires below them to make the same mistakes that they will continue to make all the way up until the point they're (the new underling hires) are design leads and project leads etc etc etc.  Nepotism runs rampant.  Failures are given too many second third fourth chances infinite restarts (see Rich Vogel and Gordon Walton at BioWare, the head dude for the Stargate Worlds that was in charge of Earth and Beyond, McQualude, Garriott, the list goes on).  If someone fucks the pooch as badly as these guys have in my line of work, they'd never be handed a job again no matter how small or how big.  Yet these chuckfucks are given the keys to the castle time and time again.

WHY?

They claim they're too expensive.  They claim they take too long.  The reality is they all suffer from the same affliction:  Poor project management which makes them expensive and time consuming.

[Venkman]

It's not MMOs. It's the industry. Everything you said applies to every other established genre too

[Llyse]

- PVP/griefing. You can't really achieve a truly immersive world with PVP flags, but if you have open PVP, even with harsh social consequences, you are shutting out a huge chunk of your potential market. I won't play games like that anymore, not as my Single Main MMO of Choice anyway. Call it the "No Slayeriks Clause".

I think it is possible to have PVP/griefing and still be mainstream to a large degree.

According to CCP stats a larger amount of the active account population is located in Empire/Carebear space.

As long as there is an area where a significant amount activities for people to do without fear for their life.

The main problem is balancing risk vs reward.

There has to be a reason to enter the Slayerik zones without it being required for those who want to live their life in peace.

It shouldn't require supreme amounts of metagaming/zerging/minmaxing in order for someone to explore pvp areas unless they're complete retards though so that explorers and traders can find a niche.

I think Eve does this well? but it might be very hard for a more mainstream publisher not to bow under pressure to make pvp areas more accessible.

Disclaimer: This is from the viewpoint of someone who plays Eve and hangs with Slayerik 

[UnsGub]

You're living in Cloudcuckooland if you think that one person will ever be able to make an MMO.

A dreams can seem that way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Novels_by_Stephen_King is alot of books.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pablo_Picasso just had to draw on a napkin to be of value.
http://www.lvbeethoven.com/Oeuvres/ListOpus.html is a lot of music.

Games start out being created and build by one person and are still being done that way.  They are getting bigger and no reason they cannot get MMO big.

[UnsGub]

You'll see though. Just as in film/comic/music, there's going to be 99% crap and 1% good stuff. That lone is discouraging.

Wow, UO, Eve, Planetside are about the only different choices that are currently available.  1% of 1000 or 10,000 is more choices then today.  As a consumer my time to look for that 1% is worth it with today existing search and word of mouth. 

[TheCastle]

Games start out being created and build by one person and are still being done that way.  They are getting bigger and no reason they cannot get MMO big.

While tools are a huge important difference they have yet to make that much of a difference yet. For example if I was asked to make a doom2 Iwad I would still need about 4-5 designers to get it done in a reasonable time frame. (3 to 6 months) And that would be using doom builder vs using DEU. And this would be DOOM not some new cutting edge game. So I can tell you that on the front of doing first person shooters the tools have grown quite rapidly however the demands for shippable games have also grown not just in the sense of technology but standards as well. Take a good look at the basic standards asked for when working with UE3. I swear to you some of the assets in gears of war took a single artist multiple weeks often times even longer.

Someone can write a novel and have it be very high quality and do it alone but for a game you would need a fucking rockstar to be able to code his own engine and create shippable art for a AAA tittle. Maybe down the road tools will do more auto-generation of assets. Things like being able to procedurally create geometry by feeding different geometry art style values could make what you are saying a potential reality.

What would be more likely to happen I think is for one guy to make the groundwork for his game then higher other more specialized dev houses to fill in the blanks. But games, even the simplest ones are a huge pain in the ass to make. I LOVE UE3 man, the engine is a fucking masterpiece but for fucks sake doing a game alone with that tech or any future derivative would be ..... 

[DraconianOne]

A dreams can seem that way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Novels_by_Stephen_King is alot of books.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pablo_Picasso just had to draw on a napkin to be of value.
http://www.lvbeethoven.com/Oeuvres/ListOpus.html is a lot of music.

Games start out being created and build by one person and are still being done that way.  They are getting bigger and no reason they cannot get MMO big.

Come on, this is a total non-sequitur.  You're really stretching to try and make a point here - you were closer to the mark with the comparison to film making. Writing, painting and composing music are not the same as developing an MMO.

