Lost [FINALE SPOILERS PAGE 25 ONWARDS]

[Jobu]

Everyone keeps saying to prevent the "man in black" from leaving the island.

Note Sayid and Jack both wear much blacker shirts than Locke does. Just thought it was curious.

[Teleku]

 

[Jeff Kelly]

I don't think that alignments are as clear cut as any one thinks they are.

Up to now nobody has convinced me yet that Jacob is actually good or that Esau/Flocke/Smoke Monster is actually evil. A lot of people claim that it that is exactly the case but like with any real god/half-god a lot of shit gets attributed to either Jacob or his opponent without any one of them actually aknowledging that they did or didn't do it.

Two thoughts.

1. Where are Smoke Monsters others? Jacob has gathered quite a following over the centuries shouldn't his opponent have a similar posse already?
I suppose he has but since they are not a visible faction they must be part of other groups which makes anything anybody has said questionable at best.

2. I still think Juliet's last words "it worked" have some meaning.

Philosophical speaking good or bad are attributes that people have given to either Jacob or his opponent. I don't think that either of them thinks in such categories. Like Zeus and Hades or Thor and Loki they are immersed in their own little game without regard for their human chesspieces.

Right now I wouldn't want either of them to win because I truts neither. Both have done despicable things to the Islanders and manipulated them into doing their bidding while either one claims to be good and right.

[Tebonas]

So, throwing Desmond down a well and ordering somebody to kill him is not evil?

Neither is telling a mentally unstable person to "go ahead and kill Kate when I don't need her anymore"?

[Ironwood]

Have you even read the Bible ?

[Tebonas]

Sadly, I have more often than I should have. And Old Testament God was an asshole and likely evil.

[Ironwood]

Needs of the Many, bitchfist.

 

[Tebonas]

I would say fuck the Many, but thats what got Sodom obliterated!  

Before we are completely off-topic here. I kind of see Jacob as being able to pull the "For the Greater Good" excuse if he really tries, but Smokemonster kills too freely and without reason to try that defense. Personally I can see it working better as a "Shadows vs Vorlons" thing, but if they choose the "Good vs Evil" axis, Smokemonster is too bloodthirsty to be good.

[Jeff Kelly]

I agree. Yet I don't really see Jacob as being "Good" either.

I don't even think that "Good" vs. "Evil" is the right dynamic here. The point I was trying to make is that the "Good" vs. "Evil" dynamic is something the humans on and off the island attributed to their respective deity/enemy.

Tebonas, I think your mentioning of the old testament is spot on. The god of the israelites cared for his followers but was vengeful if his commandmends were not heeded or if you happened to believe in somebody else. Join or die. Either you believe in me and obey my every command or I will direct my wrath on to you.

In the point of view of the Egyptians or everybody else he would surely be perceived as evil. Vice versa every other deity must have been seen by the israelites as evil and most other pantheons smote unbelievers in a similar fashion at least if you believe the respective mythologies. 

Jacob and his counterpart are both missionaric in nature (they try to aquire followers and convince unbelievers to join their cause) both harbour their own agenda that is until now totally unclear to their followers, both are manipulative bastards that require blind devotion and sacrifices from their followers.

I can't even decide if murdering people (or manipulating your followers into killing) is really so much worse than manipulating the lives of your prospective followers in such a way that they have to end up on your island so that you can use them in your own little game of battle chess.

The others have done their own fair share of killing with the purging of the Dharma Initiative and by killing and manipulating the oceanic survivors.

Both Jacob and Esau employ different means to advance their own plan with Jacob being less overtly evil which might be construed as "good" (for certain values of good) but I don't buy the "good" vs. "evil" schtick, even if it might be exactly what the Lost producers are going for.

[Ironwood]

Yeah, this is a shades of grey discussion.

[Mrbloodworth]

Gosh, now that you bring it up, it was Jacobs boy that got Ben to wipe out the initiative wasn't it. (Richard)

[Reg]

That seems fairly evil. The Dharma initiative didn't seem like such bad people. Still, there was a time travel loop involved there. Jacob's hands may have been tied in order to get the candidates back where they belong.

[Samwise]

Remember when the Others took Ben and healed him, and said he'd be "different" afterward?  And you know how Sayid has been since they "healed" him?  I'm pretty sure there's a connection there.  We've also seen cases where the Others have apparently worked with or controlled the smoke monster.  And there was that casual throwaway line at the cabin of "Jacob hasn't lived there in a long time," which might suggest that Ben was mistaken about who and what and where Jacob was all along.

Which is to say, I'm not convinced that everything the Others do is representative of Jacob.

[Teleku]

Yeah, last episode they finally admitted smoke monster had been running around the island pretending to look like other people to fuck with the survivors all this time.  I'm sure he was pretending to be Jacob to fuck with Ben as well.  He's been playing the very very long con on all this to get off the island.

[Samwise]

But he couldn't have been pretending to be Jacob all this time, since Jacob wasn't dead yet.  Right?

