"Tonight, Tonight" is the best song of the 90s.

[Brogarn]

What made Johnny Cash's version of Hurt superior to Trent's was the video. His shakey hand symbolically pouring out the wine over his life's regrets and accomplishments while his elderly voice rattled out the song. Scenes with June behind him which coincedentally was right before her death. It just added up to make his version the better one. Granted, if you took the song without the video, then ya, Trent's still wins out. But once you've seen the video I don't know how you can listen to the song without thinking of it. Trent's version is good, but Johnny's now breaks my heart.

[ahoythematey]

That's a fair point, and I think could be used as an example of why sometimes a video is a really important part of a song.  The first time I heard Johnny Cash sing it was through the video, so I personally can't tell if it was the video that did it for me or not.  However, I was and remain a really big NIN fan.  Hurt was one of those songs I would repeat after hearing it once whenever it popped up.

From the moment onward that I heard Johnny Cash singing through my tv those lyrics, those words I knew so well, I've thought about his version whenever Hurt is mentioned anywhere.

[stray]

I think another thing to mention is that Johnny's kind of a "grey area" man (despite being the man in black)... You expect this kind of thing from Trent. Johnny otoh humanizes it -- or at least, interprets pain in a more accessible way. Same deal with that Danzig song he covered. Johnny just comes across as more like a sad unlucky bastard in 13 than Glenn could.

Yeah, I probably sound a bit pretentious the way I'm putting it, but I think my point's clear enough.

[Wasted]

Well I don't think Johnny Cash was very big internationally but yeah call me stupid.  I know who he is, haven't really heard much of his music but Its because everyone knows what Johnny Cash is (an American country music performer) that it is a novelty that he has covered a song from a band like NIN.

Do I have to give a dictionary meaning of novelty now?

All the points are valid it still doesn't change the fact the song was used in at least one arena more as a way of affirming how good Trent is (hey a country singer like Johnny Cash can recognise the value of work, so it extends beyond genre) and enjoyed mostly because of the novelty.

[stray]

No, it isn't a novelty. I erred above in saying that he covered a Danzig song. Danzig wrote it for him first. Point being, this shit is right up his alley. He isn't just a country singer. He's Johnny Cash. Not fucking Tim McGraw.

[Wasted]

Well I don't know who Tim McGraw is, and here Johnny Cash is just a country singer, is that so hard to accept?

[ahoythematey]

Only about as hard to accept the notion that humans reproduce asexually.

[stray]

Well I don't know who Tim McGraw is, and here Johnny Cash is just a country singer, is that so hard to accept?

The thing is, this was a dude that got his first hit by singing about shooting a man...just to watch him die. He's always been a dark guy. He was a speedhead... before they invented speed. His best album was taped at a fucking prison of all places. Just not really your garden variety country musician. Or garden variety anything.

[Wasted]

Well I don't know who Tim McGraw is, and here Johnny Cash is just a country singer, is that so hard to accept?

The thing is, this was a dude that got his first hit by singing about shooting a man...just to watch him die. He's always been a dark guy. He was a speedhead... before they invented speed. His best album was taped at a fucking prison of all places. Just not really your garden variety country musician. Or garden variety anything.

Thats still acquired knowledge that you and many others have that have allowed you to get greater enjoyment out of the song and its context.  That information isn't as free internationally especially to those that don't care enough about the genre to investigate it.

[stray]

Fair enough, man. Just not a novelty though.. he's too old and influential a musician to be that anyways. Like a Ray Charles or something. A fucking GIANT who influenced everyone else instead. I mean, bands everywhere from Social Distortion, Nick Cave, Blondie, to Alien Sex Fiend were covering Johnny Cash songs long before he decided to sing something from Trent Reznor.

[Brogarn]

So you're pleading ignorance. There's an argument that always works.

[Engels]

In the US he's robot jesus. in the EU, not so much. Reverse aparently is true with Pulp. We are, after all, at least two different cultures.

[fuser]

...stuff about covers...

Want a great EU cover? The lion sleeps tonight click on heartbeat if you want to die inside as that whole album went #1 in Germany...