[Slayerik]

If you can come up with a type of MMOG that you want to play that isn't WOW I'll be pleasantly surprised.  I think most people want a different flavor of WOW/EQ1/SojournMUD/DIKU.

Copy all of Eves systems but use Mechs / tanks / aircraft with 1st/3rd person aiming and actual projectiles so it's more of a twitch game than a "my 1 2 3 4 rotation is > than your 2 2 1 3 rotation" game.

Or have Jumpgate copy everything Eve does but let you actually fly your ship. Either one works.

My brother, coworker, and I have been talking about a Mechwarrior MMO with very similar design ideas on our way home from work for the past few days. The nice thing about the IP, is it is an actual GAMER IP. Not a fuckin' board game or movie IP.

Similar loot drop/salvage options as Eve as well. You buy/build better (or different) mechs...but there is always a 'rookie ship' type one you can fall back on. Initially, the battlefield would be small mechs and occasional medium ones. Would eventually progress to Small/Medium with a touch of Heavy Mechs. Kinda exactly how it worked in Eve...when Battleships are like Carriers today.

Could have specialized mechs that use heat warfare or ECM, repair/logistic (healer) type Mechs. A similar loadout system to Eve as well, customizable Mechs but people can learn the basic strengths and weaknesses of each Mech type.

Setting would be pre-Clan...with Clan tech eventually being introduced when they show up.

Could run missions or fight in Border systems for cash. Guilds (for lack of better term) could claim a planet and build your own city/starport that would require defenses. These jobs could be avilable to other players.....or manufacture/research/trade. But, once again, these are just pipe dreams.



One thing this thread made me realize is how far we haven't come. Can I get housing back?

[Mrbloodworth]

Wasn't Minions of Mirth one guy who developed a pseudo MMO?

2 programmers. And its a full fledged MMO.

[Venkman]

You'll see though. Just as in film/comic/music, there's going to be 99% crap and 1% good stuff. That lone is discouraging.

Wow, UO, Eve, Planetside are about the only different choices that are currently available.  1% of 1000 or 10,000 is more choices then today.  As a consumer my time to look for that 1% is worth it with today existing search and word of mouth.  

Have you ever played any of the two dozen other AAA download/install PC MMOs? Any of the browser ones? Any of the Eastern ones?

Your 1% of 1000 is a relevant statement. But I suspect you don't have enough experience with the games that exist now to understand a) the diversity out there; and, b) the complexity of making them. Your analogies to books, music and movies also indicates a lack of understanding of just how many people are involved with going from concept to distribution. Unless you're photocopying for your friends what you wrote in MS Word or sending MP3s of what you banged out in GarageBand, you're part of a total industry that is more than just "ooh, I have a cool idea, let's go publish it!"

If you haven't played more than these four, or six, or eight, then you're already not doing the kind of research you claim you'll do in the magically crowd-sourced word of cheap-o experiences.

Quantity does not inspire quality. It can help, but you also need to show up with a good idea, and the talent and skill to execute. This has been the case since MUD1 in 1980. The only thing that has changed is the tools.

[Demonix]

If you can come up with a type of MMOG that you want to play that isn't WOW I'll be pleasantly surprised.  I think most people want a different flavor of WOW/EQ1/SojournMUD/DIKU.

Copy all of Eves systems but use Mechs / tanks / aircraft with 1st/3rd person aiming and actual projectiles so it's more of a twitch game than a "my 1 2 3 4 rotation is > than your 2 2 1 3 rotation" game.

Or have Jumpgate copy everything Eve does but let you actually fly your ship. Either one works.

My brother, coworker, and I have been talking about a Mechwarrior MMO with very similar design ideas on our way home from work for the past few days. The nice thing about the IP, is it is an actual GAMER IP. Not a fuckin' board game or movie IP.

Mechwarrior would be an awesome IP to make into a MMOG world, but who owns that IP now?  FASA is defunct, does hasbro own it?  or microsoft?  I miss my 2 LRM 15, 2 PPC, 2 med laser loadout.

[Falconeer]

If you can come up with a type of MMOG that you want to play that isn't WOW I'll be pleasantly surprised.  I think most people want a different flavor of WOW/EQ1/SojournMUD/DIKU.

Is this a trick question?
I want three games, and none of them resemble WoW even remotely:

1) A huge sandbox, similar to Ultima Online. Of course it needs FFA and nasty PVP. It could use permadeath on certain circumstances. You can call it Ultima Online 2.
2) A full PVP game based on territorial conquest from the ground up with a huge focus on guilds and subguilds. It has to be completely instance-free. You can call it Shadowbane 2.
3) EVE with just a bit more twitch and an even wider scope, as in battles on planets surface and, yeah, Mechs and tanks. The game Slayerik came up with, I'd play it.

