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Reply #6370 on: May 14, 2019, 08:40:50 AM

She has been doing crazy shit from the start.  The difference is that she was also doing kinder, merciful stuff at the same time and had effective advisors tempering her actions.

There is a SIGNIFICANT difference between burning slavers while freeing slaves and torching a city including women and children indiscriminately. Both are brutal, but one is targeted and has a justification while the other is just wanton slaughter and collective punishment.

I'd have to rewatch the series but I seem to remember there was at least one time where a discussion similar to this happened:

Dany: Screw it, I'm going to burn their whole city down.
Advisor: Orrrr...we could, you know, take the city by other means and just kill their leaders.
Dany: FINE! Let's try that....

Dany: I don't want to be queen of the ashes.
Everyone else: Here is how.
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Reply #6371 on: May 14, 2019, 08:54:42 AM

*tip toes into thread and veeery subtly spreads her pro-Cersei message*












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Reply #6372 on: May 14, 2019, 09:30:52 AM

Nice try, but two wrongs don't make a right.  awesome, for real

The only reasonably sane, competent leader in this whole bunch might be Sansa.
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Reply #6373 on: May 14, 2019, 09:42:08 AM

The thing I really wanted to get out of Cersei in the last episode was just one moment of self-awareness before she died.  One moment of "oh shit, maybe I should have not fucked over and killed so many people who could have been my allies, maybe some of my kids would still be alive and I wouldn't be about to get gutted like a fish and/or incinerated by one of the many people who now have excellent reasons to hate me."  

Whimpering "I don't want to die" before a rock fell on her head didn't count.

I might have also accepted the Hound casually skewering her similarly to how the Mountain squished Qyburn.  Maybe with a cool one-liner like "a friend of mine wanted you to have this".
« Last Edit: May 14, 2019, 09:44:50 AM by Samwise »

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Reply #6374 on: May 14, 2019, 09:42:58 AM

She has been doing crazy shit from the start.  The difference is that she was also doing kinder, merciful stuff at the same time and had effective advisors tempering her actions.

There is a SIGNIFICANT difference between burning slavers while freeing slaves and torching a city including women and children indiscriminately. Both are brutal, but one is targeted and has a justification while the other is just wanton slaughter and collective punishment.

I'd have to rewatch the series but I seem to remember there was at least one time where a discussion similar to this happened:

Dany: Screw it, I'm going to burn their whole city down.
Advisor: Orrrr...we could, you know, take the city by other means and just kill their leaders.
Dany: FINE! Let's try that....

Dany: I don't want to be queen of the ashes.
Everyone else: Here is how.

Here is a reddit thread from 9 months ago that breaks down why Dany would be burning cities in Westeros and is one of the two great threats in the show. Turns out the author was right.

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/90z309/spoilers_main_the_queen_of_ashes_foreshadowing/

You can easily argue that her final turn was handled poorly because they ran out of time but continuing to try to pretend it was never foreshadowed at all is just silly.

Also from an article on EW:

https://ew.com/tv/2019/05/13/game-of-thrones-daenerys-mad-queen/

There are other reddit posts and articles and Quara threads going back years where people lay out the evidence from the Books and/or the show and predict Dany will go mad. I was holding out hope it was all a misdirect but Season 8 made it pretty clear it wasn't going to be.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
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Reply #6375 on: May 14, 2019, 09:43:22 AM

Either way, it was a good little detail.

Choice of bells?  I don't follow that one.


I meant the choice to use bells at all. Dothraki put bells on things to signify victories, so a Dothraki charge comes with the sound of bells.

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Reply #6376 on: May 14, 2019, 10:11:06 AM



It actually was only 500k per episode, but the sentiment stands. o7




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Reply #6377 on: May 14, 2019, 12:05:03 PM

The sad fact is they reduced all their strong female leads to caricatures of themself in a few hours screentime. I'm not even sure anymore if the big ending twist isn't Arya crawling back to Gendry and asking him to be his lady after all. Hell, the only self-determined and strong woman remaining is Sansa, and she all but said she is that way because of the magical power of being raped.