[Hoax]

I'm helping...  This song def makes me think of the 90's, even if it did come out in 99.  All good rap is from the 90's imo, just some of it took longer to come out.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=tGoNfgXxD2g

[Brogarn]

All good rap is from the 90's

Just about, ya. I'd add in some of the 80's rap artists as well, but rap was definitely at it's best in the 90's. You have some good artists today as well, but they're not nearly as skilled as the ones from that time period, imo. I mean, can you compare anyone today to Rakim? Honestly? I just can't think of anyone. Eminem is pretty damn good but if you put him against Rakim I just can't see it. If you're thinking "gangsta" rap, does anyone today beat or even compare to NWA? For "alternative" rap I'd say Outkast outshines a lot of their predecessors, though.

Meh, now I have to give this some real thought. Damn you internets.

[Simond]

I like March of the Pigs, but you are fucking bananas if you think it's better than Closer.  That song was everywhere and it's video is slick as hell.

I also like how so many keep mentioning Radiohead but don't even bother throwing a contender into the ring.  The obvious choice would be Karma Police.

I don't know, I sort of like Just - the song's weaker, but the video is better (IMO, natch).

[Grimwell]

Thats still acquired knowledge that you and many others have that have allowed you to get greater enjoyment out of the song and its context.  That information isn't as free internationally especially to those that don't care enough about the genre to investigate it.

Are you fucking kidding?

I didn't even break a nail finding that.

From his early days as a pioneer of rockabilly and rock and roll in the 1950s, to his decades as an international representative of country music, to his resurgence to fame in the 1990s as a living legend and an alternative country icon, Cash influenced countless artists and left a large body of work. Upon his death, Cash was revered by the greatest popular musicians of his time.

Yeah, just some random schlep that nobody outside of hick bars have ever heard of. If you are a fan of English speaking music, you know Johnny Cash even if you have not heard every song. The man touched so much... to claim not knowing of him as some kind of defense is just lazy.

[Wasted]

Thats still acquired knowledge that you and many others have that have allowed you to get greater enjoyment out of the song and its context.  That information isn't as free internationally especially to those that don't care enough about the genre to investigate it.

Are you fucking kidding?

I didn't even break a nail finding that.

From his early days as a pioneer of rockabilly and rock and roll in the 1950s, to his decades as an international representative of country music, to his resurgence to fame in the 1990s as a living legend and an alternative country icon, Cash influenced countless artists and left a large body of work. Upon his death, Cash was revered by the greatest popular musicians of his time.

Yeah, just some random schlep that nobody outside of hick bars have ever heard of. If you are a fan of English speaking music, you know Johnny Cash even if you have not heard every song. The man touched so much... to claim not knowing of him as some kind of defense is just lazy.

 Look on a national radio station in Australia where the listeners know NIN and Johnny Cash is the outsider then knowledge of him other than he's that big american country music star that was influential in his country is limited.  There is some knowledge but not enough attachment to add the pathos to the song that others elsewhere experienced.

But yeah sorry to be lazy, I'll start researching everything I hear on the radio, would hate to miss out on any necessary extra context.  Heaven forbid you be allowed to judge a song based on how it sounds.

[Abagadro]

Even completely endogenous to the song, Cash's version is better. Reznor sounds like a whiny arm-cutter. Johnny sounds like someone who has lived real pain. I credit Rick Rubin for a lot of that, but Cash brings it home.

[schild]

Heaven forbid you be allowed to judge a song based on how it sounds.

But you didn't, you based it on your exposure to NIN and that Cash was a "novelty." :(

[Wasted]

It was a cool novelty, people liked the song, but yes it was a novelty to have Johnny Cash playing on the station.  I never said it was your dad in a clown suit sort of novelty, it was the novelty of something unexpected and different.

Edit: Yeah most people's dad in a clown suit is probably unexpected and different but I don't mean novelty in the way people seem to be taking it in that is was something silly.

[WindupAtheist]

Johnny Cash's "Hurt" is on par with Shatner's "Common People".  Its all about the novelty

You are wrong, and bad, and should feel bad, and should die feeling bad.

Also, I haven't read every post in this thread, or even most of them, but fuck anyone who doesn't like "Kiss From a Rose" or Seal in general. Right in the ear.

[Azazel]

Look on a national radio station in Australia where the listeners know NIN and Johnny Cash is the outsider then knowledge of him other than he's that big american country music star that was influential in his country is limited.  There is some knowledge but not enough attachment to add the pathos to the song that others elsewhere experienced.