So easy. Are you pleasantly surprised now?

To clarify: I don't think these games would succeed. You just asked what we want, and this is my dreamlist.

[Slayerik]

Mechwarrior would be an awesome IP to make into a MMOG world, but who owns that IP now?  FASA is defunct, does hasbro own it?  or microsoft?  I miss my 2 LRM 15, 2 PPC, 2 med laser loadout.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MechWarrior

Then it reads: Topps Shuts Down WizKids
The Topps Company announced on Monday, Nov. 10th 2008 that it would be closing down WizKids and discontinuing product lines including HeroClix. Topps CEO Scott Silverstein commented "This was an extremely difficult decision. But in light of the current economic conditions, we feel it is necessary to align our gaming initiatives more closely with Topps current sports and entertainment offerings which are already being developed within our New York office."

In the statement announcing the close of WizKids, Topps also indicated that it was pursuing alternatives to discontinuing brands so that brands such as HeroClix could continue on without any noticeable disruption in future product offerings.

EDIT: In March 2003, it was announced that Mechwarrior 5 had been canceled. There has yet to be any official word on future titles in the series. However in October 2007 the startup company Smith and Tinker, created by Weisman, acquired the right to the Mechwarrior series as well as other notable FASA franchises (namely Crimson Skies and Shadowrun). It is currently unknown what future plans the company has for these properties.




Nows the time to buy the IP BABY!

Who wants to back me about 20 million after that to get started?

Curt baby, holla atcha boy :)

[Trippy]

My brother, coworker, and I have been talking about a Mechwarrior MMO with very similar design ideas on our way home from work for the past few days. The nice thing about the IP, is it is an actual GAMER IP. Not a fuckin' board game or movie IP.

Similar loot drop/salvage options as Eve as well. You buy/build better (or different) mechs...but there is always a 'rookie ship' type one you can fall back on. Initially, the battlefield would be small mechs and occasional medium ones. Would eventually progress to Small/Medium with a touch of Heavy Mechs. Kinda exactly how it worked in Eve...when Battleships are like Carriers today.

Could have specialized mechs that use heat warfare or ECM, repair/logistic (healer) type Mechs. A similar loadout system to Eve as well, customizable Mechs but people can learn the basic strengths and weaknesses of each Mech type.

Setting would be pre-Clan...with Clan tech eventually being introduced when they show up.

Could run missions or fight in Border systems for cash. Guilds (for lack of better term) could claim a planet and build your own city/starport that would require defenses. These jobs could be avilable to other players.....or manufacture/research/trade. But, once again, these are just pipe dreams.



One thing this thread made me realize is how far we haven't come. Can I get housing back?

Actually the MW2 community did something very similiar to this back in 1994 with our own "metagame" on top of MW 2. Basically everybody was a member of a House and the planets each House controlled generated "resource points" to buy equipment. Then each House leader would schedule matches based on which planets were being attacked and we'd duke it out.

We just need somebody to make a "modern" online MW game and the fans can do the rest.

[TheCastle]

My brother, coworker, and I have been talking about a Mechwarrior MMO with very similar design ideas on our way home from work for the past few days. The nice thing about the IP, is it is an actual GAMER IP. Not a fuckin' board game or movie IP.

One thing I would like to see in this idea would be the ability to step out of my mech from time to time and actually be able to do some small tasks or exploration in 3rd person while on foot if I feel like it. Even if its not the main focus in the game. Maybe it would help reduce how impersonal eve can seem sometimes.

[UnsGub]

But I suspect you don't have enough experience with the games that exist now to understand a) the diversity out there; and, b) the complexity of making them. Your analogies to books, music and movies also indicates a lack of understanding of just how many people are involved with going from concept to distribution.

...

Quantity does not inspire quality. It can help, but you also need to show up with a good idea, and the talent and skill to execute. This has been the case since MUD1 in 1980. The only thing that has changed is the tools.

If the diversity were out there I should have read about it on these forums alone.

Yes they are complex.  They are the OSs of yesterday. Some OS are free today even. They are complex like building a computer.  Network thousand of clients.  Do millions of transitions a day.  Serve millions of requests a day.    Worked on those in the past in both gaming (Casino\PC) and internet spaces.  Yes they are all large teams from dozens to hundreds.

