Lost [FINALE SPOILERS PAGE 25 ONWARDS]

[Paelos]

Yes, the book scene was pretty epic. The timing was without a doubt the best part of the show. I just know they are fucking with their audience at this point, and they keep adding layers to the battles of the destiny v. free will. First it was Jack and Locke, then it was Widmore and Ben, now it's Jacob and this dude.

Who's the last man behind the curtain?

[Nevermore]

I caught on pretty early on that 'Locke' wasn't Locke.  As soon as he told Ben that he would be the one to kill Jacob, it was very obvious that 'Locke' was the mystery antagonist.

What I'm most curious about is how much of the symbolism is calculated and how much is just thrown out there.  The statue was of Sobek, an Egyptian crocodile god, but as far as I remember he isn't the god of anything in particular other than crocodiles.  He is considered a 'righter of wrongs' and enemy of evil, which is why he depicted with the ankh, but he's not necessarily 'good'.  Jacob weaving at the beginning set off all kinds of warning bells as that's a classic depiction of the weaver at the loom of time, although that could make him a creator, caretaker or manipulator.  I wonder if the writers will take a page from Neil Gaiman and it turns out Jacob and the antagonist are what's left of two old gods.

On another note, was that supposed to be the Black Rock at the beginning of the episode?

[Soln]

I'm with Abagadro on this.  I also am curious about Claire and Christian at the end of s4.  Could be Jacob and other dude are both trapped and there is a third and evil wheel (smoke).  All this this Set /Osiris stuff is interesting (both gods of the dead).

[Ozzu]

I've been thinking even more about this episode and just how tragic it is that Locke wasn't actually special at all. His entire life has been one tragedy after another and the character was one that I was really pulling for to have some sort of greater role or meaning. It appears that he'll end up just like he always ended up in the past, a failure.

It's actually pretty damn 

[Quinton]

The writers are total bastards.  I enjoyed it a lot.  But they are still total bastards.

They actually managed to make me feel bad for Ben too.  Even though I've always been a bit sympathetic to that lying manipulative bastard ^^

Looking forward to see if they have some suitable epic way to tie this up now.  Hoping we get some Jacob backstory in S6.  Glad that they haven't killed Ben off yet.  Maybe he gets a redemption arc after all.  Or maybe they're just fucking with us.

Also, if Locke isn't Locke:
1. Did smokey and the ghost of Alex know?
2. Is Ben still bound to obey "Locke"?
3. Bloody hell!

Any bets as to if they'd go so far as to open up on flight 815 pre-crash in S6E1.... that'd really make my head hurt.

[Xerapis]

My favorite line of the evening?

"I'm a Pisces"

Not sure exactly why, but it made me laugh my ass off.

[Evil Elvis]

Ghost Alex - and every other dead person on the island, including Christian  - were all Jacob's enemy.

[Arthur_Parker]

I thought that was pretty terrible, the pistol shoot out scene even had a guy fall onto sand, I had an A-Team flashback.  Jacob at the end can't say "Hey Ben, just a minor detail but that's not really Locke, it just looks like him", probably against the rules or something.

So everybody is a chess piece, Gods or Aliens, I'm going with Aliens.

[tazelbain]

I disagree that the loophole is Ben using Free Will to kill Jacob.  Ben is the determinism poster child.  Ruled by his insecurities, he doesn't have an enlightened bone in his body.  His motivation for killing Jacob was revenge and self-preservation.  Even when he finally committed the act it a lashing out because his feelings were hurt rather than deliberate act.  The loophole wasn't Ben's Free Will but Ben's Psychosis.  Jacob had little regard for Ben because Ben's nature is anti-antithetical to Jacob's.

I feel like I want choose sides, but does look like battle of abstractions. When the number 3 goes to war against the color Orange, how can you choose sides.  

It does seem that island still independent of Jacob and Anti-jacob.  Although I am not sure Anti-jacob rule will be any worse than Jacob's.  One possibility is this resets board.  Ben would be back in charge of the Other's(although fragmented a bit).  Jacob's Chosen will battle them because ideology conflict will continue.  

Maybe it's island wishes to be free of the Demigods.  Or maybe Kate, Jack, Sawyer, Sayid, Jin, Sun and Hurley represent a new paradigm to take their place.  Of course if they fail, Ben could be the new paradigm.

[MrHat]

Anyone else get the impression that Jacob was goading Ben on to kill him.  I mean, he could've said a lot of things that weren't "What about you? ::raised eyebrow::".

I can totally see Ben being the primary star of the last season.  He's already stolen the show.  Everyone else imo is secondary.