Well I don't think Johnny Cash was very big internationally but yeah call me stupid.  I know who he is, haven't really heard much of his music but Its because everyone knows what Johnny Cash is (an American country music performer) that it is a novelty that he has covered a song from a band like NIN.

Do I have to give a dictionary meaning of novelty now?

All the points are valid it still doesn't change the fact the song was used in at least one arena more as a way of affirming how good Trent is (hey a country singer like Johnny Cash can recognise the value of work, so it extends beyond genre) and enjoyed mostly because of the novelty.

Well I don't know who Tim McGraw is, and here Johnny Cash is just a country singer, is that so hard to accept?

Guys, ignore him. He's obviously a younger guy (in his 20's?) who knows NIN and listens to Triple J ("the national Youth network") which, while it's the only radio station I listen to, it (or Wasted) doesn't exactly represent the whole of the country. The station is actually pretty good overall, but their focus is on "new music" and stuff that doesn't get played on mainstream radio. They don't even play stuff which they were playing a a couple of years ago with the "new music" focus, so unless they're having a retrospective night or something (Richard Kingsmill used to do that good show on Thursday nights). There's fuckall chance of hearing someone like Cash on that station, hence "novelty" for someone with more limited musical exposure.

Cash isn't as big here as he is in the US, of course, but those who know even a little of him would know he is to country what Ray Charles is to, say Rhythm and Blues.

It also depends on how musically cultured you are, to an extent. And while that's a terrible sounding term, it's meant that if you only listen to <genre x> and never ever listen to anything else in your entire life, you'll just know of him as "some American country singer" much like Billy Ray Cyrus. Or that Elvis is "that hound dog guy". And that's pretty much an international thing, I'd say. Ask your average white-boi-gangsta-wannabe Saints Row/GTA playa who Cash is and you'll probably get either "huh?" or a similar answer to "country singer guy."



Also, "all about the novelty" makes you look like a fucking idiot. Cash's version of Hurt, taken entirely on it's own, sans "novelty value" is a fucking amazing song.

As are his versions of The Mercy Seat and Rusty Cage.

[schild]

Don't be age-ist. I'm in my 20s.

[Azazel]

I'm not being ageist and I'm fully aware that you're in your 20s. My point is that younger guys are more likely to not have encountered, or are less likely to have decided to seek out a wide variety of musical tastes and genres. Even if their genre of choice is "alternative".

I'm aware that many of us here on f13 like yourself and Stray and many others have actively listened across many genres (as I did myself, at a young age) but not everyone is like that, and you're more lilkely to have encountered a wide variety of music and genres the older you are simply through additional life experience. Unless you avoid anything but your "safe zone" which I also mentioned.

[lac]

In all fairness, Cash did make some spectacular crap too.

[Azazel]

I'm not what you'd describe as a Cash fan. I like bits and pieces of his stuff, which includes the above covers. Still, with an output like his over so many years, you'd expect a good mix.

[Wasted]

I'm 32 actually, at what age was I supposed to care about country music?  It's about the only genre I have never cared about, I know I am not alone and in people older than me.

No one fucking person represents the whole country and my whole point was that not everyone thinks Cash's version is better especially not enough to qualify it as better than the original so much that it is not funny which is the phrase used.  That just stupid.

And trying to say that triplej playing Johnny Cash isn't a novelty then you either don't know what the word fully means or you didn't listen around the time it was played.

I'm just reporting what happened, I didn't say it was a crap song, I personally don't like it as much. Yes I am a big NIN fan. I'm not telling people that liked it they are wrong, I just saying you haven't discovered a universal truth here.  People are being intentionally oblivious to the point in the normal stupid way.

[Azazel]

I don't care about country either. Or rap. Or techno. Or.. etcetera. Yet there are bits of each of those genres that I like.

You're not alone? That's a non-argument. Noone "is alone" regardless of their opinion on anything. That's why we have NAMBLA and the KKK and Scientologists and Holocaust deniers.
Not that you are any of those, but the point is pretty much noone "is alone" on any opinion thay have, regardless of how great OR fucked up it is.

You were the one going on about how you don't think Cash was very big internationally. Now you're doing the "noone person represents the entire country" thing. Should I just call you stupid as you initially requested? 