Not that the man fare much better in characterisation, but the change in the women is astonishingly bad.  
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Reply #6378 on: May 14, 2019, 12:12:33 PM

Well OK, but self determined and strong men at this point are what, Bran and Sam?

You also have Gilly, Brienne, Sansa and honestly I don't think Arya lost anything here. She just got to make a grown up decision.

The episode put Tyrion, Jon, Dany, and Cersei at rock bottom. Admittedly Dany and Cersei aren't likely coming back from it.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2019, 12:15:15 PM by eldaec »

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Reply #6379 on: May 14, 2019, 12:14:13 PM

The sad fact is they reduced all their strong female leads to caricatures of themself in a few hours screentime. I'm not even sure anymore if the big ending twist isn't Arya crawling back to Gendry and asking him to be his lady after all. Hell, the only self-determined and strong woman remaining is Sansa, and she all but said she is that way because of the magical power of being raped.

Not that the man fare much better in characterisation, but the change in the women is astonishingly bad. 

We're still talking about the show where the arc for one of these strong female leads in the first season was her falling in love with the guy she was forced to marry and have sex with right?
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Reply #6380 on: May 14, 2019, 12:26:28 PM

Even if you foreshadow something you still need to write yourself there, you can't just make it happen all of the sudden and then go "but i foreshadowed it!".

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Reply #6381 on: May 14, 2019, 01:37:12 PM

Hell, the only self-determined and strong woman remaining is Sansa, and she all but said she is that way because of the magical power of being raped.


Please. This is such a dumb misreading of what she said. You're not alone in it, it's all over the internet. She was acknowledging she was put through a crucible and came out stronger on the other side. Ramsey's rape was only a small part of that. There was everything that happened in King's Landing. There was having to survive Littlefinger's manipulations and yes, there was Ramsey. If they'd left that one single rape scene out of it, no one would be saying this kind of stupid shit. They'd be going "Hell yes she was made stronger by surviving all that horrible shit." She flat out took ownership of her life in that moment and people want to turn her into a victim over it.

Even if you foreshadow something you still need to write yourself there, you can't just make it happen all of the sudden and then go "but i foreshadowed it!".

They should have made season 7 and 8 into full seasons. Those extra 7 episodes would have let these storylines breath better. We could've gotten the equivalent of the "One year later" title card with say 3-4 episodes between "The Long Night" and "Bells" where we got to see more of Dany's increasing isolation and anger and more build up between Jaime and Brienne.

As it is, the first 5-6 seasons were the equivalent of the Extended versions of Fellowship of the Ring and The Two Towers while Season 7 and 8 are like getting an 80 minute version of the Return of the King with all the rushed feeling that implies. So Frodo and Sam skip from looking at the Gate of Mordor to Frodo walking into Mount Doom and going "The Ring is mine!!!"

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
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Reply #6382 on: May 14, 2019, 01:44:39 PM

Season 8 is over 7 hours long.

That is longer than Shakespeare directors generally take to cover the entire Henry VI trilogy.

Complain about the writing if you want. But they have had plenty of time to send one character mad.

And tbh between the arguments with Jon and Missandei's death I wasn't at all confused about the whole madness plot line.

I actually like how dialog light they've been this year. The writers are bad writing but the directors have been pretty good at showing.

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Reply #6383 on: May 14, 2019, 01:50:35 PM

*tip toes into thread and veeery subtly spreads her pro-Cersei message*




Minor quibble:  If she burned all the kids alive as well, then she didn't technically orphan anyone, hm?   Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

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Reply #6384 on: May 14, 2019, 02:24:56 PM

I actually like how dialog light they've been this year. The writers are bad writing but the directors have been pretty good at showing.

There have been moments in this season where it looked like the actors wanted to say a line of dialogue but there just wasn't a line of dialogue written. That is an impression I've gotten multiple times with multiple characters. The writing has been bad with lots of time taken doing somethings while other things have been rushed through. The last 1 1/2 episodes have all felt like they were trying to tell 3-5 episodes worth of events in 2, and that's with an extra 20 minutes + for each episode.