It used to take someone with a lot of knowledge and ability to make and publish a web site.  Tools make it possible if one knows how to use a computer they can now make and publish a website, with a back end even.  My current environment has two dozen people doing what took a hundred or more to do in the past.  Yes it took 20 years to get to this point but the changes to management and the tools that are being used are what allow for this.  Once a few geniuses grow up surround by the medium and the tools it will happen.  At some point it is just make digital bits that talk to each other, the hard part, and copying them about, which is now easy.  That is the beauty of computers and software.

[mutantmagnet]

We just need somebody to make a "modern" online MW game and the fans can do the rest.

Our prayers are being answered

[Slayerik]

Neat, but not exactly an MMO with 32 player maps. Still, thanks for the link ... I'll be checkin it out.

[Trippy]

We just need somebody to make a "modern" online MW game and the fans can do the rest.

Our prayers are being answered

It'll get FOX'd once Jordan Weisman's new company gets further along on their games.

[Mrbloodworth]

If the diversity were out there I should have read about it on these forums alone.

None reads my posts!!! 

[mutantmagnet]

Neat, but not exactly an MMO with 32 player maps. Still, thanks for the link ... I'll be checkin it out.

I had the same complaint as well but keep in mind that is similar to the limitations to that original multiplayer effort Battletech3025. Players had to play from hubs representing their house and protected that hub on planets that could only support 32 players as well.

[TheCastle]

If the diversity were out there I should have read about it on these forums alone.

Yes they are complex.  They are the OSs of yesterday. Some OS are free today even. They are complex like building a computer.  Network thousand of clients.  Do millions of transitions a day.  Serve millions of requests a day.    Worked on those in the past in both gaming (Casino\PC) and internet spaces.  Yes they are all large teams from dozens to hundreds.

It used to take someone with a lot of knowledge and ability to make and publish a web site.  Tools make it possible if one knows how to use a computer they can now make and publish a website, with a back end even.  My current environment has two dozen people doing what took a hundred or more to do in the past.  Yes it took 20 years to get to this point but the changes to management and the tools that are being used are what allow for this.  Once a few geniuses grow up surround by the medium and the tools it will happen.  At some point it is just make digital bits that talk to each other, the hard part, and copying them about, which is now easy.  That is the beauty of computers and software.

My gutt is telling me in this case however you might be missing on something though. In the case of game design when the tools get better the standards of what is expected also goes up so. So the best tools in the world could be at hand but the game will obviously have a noticeably higher production value when a team of 300 people worked on it. Games are also nothing like most other mediums in some very basic respects and somewhat invalidates your comparisons.

A play tester determining if your content is fun while looking for bugs is another beast altogether from a guy who is just looking for bugs to make sure this application is functioning properly. Movies and books are not interactive.. these are some fundamental differences here. Are you sure that doesn't matter? Because I am not sure those details are irrelevant at all.

[Tarami]

It used to take someone with a lot of knowledge and ability to make and publish a web site.

It takes more knowledge and deeper understanding today to produce something that can pass as a "modern" homepage than it did before. Notepad and ftp.exe won't cut it - it did ten years ago, however.

You see, while tools let us produce faster, it's mainly used to produce -better- results. Nobody will enjoy an HTML 3.0 compliant homepage 2008. Just like nobody will care for what WoW is doing today in ten or twenty years.

Let's face it, I can build Space Invaders in a few hours thanks to modern tools, but nobody would play it.

[DraconianOne]

It used to take someone with a lot of knowledge and ability to make and publish a web site.  Tools make it possible if one knows how to use a computer they can now make and publish a website, with a back end even.  My current environment has two dozen people doing what took a hundred or more to do in the past. 

What are you talking about?  When was this mythical time when it took someone "with a lot of knowledge and ability to make and publish a website"?  The tools have always been there since shortly after the World Wide Web was released. HTML was first formally defined in what? Mid '92? SoftQuad released HotMeTaL in '94. Hell, I started developing web pages in '95 on the back of a Philosophy degree. Any moron could do it - the megabytes of trash on ye olde GeoCities websites were a testament to that.

I will grant you that the tools and the software have made things more easily accessible to end-users: people can run database driven sites without even knowing what a database is. But being able to install WordPress, apply a theme and customize the functionality with plugins and addons does not make them a web developer.  What that means is that there are metric shit-ton of blogs out there - millions of the fuckers. The majority of them are not very good.  Here's a fun thing you can do - find a blogspot hosted website. See that bar on the top? Click on the "Next blog" button.  Do that a hundred times and take a look at all the blogs  you see.  Are they masterpieces of design and content? Unlikely.  We're back to the quantity does not equal quality.