First you claimed that the song was a novelty. Now you claim that it was this one radio station playing it that was the novelty. Make up your fucking mind and stop retconning your argument.

You didn't like it as much, that's fine. That's musical opinion/taste. I jumped down your throat based on all the other stupid shit you said. "All about the novelty" and such.

[stray]

I'm 32 actually, at what age was I supposed to care about country music?  It's about the only genre I have never cared about, I know I am not alone and in people older than me.

No one fucking person represents the whole country and my whole point was that not everyone thinks Cash's version is better especially not enough to qualify it as better than the original so much that it is not funny which is the phrase used.  That just stupid.

And trying to say that triplej playing Johnny Cash isn't a novelty then you either don't know what the word fully means or you didn't listen around the time it was played.

I'm just reporting what happened, I didn't say it was a crap song, I personally don't like it as much. Yes I am a big NIN fan. I'm not telling people that liked it they are wrong, I just saying you haven't discovered a universal truth here.  People are being intentionally oblivious to the point in the normal stupid way.

I don't think anyone truly cares whether you like him or not. No need to make yourself a victim of that. It's your reasoning that's lame. And your lack of understanding of what his legacy is...which sure as hell isn't some niche genre thing. This goes beyond Johnny, in fact.. Thinking that he isn't known internationally, like it's some American specific heehaw thing, is like saying Elvis isn't known worldwide, or Chuck Berry, or Ray Charles, or Sinatra, Muddy Waters, or Bob Dylan. He's a big looming face on the Mt. Rushmore of popular music.

Mt. Rushmore, just in case you didn't know, is an American thing. Like Johnny Cash. keke. I don't expect you to understand.  


Anyways, I'm 31. Not sure what age is supposed to indicate.

[Tale]

All good rap is from the 90's

Just about, ya. I'd add in some of the 80's rap artists as well, but rap was definitely at it's best in the 90's.

De La Soul's Three Feet High and Rising (1989) made me a fan. My favourite De La album is Art Official Intelligence vol 1 (Mosaic Thump) which was in 2000. So I couldn't nominate them properly for the '90s.

Say No Go - De La Soul (1989)
Foolin' - De La Soul (2000)

Or all of the Native Tongues together: Doin' Our Own Dang - Jungle Brothers feat. A Tribe Called Quest, De La Soul, and Queen Latifah.

Ah crap, now I've reminded myself of Teenage Fanclub. Great Scottish band from the 1990s.

Fallin' - Teenage Fanclub collaboration with De La Soul
Sparky's Dream - Teenage Fanclub

Need a crystal ball to see her in the morning
And magic eyes to read between the lines.
I took a wrong direction
From a shooting star
In the love dimension
Fading fast from taking this too far.

[Tale]

AHHHHH GOD. I forgot this - anyone else remember it or even like it? Shoegazing wall-of-guitars mid-1990s stuff. For me, it's up there with my original nominations and I forgot it till now.

Vapour Trail - Ride


And now I'm remembering more 1990s British stuff ... did this make it across the Atlantic?

Kill Your Television - Ned's Atomic Dustbin

Unbelievable - EMF

[Wasted]

I said it was a novelty, I was told it wasn't. I say yes it was a novelty here is the context that is was presented as a novelty.  I get told I am wrong.  I say ah yes it actually happened despite all your assertions that everyone is wrong.  I get called an idiot.  Everyone misses the point.

I know what Mt Rushmore is.  I have no emotional attachment to what it represents, that is the difference .  I knew who Johnny Cash was, I knew he was important, it didn't make me appreciate the song so much more that I would think it shits all over the original.  I didn't make me think that the cover was so much better than the original that it isn't funny.  That was the only point I wanted to make, I wasn't shitting on anyone's opinion or enjoyment of the song, just that to dismiss the strength of the original because of it was not right.

[Wasted]

Actually before anyone else writes another condescending as fuck post to me I concede.  I can see people are ascribing this song far more value and representation of his whole career than what I thought.  I was just looking at the song, I could see that it had extra value to fans but I didn't think people where using it broadly to be the focus of their respect and appreciation for the man.  If people think I was being dismissive of him because I enjoyed the song as a novelty, well I was a bit, but not in a way intended to shit over everything he achieved.

[lac]

You just don't love America, do you?