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Reply #6385 on: May 14, 2019, 03:54:18 PM

Given the choice, I'd almost rather watch the last 2 seasons of Sons of Anarchy than this crap that has passed for a season.

I really hope that George has some better, more graceful ideas on how to take some of these subjects. White walkers? Just frost plot vampires. Lord of Light? An on demand Zippo. Dany, fuckin' bonkers that her nephew won't bang her anyone. John? Giant pussy. Need to kill a dragon? Just ambush it with a flying sharp object that it could easily dodge or should honestly just bounce off it. Same dragon killing plot arrows? If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge an arrow.  Arya? Sometimes super soldier, sometimes little girl. Tyrion. Smartest dipshit to ever walk.

I just don't know how you can do everything in such a dumb and inconsistent manner. It's like different people wrote these episodes without talking to each other or reading what was previously done. It's the TV version of a game of telephone.


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Reply #6386 on: May 14, 2019, 04:58:52 PM

I would not pin hopes on GRRM. That way likes sadness.
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Reply #6387 on: May 14, 2019, 06:06:12 PM

I would not pin hopes on GRRM. That way likes sadness.
We get it: you don't like GRRM. Lots of us liked the books, and are hoping for some satisfying closure. Let us hope!

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Reply #6388 on: May 14, 2019, 06:08:25 PM

I've said it before, I'll say it again. GRRM has no incentive to finish those damn books, ever. None. Period. He can sit back on his fat ass collecting royalty checks without ever having to prove that "oh the book ending would have been so much better than the TV ending."

It would have been longer, more contrived and with a fuckton more characters, but based on those last two books, it wouldn't have been any more satisfying.

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Reply #6389 on: May 14, 2019, 06:18:11 PM

If GRRM had a better ending we would have had it at least half a decade ago. There's nothing but a bunch of vaguely related plot points.

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Reply #6390 on: May 14, 2019, 06:20:00 PM

I think the writers have gone completely off the rails at this point from Martin, but they may have possibly corrupted some plot points.  The books are so different it's almost impossible to setup the same scenario we are at currently.  I'm thinking Aegon, the actual true heir to the Iron Throne, takes the city after further civil war, taking over a shattered realm.  Then the White Walkers come and they destroy Kings Landing.  Dany arrives from her adventures in the east to find Westeros in full apocalypse mode.  Ice and Fire ensues.

Also, remember that ever since the first book, she keeps getting told that she needs to travel east to Asshai first to "pass under the shadow".  She keeps ignoring this because she wants to go west, and is facing total ruin at the end of the last book.  I think next book she goes over there and levels up some more.  Or maybe gets turned into a psycho avatar of the Red God (Asshai is where that religion originated from) when she goes, and comes roaring back in full righteous burn mode, taking out Aegon and burning Kings Landing.

Or maybe Kings Landing doesn't get destroyed at all and the writers just made shit up.

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Reply #6391 on: May 14, 2019, 08:26:21 PM

I would not pin hopes on GRRM. That way likes sadness.
We get it: you don't like GRRM. Lots of us liked the books, and are hoping for some satisfying closure. Let us hope!

I like the books too. The first three at least. The last two went from "meh" to "what the fuck is this shit?" That said, we'll be lucky to get Winds of Winter and Dreams of Spring will only happen if he doesn't forbid it in his will.

I think the writers have gone completely off the rails at this point from Martin, but they may have possibly corrupted some plot points.  The books are so different it's almost impossible to setup the same scenario we are at currently.  I'm thinking Aegon, the actual true heir to the Iron Throne, takes the city after further civil war, taking over a shattered realm.  Then the White Walkers come and they destroy Kings Landing.  Dany arrives from her adventures in the east to find Westeros in full apocalypse mode.  Ice and Fire ensues.