OTOH Ben had never seen Jacob, or so he claimed, so Smokey wouldn't have had to look like him to fool Ben.

[HaemishM]

I'm pretty sure Smokey has impersonated Jacob a shitton of times. By the time he was killed, it seemed like Jacob had retreated to the statue of Anubis.

[Teleku]

But he couldn't have been pretending to be Jacob all this time, since Jacob wasn't dead yet.  Right?

OTOH Ben had never seen Jacob, or so he claimed, so Smokey wouldn't have had to look like him to fool Ben.

Yeah, thats what I think.  He didn't make himself look like the actual Jacob to fool people, since only a few knew wtf Jacob actually looked like.

[Evil Elvis]

But he couldn't have been pretending to be Jacob all this time, since Jacob wasn't dead yet.  Right?

OTOH Ben had never seen Jacob, or so he claimed, so Smokey wouldn't have had to look like him to fool Ben.

Yeah, thats what I think.  He didn't make himself look like the actual Jacob to fool people, since only a few knew wtf Jacob actually looked like.

Richard should have known.  Richard was supposed to be his go-between, so why didn't he take Locke to see Jacob?

I think some of these inconsistencies are just from them changing their minds mid-story.

[MrHat]

But he couldn't have been pretending to be Jacob all this time, since Jacob wasn't dead yet.  Right?

OTOH Ben had never seen Jacob, or so he claimed, so Smokey wouldn't have had to look like him to fool Ben.

Yeah, thats what I think.  He didn't make himself look like the actual Jacob to fool people, since only a few knew wtf Jacob actually looked like.

Maybe Smokey has been playing Jacob the whole time and the real Jacob is that little boy we keep seeing.

::mind,blown::

[Sir T]

This is sounding more and more like the plot of star trek V 

[Abagadro]

This is sounding more and more like the plot of star trek V 

What does the devil need with a 737?

[Teleku]

I am ireked that any of the survivors actually think the plane is a viable way to get off the island.  Even if it hadn't crashed and was still in perfect condition, theres no fucking way they'd be able to get a 737 off the ground without an actual runway.

[Rishathra]

Especially with a living, relatively sane and cogent pilot in their midst who could pipe in at any time to knock them out of their fantasy, but he doesn't.

[Samwise]

Wait, who among the survivors thinks they're going to use the plane to escape?  I thought that was Smokey's plan (or at least the plan he sold his group).   Frank's with Sawyer, who was planning on using the sub.

[Mrbloodworth]

Yeah, sawyer wants the sub.

[Teleku]

Yeah, I'm just saying that on the surface, everybody still acts like thats viable (even the other guys running around with locke).  In reality, if smoky said, "Hey, theres a crashed 737 on a beach over there.  We can just fly it off the island!", everybody would just stare at him like he's retarded.

[Abagadro]

The Others built a runway over on Hydra Island.  Kate was forced to work on it when she was in captivity in Season 3.  The plane actually landed on it.

[Rishathra]

It was only a runway in the sense that it prevented the plane from erupting into a fireball the moment it hit the ground.

Wait, who among the survivors thinks they're going to use the plane to escape?  I thought that was Smokey's plan (or at least the plan he sold his group).   Frank's with Sawyer, who was planning on using the sub.

True, but the main reason for them to use the sub is for diversionary purposes, not because they think the plane itself isn't viable.

[Samwise]

The Others built a runway over on Hydra Island.

Hey, is there any chance that the runway construction was done at Smokey's direction as part of his master plan?

[tazelbain]

The Others built a runway over on Hydra Island.

Hey, is there any chance that the runway construction was done at Smokey's direction as part of his master plan?

Just another item on the list of crazy shit the Others did in sprite of the fact they didn't have the fucking smallest idea of what was going on.  I know your brain is searching for patterns to indicate there was plan all a long but that's just not the case. Frankly the only way Lost is going to make sense is a plan being retrofitted on all the "clues" and a discrete burial of ill fitting clues.  To this end, Lost has done a masterful job.

[Samwise]

I don't really care whether the writers had everything planned out ahead of time as long as the final product is an entertaining story.  And it's been entertaining so far, so I ain't complaining yet.

[tazelbain]

I am sure the ending will be good, but some of this continuity just bugs me.  And the Stupidity of the Others is the top. Remember when the biggest question of Lost was "Who were these bad-ass jungle Ninja stalking the survivors?".  The answer "The biggest chumps to ever walk the Face of Earth" is hardly satisfying.  I understand writers did it to preserve the mystery, but it just doesn't make any sense.

[Paelos]

Remember when Walt was important?

[Ozzu]

Remember when Walt was important?

He was an alright child actor, but then he grew up and became a poor adult actor. I'm guessing they stopped having him be "important" because of that.

[Furiously]

The Others built a runway over on Hydra Island.  Kate was forced to work on it when she was in captivity in Season 3.  The plane actually landed on it.

Alaska Airlines used to land 737's on gravel runways.