Gods, free will, determinism.  You all might be overthinking it.  It could be as simple as a group of ancient people managed someone to get to the island.  Noticed awesome properties.  Lived there.  Eventually died.  For thousands of years, the last 2 were at odds.  Eventually, you grow to hate the other guy.  They've been there long enough to maybe figure out a few things about the island, and time, and life, and Not-Jacob decided he's tired of sitting around and wants something, anything, to change, and went about doing it by killing Jacob.  And Jacob counter'd him with some grand plan about throwing some variables into Not-Jacob's plans (oceanic's).

Or something.

Dunno, I got a bit weepy when Juliet went crashing.

[Soln]

So who is "dead" now?

s5
Juliet
Daniel
Sayid (fuk)
Locke (fawk!)
Charlotte

s4
Charlie
Claire (I guess)
Michael
Walt (sort of)

fill in rest

[Soln]

Ghost Alex - and every other dead person on the island, including Christian  - were all Jacob's enemy.

yeah agreed

Also, did everyone notice that for every character Jacob met at whatever age he touched them?  Even handing Sawyer the pen?  Just sayin -- he didnt just engineer stuff, he had to mark who would be on the island, as it were.  Even bringing John back from the dead.

[ashrik]

He got his immortal stank all over them, giving them time-changing variable powers.

At first, I thought, he was engaging in a small activity that would help them become who they were but that seems someone specious. Kate may not have been a bad-ass biddy all her life if she hadn't gotten bailed out just then. But Sawyer definitely would have written that note, just with another pen, and Sun & Jin would still love each other tenderly. But I really do think it was the touch. Either marking them, making them special, or who knows.

[Nevermore]

Anyone else get the impression that Jacob was goading Ben on to kill him.  I mean, he could've said a lot of things that weren't "What about you? ::raised eyebrow::".

I can totally see Ben being the primary star of the last season.  He's already stolen the show.  Everyone else imo is secondary.

Gods, free will, determinism.  You all might be overthinking it.  It could be as simple as a group of ancient people managed someone to get to the island.  Noticed awesome properties.  Lived there.  Eventually died.  For thousands of years, the last 2 were at odds.  Eventually, you grow to hate the other guy.  They've been there long enough to maybe figure out a few things about the island, and time, and life, and Not-Jacob decided he's tired of sitting around and wants something, anything, to change, and went about doing it by killing Jacob.  And Jacob counter'd him with some grand plan about throwing some variables into Not-Jacob's plans (oceanic's).

Or something.

Dunno, I got a bit weepy when Juliet went crashing.

If I'm remembering the opening sequence correctly, if anything the antagonist is upset because of a loss of the status quo since it appears Jacob did something to allow that ship (which I still think is the Black Rock and who's crew is probably the original 'others') to approach the island.

[Special J]

Godamn, that was  . But in a good way.  Had a four hour marathon watching the two episodes leading up to the finale.  I missed the first 3-4 minutes I was confused about Jacob's enemy and the 'loophole'. Reading a synopsis its a little more clear.  I'll be going crazy waiting for s6.  

I have to assume history hasn't changed and "whatever happened..." but I can't put it past the writers to fuck with me even more.

The only thing that annoyed the ever living shit out of me in this one was how many times people changed their minds about Jack's plan. Just seemed like it was all there to drag it out to two hours.

In case you didn't look it up, according to Lostpedia: Richard Alpert responded to the question of "What lies in the shadow of the statue?" with "Ille qui nos omnes servabit" - “He who will protect/save us all.”

[HaemishM]

Locke is the guy who sat with Jacob at the end. He is the trickster, the devil, while Jacob is God.

The entire show is quite obviously a 6-season homage to the battle episodes between the Devil and Mr. Roarke on Fantasy Island.

Also, my first words after the screen went white at the end? Motherfuckers.

2010 is SO LONG.

[Paelos]

So the answer to "What lies in the shadow of the statue" was "He who will save us all" in Latin. The authors are trying to obviously set Jacob up as some kind of hero. In the beginning, he's wearing white, his rival wears black. His rival wants to kill him, and he seems indifferent. The scene is open to a lot of interpretations, but it breaks down like this:

Jacob's rival is there because of the ship, which Jacob arranged to show up. We assume it's the Black Rock.
Jacob's rival says Jacob is still trying to prove him wrong. "They come, they fight, they destroy, and they corrupt, and it always ends the same."
Jacob says, "It only ends once, anything else that happens before that is progress."

I assume Jacob's rival wants to get rid of humanity in this scene. It's obviously not the first time that humans have shown up on the island, and they both know how it's gone in the past because they are immortals. It also seems that Jacob is fighting against the time loop here. The rival seems to believe in the inevitable outcome, while Jacob is trying to shift it off that outcome.

I think the Biblical connections between Jacob and his brother Esau are being heavily used by the writers to create this rivalry. I also think that the statue is Sobek, who was a rather ambiguous god in terms of good/evil. This plays into my theory that there are no good guys here at the top.