Also, remember that ever since the first book, she keeps getting told that she needs to travel east to Asshai first to "pass under the shadow".  She keeps ignoring this because she wants to go west, and is facing total ruin at the end of the last book.  I think next book she goes over there and levels up some more.  Or maybe gets turned into a psycho avatar of the Red God (Asshai is where that religion originated from) when she goes, and comes roaring back in full righteous burn mode, taking out Aegon and burning Kings Landing.

Or maybe Kings Landing doesn't get destroyed at all and the writers just made shit up.

We know GRRM told them the basics of the ending. The Night King isn't a thing in the books, that was purely show stuff probably to make the white walkers easier to defeat on a TV show timeline and budget. In the books it'll probably be a long drawn out battle at Winterfell.  I'm willing to bet Kings Landing gets destroyed in the books too. GRRM has never made a secret that the series won't have a true happy ending. It'll probably happen differently in the books if we ever see them though.

« Last Edit: May 14, 2019, 08:31:39 PM by Riggswolfe »

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Reply #6392 on: May 14, 2019, 10:19:00 PM

He told them the outline over 5 years ago, and has had almost zero collaboration with the series for the last several seasons.  I mean, this really could be what he told them, but at this point they could have just decided to come up with their own ending as the show progressed and they looked at their time/budget.  Guess we'll never know until GRRM or D&D tell us exactly what they said to each other!

Also, great use of the LOTR meme.   awesome, for real





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Reply #6393 on: May 14, 2019, 11:03:49 PM

The main fault in the episode was that the torching would have made more sense if there had been an actual struggle for the city and she had to use dragon fire indiscriminately, now she did it for no reason at all. Its still a lot better than King's Landing being taken cleanly, that would have been a total sellout and I would have hated the show if Daenerys never torched the place.

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Reply #6394 on: May 14, 2019, 11:06:32 PM

Well yes, as this meme put it:


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Reply #6395 on: May 15, 2019, 01:33:30 AM

April 17, 2011 - Game of Thrones Airs.
July 12, 2011 - Martin Publishes a Dance with Dragons.

Now let's count how many years did these show writers knew they had to abridge some shit.

On April 2011, shortly before the publication of A Dance with Dragons which took him six years to write, Martin hoped that "the last two books will go a little quicker than this one has" and estimated that it would take "three years to finish the next one at a good pace

April 2, 2012 - Season 2 of the TV show. Martin said 3 years to pace himself no need to panic
March 31, 2013 - Season 3 of the TV show. 1 year left. Maybe he'll send us a few outlines???
April 6 2014 - Season 4 (the literal last good season). Its been 3 years and no words from Martin wtf guys

In 2014, Martin's UK publisher, Jane Johnson, stated that the book would not be published before, or in, 2015.[45][46] In April 2015, Martin commented along the same lines[47] but he also said he would like to have it published before the sixth season of the HBO series Game of Thrones (which would cover material from the book) aired in 2016.[48][49] In Autumn 2015, statements made by the Spanish editor and the Polish translator of the novel indicated that it was expected to be published in 2016.[50][51][52][53]

Let's assume that a multimillion dollar tv show on HBO with a movie budget per episode is literally being written at the last minute. I.E the new season is being written as the last season ends. You'd figure at this point you should be panicking. At this point a good amount of Dance with Dragons has been adopted and along with a Feast for Crows. Another quote about Martin


Martin is only firm about ending the series with the seventh novel "until I decide not to be firm".[23] With his stated goal of telling the story from beginning to end, he will not truncate the story to fit into an arbitrary number of volumes.[39] He knows the ending in broad strokes as well as the future of the main characters,[27] and will finish the series with bittersweet elements where not everyone will live happily ever after.[37] Martin hopes to write an ending similar to The Lord of the Rings that he felt gave the story a satisfying depth and resonance. On the other hand, Martin noted the challenge to avoid a situation like the finale of the TV series Lost, which left some fans disappointed by deviating too far from their own theories and desires.[21] In 2012, Martin had acknowledged his concerns about A Dream of Spring not being completed by the time the TV series Game of Thrones catches up in its storyline to the novels.[71] In 2015, Martin said that he was not writing A Dream of Spring together with The Winds of Winter,[72] and in early 2016, he said he did not believe A Dream of Spring would be published before the last season of the HBO show.[73] In April 2018, Martin commented he had not started working on the book