I'm also bemused by what you mean when you talk about "copying them about which is now easy."  What's that got to do with anything?  I can set up and run a private WoW server which could have hundreds of people playing on it. Doing so might make me a criminal but it does not make me a game developer.  

Here's another thing - partly tied up to what I think TheCastle was saying above me. I've been developing applications in a particular software environment for the last 13 years (and oh gods does that make me feel old!)  I've seen 5 versions of the software been released. Far from making my life easier, it's made it more complicated by giving me far more options on what I'm able to do.  Newcomers to the software have so much more to learn compared to the incremental learning that I've been through over all that time. It's the difference between someone who's been playing WoW from the outset and knows his level 80 priest inside and out compared to someone who's never played WoW and just bought a level 80 off eBay. Is he going to know how to play it to it's fullest extent? Is he fuck?

Wait - you've got me coming up with ridiculous analagoies now. I'm getting out of here.

[Nija]

My brother, coworker, and I have been talking about a Mechwarrior MMO with very similar design ideas on our way home from work for the past few days. The nice thing about the IP, is it is an actual GAMER IP. Not a fuckin' board game or movie IP.

Well, I'm not really a Mech fan, other than being a fan of gigantic human driven robots. Also, I don't like using established IPs because then you get a bunch of lorebois along with fanbois, and both of those types of people are huge problems. The mechs in this instance would be created from scratch.

"Mechs" is just about the only thing I can think of to make a lot of the proven-to-work Eve systems work in something that isn't outer space.

In Eve, I like that when you blow up someone, some of their shit is blown up along with them. Some of it isn't. You can then take that stuff. In UO, I loved being able to loot everything the person had once I killed them, but I realize I'm a minority in that viewpoint so I don't think it's a good use of time to try to force it on others.

Eve is the middle ground between full looting and no looting. It's "logical looting" so to speak. It gives the person a chance to enhance their character (implants) and yet have a very good chance of keeping those indefinitely, UNLESS they get careless. It gives the winner of PVP battles some extra rewards, without rendering the victim itemless, lost and poor. I just can't figure out how one would incorporate this kind of game into a fantasy setting.

I mean maybe you could come up with some crazy gay elf shit where everyone is a SPRITE SPIRIT and you then just take control of creatures and use their bodies as mechs/spaceships, and then you have an EJECTION SEAT to eject your gay elf sprite spirit and possibly get away, leaving the mortal body that you inhabited to be looted. I'll stop at that because this train of thought is absurd.

[TheCastle]

I mean maybe you could come up with some crazy gay elf shit where everyone is a SPRITE SPIRIT and you then just take control of creatures and use their bodies as mechs/spaceships, and then you have an EJECTION SEAT to eject your gay elf sprite spirit and possibly get away, leaving the mortal body that you inhabited to be looted. I'll stop at that because this train of thought is absurd.

Brilliant idea actually... Its not absurd at all tbh.
It would take a bit of evolution and pre-production to see where the idea can become a full fledged game but I can definitely see it being worthwhile venture in the end. Just thought I would point that out.

[Slyfeind]

In Eve, I like that when you blow up someone, some of their shit is blown up along with them. Some of it isn't. You can then take that stuff. In UO, I loved being able to loot everything the person had once I killed them, but I realize I'm a minority in that viewpoint so I don't think it's a good use of time to try to force it on others.

I think a lot of resistance to that came from people who didn't realize loot is cheap in UO. That, and the mere idea of someone taking all your stuff. I remember the first time I was looted. I was so damn pissed and upset and on fire and raging until I looked in my bank and found three sets of the same stuff I had lost.

If players can be reminded through gameplay that their stuff is cheap, if it can be made fun, it's something that can come back to MMOs. Consider the Mech example. One of your earlier missions could be "We need to test the resilience of our mechs. You've been given 10 mechs. Your job is to get the shit blown out of yourself as quickly as possible. You have ten seconds to be completely obliterated, at which point your ejector seat will magically launch you into your next mech. And...GO!!!"

[Lantyssa]

Actually the MW2 community did something very similiar to this back in 1994 with our own "metagame" on top of MW 2. Basically everybody was a member of a House and the planets each House controlled generated "resource points" to buy equipment. Then each House leader would schedule matches based on which planets were being attacked and we'd duke it out.