[Arthur_Parker]

Isn't there a whole thing about having real difficulty giving birth on the island?  If Esau (might as well call him that for now) doesn't want people on the island he might have something to do with that.  Also if Jacob has to be involved to get you to the island, does that mean Esau brought the army just to get the atom bomb?  Jacob's followers killed the army personnel but let Daniel guide them to bury the bomb, not Jacob.

[Paelos]

In an interview with Terry O'Quinn:

As for his character, O’Quinn says he’s really gone. Locke’s dead body was rolled out of a metal box toward the end of the two-hour episode, baffling islanders who had been following a Locke imposter. Exactly who is now occupying Locke’s body wasn’t revealed. O’Quinn said it would be “a good guess” to assume it’s a man seen with the infamous Jacob in the beginning of the episode.

“I think, unfortunately, I think it’s ended for Locke. But I’m still there, as far as I know,” O’Quinn said. “I don’t know how it’s going to end for this other guy. I’m sad. I miss John Locke, poor guy. He was a pawn.”

O’Quinn is gearing up to play a new character when the sixth season begins next year. As for the rest of the story line, he swears he has no idea.

“Your guess is honestly as good as mine is,” he said. “There’s going to be some confrontation that will somehow, I’m guessing, have to do with Jack or Locke or something like that. I think these guys are just setting up good and evil. It’s the way Locke said in the very beginning of the show: One is light and one is dark. Two sides. I think that’s what we’ve got.”

[Cadaverine]

Is the the 6th season going to be the last?  I watched it here and there at first, but I'm horribad at keeping up w/ tv shows, so I eventually gave up.  Once it's all said and done, though, I'd like to sit down, and watch it all on dvd when time permits.

[Paelos]

6th is last season yes.

[Jeff Kelly]

I kinda necro the thread because I just finished watching Seasons 1 to 5 back to back.

I am a bit lost for words actually. The whole experience has been really awesome and it is one of the most brilliant shows I have watched in years.

It had its share of misses and plotlines that fizzled out or simply didn't work. The best thing they have done however is reducing the episode orders from 24 to 17 and fixing an end date. The ratio of awesome to mediocre episodes really tipped towards better quality after that.

I start with the bad:
This whole Jack, Sawyer, Kate love triangle needs to stop asap. That alone is responsible for nearly all of the stupid and inane plots of the last 5 seasons. Ice Bear Cages. Depressed Emo Jack. Stubborn emo Jack. With the addition of Juliette to the cast it went on to a whole new dimension of stupid by adding her to the now quadrangle of bad plots and Jack being a stupid douche.

This ultimately led to the stupid plot of "I need to jump down into this hole full of electromagnetism because Sawyer looked funny at Kate" and the demise of Juliette which I am still totally furious about. Seriously Kate needs to go and somebody needs to write Jack's character in a different way because right now he is a totally irresponsible douche.

On second thought both need to go, they both serve no purpose at all any more.

Kate and Jack are by far my most hated characters on the show. They are solely used by the writers as devices for stupidly advancing the plot in certain directions. It's a bad case of plot driven development in which case the characters act all kinds of stupid because the story needs to move in a certain direction.

As Sawyer said in "Namaste". He thinks problems through because Jack's approach of just reacting usually leads to people dying

If they wanted to keep the angle of "Rationality" vs. "Faith" they should have stuck with Locke vs. Eko.

Also they have a lot of far better actors and better designed characters to choose from anyway.

The good:

For a network TV show the story is extremely well crafted. For a show where a lot of the plot each season is basically made up as they go along (Even if they have a plot outline they never know for certain if they aren't cancelled, if certain actors are or keep available etc.) it has only a few plot holes and unconnected threads.

The characters - with the exception of Jack and Kate - are usually well written and multi dimensional although they sometimes go a bit overboard with the back story and the coincidences. It also has a good ratio of drama and mystery and they keep resolving some things which is at least some payoff and helps them prevent the X-fileization of the plot.

I especially like that they don't hang on to cast members or keep adding new ones if they prove to be good. Adding Desmond, Miles, Ben, Richard and Juliette to the cast were good moves as were killing off a few of the more unnecessary ones. It keeps the story fresh.

However it is sometimes sad that really good characters get killed of too soon (at least in my opinion). Faraday for example.

I am really looking forward to Season 6 although they seem to divert from the "whatever happened happened". The comicon teasers - if they are any indication of season 6 - seem to suggest that they did change the future by creating the incident.

[tazelbain]

I was okay with the love story as a gimmick increase the the show's appeal to women until the end of s5.  The Juliet character went off the deep end.  Which is disappointing because I liked her more than Kate.  It also makes more sense to me that Juliet would ditch Sawyer with the return of Jack then become proactively jealous of Kate.