D&D your FUCKED. FUCKED I say. As early as 2012. 2012 GRRM told you that your not going to get a finished script. But its 2014, if they were waiting for a winds of winter and maybe going on a hiatus... that's done because

April 12, 2015 - Season 5 of the TV. The story is cutting corners in order to slim the number of loose ends in the final product.  Knowing that the source material has dried up they choose to

*Have LittleFinger marry Sansa, the literal key to the future of his plans to take over the iron throne and a the teenage girl he's been lusting after for years in place of her mother..... to Ramsey Bolton
*Have Stannis sacrifice his daughter in order to lose the fight for winterfell anyway
*The entirety of Dorne

Season 4 took its shortcuts, but it gets pretty bad from here. At this point the abridging has to begin...the show writers must be carefully crafting the scenarios that will pay off in season 8... right??

April 24, 2016 - Season 6 of the TV show. Ok, book fans hit peak rage right around here. Kings Landing has the only shred of book material left and everything else is failing around it. Book fans wail and gnash their teeth at poor writing and bone headed decision making by previously smart characters but who cares. Battle of Bastards? FUCK YEAH. DRAGONS?!? ROAR!!! Killing the entirety of the Tyrell family and the High Sparrow in the most bombastic way ever? DO IT AGAIN!

At this point the show could have fix its trajectory. At this point the show writers could have showed us that they had the writing talent to end this....

July 16, 2017 - Season 7 of the TV show. At around this point book readers gave up and let tv only fans have it. While they still complained, our hearts weren't in it anymore. This is the shortest season episode wise and that's mostly to do with the compromises made to keep the actors from rioting on set. Dragons go woosh, dumb and dumber plans are made. Etc etc.

It becomes obvious to book readers that the best way to end this show form the show writers perspective is to tie up any loose ends. Everything needs to be centralized and trimmed down and any "tedious" portions should be cut out in favor of more banter, more action scenes that serve no purpose, and using as much plot armor as possible to get your characters out of increasingly idiotic situations. There was a million ways for this show to end on its own power, independent of martins inability to finish the story but ultimately...

April 14, 2019 - Season 8 of the TV show. The show takes a one year hiatus to basically do the same shit they did in season 7. Starting to think the 1 year hiatus had less to do with writing the story and more to do with the actors not murdering D&D in their sleep.  It was an old time road that got us here. Non-existent foresight, years of prior knowledge of Martins ineptness and laziness. Maybe at some point around season 4 they should have taken bolder more well thought out steps to better outline what they wanted to do with the story. Because at the end of the day they've committed themselves to a non stop production of a series that has been effectively dubbed their baby for 8 years. Not counting the amount of time dedicated to even securing a pilot episode for HBO to greenlight the entire series. You would think that they would take some ownership of the series, get writers who could end this at the same quality it started. Or...dear god if they wrote this themselves that would explain a lot.


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Reply #6396 on: May 15, 2019, 01:55:35 AM

I am not going to read all that nor try to dispute any specific points...but the gloom and doom is a bit off, don't you think?  Martin sleeps on piles of money and possibly pastries.  HBO has been at the helm of a cultural phenomenon the likes of which has never been seen before and may never be seen again.  It made literally no difference to anyone but an unknown percentage of butthurt viewers that he hasn't delivered the material.  As Haemish has said recently and I have also said elsewhere in the thread, GRRM has no real incentive to hurry anything or even finish this shit.  It changes nothing for anyone.

This last episode that everyone hates so much?  Biggest numbers of any episode in the series.  Probably only to be topped by the next one.