We just need somebody to make a "modern" online MW game and the fans can do the rest.

Yay Steiner!

I think my old unit is all playing WoW now, though.

[Ingmar]

- PVP/griefing. You can't really achieve a truly immersive world with PVP flags, but if you have open PVP, even with harsh social consequences, you are shutting out a huge chunk of your potential market. I won't play games like that anymore, not as my Single Main MMO of Choice anyway. Call it the "No Slayeriks Clause".

I think it is possible to have PVP/griefing and still be mainstream to a large degree.

According to CCP stats a larger amount of the active account population is located in Empire/Carebear space.

As long as there is an area where a significant amount activities for people to do without fear for their life.

The main problem is balancing risk vs reward.

There has to be a reason to enter the Slayerik zones without it being required for those who want to live their life in peace.

It shouldn't require supreme amounts of metagaming/zerging/minmaxing in order for someone to explore pvp areas unless they're complete retards though so that explorers and traders can find a niche.

I think Eve does this well? but it might be very hard for a more mainstream publisher not to bow under pressure to make pvp areas more accessible.

Disclaimer: This is from the viewpoint of someone who plays Eve and hangs with Slayerik 

My main point was that Slayerik is able to do what he does *in Empire/carebear space.* Or at least was, I don't follow Eve that closely - work up a bunch of positive zone faction, blow away some poor sap with a hauler full of money, then work his way back up the faction tree to do it again, or whatever. That's the sort of thing I wouldn't want to be possible and I suspect is a turnoff for the general crowd of gamers, if not a deal-killer like it is for me. I don't mind there being unsafe space; I do mind there being no truly safe space for my PVE entertainments.

If that sort of thing is possible, people will do it no matter how harsh the consequences. I saw it happen all the time on a small MUD where the punishment went all the way up to deleting the character. People would just make another one, work their way up, and go out in a blaze of griefing glory.

But there's no doubt that NOT letting people have the capability to choose to behave in that way screws with realism/immersion/verisimilitude/whatever-you-prefer-to-call-it like crazy.

[Fordel]

Actually the MW2 community did something very similiar to this back in 1994 with our own "metagame" on top of MW 2. Basically everybody was a member of a House and the planets each House controlled generated "resource points" to buy equipment. Then each House leader would schedule matches based on which planets were being attacked and we'd duke it out.

We just need somebody to make a "modern" online MW game and the fans can do the rest.

Yay Steiner!

I think my old unit is all playing WoW now, though.

What league(s) did you guys play in?


I was mostly House Davion in the ADL (think revision 2 or 3 at that point) for Mech2: Mercs, but I had quite a bit of experience in the TKZ (I think it was TKZ) under the Wolf's Dragoons for Mech 2 (I actually played using only the netmech demo, since it was free and I was like... 12). I was also a random sub for the GC ladder, but I hardly played that one. I enjoyed the planetary leagues so much more.


Meeeemorriiiies 




If there ever was a IP/Game system that screamed this kind of MMO, it is BattleTech. The only thing that really held back the old leagues was the fact most of us were still on dial up (not even 56k  ) and the web-tech those days was still animated gifs and blinking text. I remember filing out a spreadsheet form in excel that would make the Taxman proud and mailing it off to the ADL admin every month where he would manually verify it and every other house/clan/merc unit had what they said they had, and where. The forums we used... 

[Murgos]

Meh, Slayer was really only able to do that because people would go afk for long periods of time with vast amounts of resources in their under-fit ships.

I side with Slayer on this side of the PVP fence, CCP was/is very clear that no where in the game is expected to be safe, Slayer used the games mechanics as they exist, not as they were perceived to be.  Eve has anti-high sec gank mechanisms in place, they work extremely well, if you use them, his targets didn't use them.  Some people play Eve with, for lack of a better word, a carebear mentality, they certainly do this without having looked at what the mechanics of the game actually are.

There is a built in time before Concord shows up to an act of hostility.  This is intentional, they could easily be instantaneous.

Gate guns have to work their way through sheilds/armor.  This too is intentional, they could easily be instant death poppers.

The faction mini-game exists as it does precisely so it can be used to raise your faction when it gets too low.  That's its intended purpose.

Eve's mechanics are what they are and so who is playing the game wrong?  They guy playing the game?  Or the guy playing a game in his head that's not the one on his computer?

[Fordel]

It isn't a question of playing 'right or wrong'.

What Ing is saying is he won't be playing EVE because of them. Nor any similar game. "Nope, not for me, more power to those who enjoy it."