[Ozzu]

I found Jack to extremely douchey at points during the series, but I thought that once he was actually doing something other than being a douche, like attempting to advance the plot towards the end of season 5, I started liking him again.

[Rishathra]

Like Jerry Maguire, I like the man that Jack almost is.  One of my favorite episodes in the series is the one that reveals the origin and meaning of Jack's tattoo.  Turning to the smug, condescending Sheriff and saying, "That's what it says - not what it means" was a great moment. 

Unfortunately, that episode had me looking forward to the fulfillment of Jack's "destiny" as being a great leader who is saddened and angered by the separation being a leader causes.  Well, he's managed to nail the emo/angry bits alright.  Still waiting on the "great leader" part.

[Lucas]

I like how Jack is ultimately flawed as a person, with very evident weaknesses. And I also liked him a lot during the first two season...Then, yeah, Carlton and Cuse focused too much on the triangle or whatever.  Both authors also hinted that they wanted to create a nice contraposition between Locke and Eko, to be further explored in season three and possibly beyond, but the actor portraying Mr. Eko simply couldn't stand staying in Hawaii for such long periods of time, and simply asked to be written off, or something like that.

[Paelos]

Jack's character hasn't been cool in 3 seasons. Kate's character has completely stopped making any sense.

I want Claire back, I want Eko back, I want Daniel back, I want the real Locke back, hell I'd even like to see what Boone would be like at this stage on the Island. The funny part is that the writers believe they've written a great leadership character in Jack.

[Abagadro]

Jack's character hasn't been cool in 3 seasons. Kate's character has completely stopped making any sense.

I want Claire back, I want Eko back, I want Daniel back, I want the real Locke back, hell I'd even like to see what Boone would be like at this stage on the Island. The funny part is that the writers believe they've written a great leadership character in Jack.

I don't think they think that at all.

[HaemishM]

What he said. Jack is in no way a great leadership character, nor is he portrayed to be. He's a reactionary - he just reacts, very rarely thinks and usually ends up fucking up. I mean, HE GOT WHAT HE WANTED (Kate in the real world) and he wasn't happy. He started boozing and pill-popping again, and totally fucked the whole relationship up. Didn't he even lose his medical license? He is a tragically self-destructive character whose only solace seems to be leading people on the island - but he fucks that up too, so he keeps trying to unfuck it.

[ashrik]

God, I can't stand Jack and Kate.

That moment when Jack turned to Sawyer(?) and told him he needed to go back and the root cause of everything was his love for Kate took his character from irrational reactionary leader to pure stupid town.
All I could think of was "Her? What is she, funny or something?" She's been nothing but a weirdly neurotic somehow siren-like woman who's main response to most stimuli appears to be clamming up and running.   gahhh

Jack turning to her and saying "You didn't like the old me, Kate" was a triumph and a highpoint for his character. To the fellow who thought the tattoo episode was one of the best, I believe you to be nuts

[Rishathra]

Jack turning to her and saying "You didn't like the old me, Kate" was a triumph and a highpoint for his character. To the fellow who thought the tattoo episode was one of the best, I believe you to be nuts

In my defense, it wasn't because of all the weird shit with Bai Ling.  I meant more that it was a favorite in terms of the development of his character.  I stand by my declaration of the awesomeness of the burn he gave to the Sheriff.  "You didn't like the old me, Kate" was another excellent one, I agree.

[Gunzwei]

After hearing about this show for years I finally sat down this past week and watched seasons 1-5 straight through. Excellent show for the most part.

Kate needed to be written off in season 1/2 or better yet not included as a character to begin with. The romance arcs with her do not work at all. There's no sense of emotional investment with the character that you get with Sun/Jin, Charlie/Claire, Sawyer/Juliet, or Desmond/Penelope. Even Sayid and Shannon (which I read was a joke idea pitched by the actor playing Sayid) was more believable than Kate with anyone.

Jack's character got mishandled and should have gone darker beyond season 2 which I thought was where the character was supposed to be heading by the whole "you should have listened and let us torture ben" ending. Again I'll put the blame for this on the love triangle fuckery.

Aside from that minor complaint the rest of the cast has been excellent. The story has had a few patched holes here and there but otherwise it's been really good. The foreshadowing at times is beautifully done such as how the chain of manipulation with Locke's father being killed by Sawyer leads to how Ben is manipulated into killing Jacob. I'm guessing season 6 will start off, or at least get into ealry on, the origin of Jacob.

[Jeff Kelly]

Lost returns on tuesday, February 2 at 9 with a two hour season premiere, regular timeslot for lost will be tuesdays at 9.

[Ookii]

I want to hump your leg like a dog.

[Jeff Kelly]

I want to hump your leg like a dog.

You'd have to buy me dinner first