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Reply #6397 on: May 15, 2019, 02:05:05 AM

I am utterly so fucking glad I stopped reading at book 2 and never watched the show. This is almost like watching a cathedral burn.
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Reply #6398 on: May 15, 2019, 02:37:50 AM

I am not going to read all that nor try to dispute any specific points...but the gloom and doom is a bit off, don't you think?  Martin sleeps on piles of money and possibly pastries.  HBO has been at the helm of a cultural phenomenon the likes of which has never been seen before and may never be seen again.  It made literally no difference to anyone but an unknown percentage of butthurt viewers that he hasn't delivered the material.  As Haemish has said recently and I have also said elsewhere in the thread, GRRM has no real incentive to hurry anything or even finish this shit.  It changes nothing for anyone.

This last episode that everyone hates so much?  Biggest numbers of any episode in the series.  Probably only to be topped by the next one.

Unfortunately it's rarely ever the idiots or the lazy that suffer immediately for stupid decisions. GRRM, HBO and D&D can sit on a pile of money and laugh at their audience for giving a shit. It's always the creators that come after them that they do. It's always the next project that they sink a million dollars into on name recognition alone that bombs. I highly doubt D&D is going to ride off into the sunset and "do it again" on their next project or that anyone is going to care that the winds of winter is "just a few more pages away" after this ending.
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Reply #6399 on: May 15, 2019, 02:56:26 AM

I actually like how dialog light they've been this year. The writers are bad writing but the directors have been pretty good at showing.

There have been moments in this season where it looked like the actors wanted to say a line of dialogue but there just wasn't a line of dialogue written. That is an impression I've gotten multiple times with multiple characters.

Totally see that.

Just not convinced they should have got a line. They did a good job with a grumpy look.

S7 would have had the line. S7 would have had a page and a half of saying out loud things that are obvious.

I think Nutter and Sapochnik have done a good job with a vastly simplified story of how 6 people dealt with 2 problems.

It is way faster than S5 to 7, it could have used clearer suggestion that time has passed between scenes. But I'm not sure there was really need for more plot or more talking to deliver the plot. S7 would have had us watch Bran and Sansa lay out Jon's lineage in extreme detail. S7 would have even more scenes of Dany complaining. Every previous season would have had more tits.

Dany has enough reasons to go mad. Sure pacing could have been tweaked.


ALSO, seems to be a growing Internet thing of 'seasons 1-7 are good but this is bad'. Jesus H Christ anyone who thinks Carry On Up the Sunspear was better than this can most certainly do one.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2019, 03:04:36 AM by eldaec »

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Reply #6400 on: May 15, 2019, 03:13:01 AM


ALSO, seems to be a growing Internet thing of 'seasons 1-7 are good but this is bad'. Jesus H Christ anyone who thinks Carry On Up the Sunspear was better than this can most certainly do one.

April 6 2014 - Season 4 (the literal last good season). Its been 3 years and no words from Martin wtf guys
For book readers.

TV only folks I have no idea what level of bullshit they are willing to nod their head and agree to. Apparently a lot and if season 8 broke the camel's back... took you long enough.
Comstar
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Reply #6401 on: May 15, 2019, 03:26:19 AM

So these are tyhe guys who are making the next Star Wars Trilogy?

Whelp, sell your Disney stock, until they get canned and someone else gets picked.

Defending the Galaxy, from the Scum of the Universe, with nothing but a flashlight and a tshirt. We need tanks Boo, lots of tanks!
Cyrrex
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Reply #6402 on: May 15, 2019, 03:37:20 AM

If you are looking for deep, meaningful narrative in your next Star Wars movie, then sure.  If you are looking for a spectable about people lazer swords, pew pew and choking bitches with the force?  You could do worse.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Shannow
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Reply #6403 on: May 15, 2019, 04:01:41 AM

Not to sidetrack but how is it Gareth Edwards, who made the best Star Wars movie in 30 years, hasn't made a film since?

Someone liked something? Who the fuzzy fuck was this heretic? You don't come to this website and enjoy something. Fuck that. ~ The Walrus
eldaec
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Reply #6404 on: May 15, 2019, 04:24:58 AM

The general Internet belief is that Edwards' version of R1 was nothing like what you saw on screen. Better or worse? Nobody knows. But Disney obviously weren't super keen.

So Edwards' only success story is being claimed by others. Rightly or wrongly.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
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