Game of Thrones [SPOILERS]

[Khaldun]

I think getting way too invested in a difference between dragonfire and decapitation is the thick thing here, especially in this universe.

Who was the person most concerned with executing people in the right and proper way in this universe, so far? Ned Stark. How'd that turn out for him?

Who has executed or righteously murdered people in other ways besides decapitation in this universe, some of them crueller by far than dragonfire, and yet not been tagged as "going MAD, I tell you, MAD".

*Arya Stark
*Sansa Stark
*Tyrion Lannister
*Jon Snow

Who has executed people in non-decapitating ways where people have not particularly regarded it as righteous and yet where that person was not instantly dubbed MAD or UNBALANCED?

*Melisandre (vag-monster, burning)
*Cersei (everyone thinks she's evil; no one says she's CRAZY or MAD)
*Stannis (via Melisandre, but still)
*Khal Drogo (people actually seemed pretty approving of his execution of Dany's brother, actually)


What kinds of methods of execution were used in the historical source material that GoT is at least partially drawing upon, sometimes by rulers regarded as basically sane and/or righteous?

*drawing and quartering
*burning people at the stake
*slow starvation in prison or in a public cage
*hanging
*crushing
*boiling (water and oil)
*crucifixion
*covering in hot tar

Nobody said that the use of these methods instantly defined a sovereign or lord as mad; their exclusive preference for the worst, or the application of the worst methods to too many prisoners of the wrong rank or status, might have drawn accusations that the ruler was cruel or capricious. This is the kind of world Martin (and the show) are drawing upon. Danerys burning two aristocratic prisoners who refused to acknowledge her sovereign authority and who refused an offer to take the black is 100% normal in the context of sovereign power in Martin's universe.


EDIT:

Let me add this quote from S7Ep5 that Riggswolfe just doesn't seem able to process:

"You cannot send me to the Wall. You are not my queen."

Not to mention that the elder Tarly offers profoundly stupid (and false) explanations of why Cersei Lannister is legitimate and Danerys is not right to her fucking face. In any remotely medieval-inspired universe, that should lead to having your balls chewed to death by rabid squirrels even if the monarch you're insulting is Louis the Pious.

[MediumHigh]

You're either not paying attention or being intentionally thick. Executing them by beheading and burning them alive is much, much different. One is a quick, merciful death. The other is a cruel, painful death. It's not hard to see at all. There's a reason people get shot when they're executed and not burned with a flamethrower. The show consistently equates burning people alive with characters who are, at best, morally gray and at worst utterly insane. Even if Dany's intentions weren't cruel or malicious, there are lots of people who remember her father and if you think those actions don't make them go "wait, is she another Arys?" then you're lying to yourself.

She had lots of choices in that scene. She could have had them beheaded, she could have forced them to take the black, etc etc. Instead she burnt them alive. This was a warning sign to characters like Varys and to the viewers. I immediately went "oh shit, is she going to become the mad queen?" because I picked up on the not at all subtle subtext. As did many, many viewers I assure you.

This is so unbelievably dense that I can't figure out if you watched the same show.

[Riggswolfe]

I think getting way too invested in a difference between dragonfire and decapitation is the thick thing here, especially in this universe.

Who was the person most concerned with executing people in the right and proper way in this universe, so far? Ned Stark. How'd that turn out for him?

Who has executed or righteously murdered people in other ways besides decapitation in this universe, some of them crueller by far than dragonfire, and yet not been tagged as "going MAD, I tell you, MAD".

*Arya Stark
*Sansa Stark
*Tyrion Lannister
*Jon Snow

Who has executed people in non-decapitating ways where people have not particularly regarded it as righteous and yet where that person was not instantly dubbed MAD or UNBALANCED?

*Melisandre (vag-monster, burning)
*Cersei (everyone thinks she's evil; no one says she's CRAZY or MAD)
*Stannis (via Melisandre, but still)
*Khal Drogo (people actually seemed pretty approving of his execution of Dany's brother, actually)

Out of curiosity, are any of these characters from families with a history of insanity? Do any of them have fathers whose main claim to fame is being an insane person who killed people in the same way that character just did? Jon is a Targaryen but so far hasn't done anything to show he is unstable nor was Rhaegar known for a specific method of killing people as he fell to insanity. Your examples don't mean shit in this discussion.

[MediumHigh]

1st step in having a wrong opinion
Denial of evidence.

[Phildo]

Out of curiosity, are any of these characters from families with a history of insanity? Do any of them have fathers whose main claim to fame is being an insane person who killed people in the same way that character just did? Jon is a Targaryen but so far hasn't done anything to show he is unstable nor was Rhaegar known for a specific method of killing people as he fell to insanity. Your examples don't mean shit in this discussion.

You're reaching a lot  with your theory.  It's a mildly interesting take, but I don't think it holds up.  Doesn't seem like anyone else here does, either.  Her descent into madness, if it's not a hamfisted fake out for the sake of tension, is being thrust upon us abruptly this season and could have been handled much better.  That said, you'd be better off pointing at her grief and jealousy as others have, rather than her use of fire on traitors and rebels openly denying her right to rule to her face.

But how about Euron and those sick fantasy points, eh?  I should rename my team.

[Samwise]

If Euron ends up strangling Cersei, as I suspect he will, there'll be no catching you.

[Rendakor]

I agree with Riggswolfe on Dany's descent into madness and the importance of fire in that role, I'm just less willing to die on this particular hill.

[Setanta]

I agree with Riggswolfe on Dany's descent into madness and the importance of fire in that role, I'm just less willing to die on this particular hill.

I tend to agree as well, but more because Dany has always been a bad decision maker. She's actually one of the characters I dislike the most.

[Threash]

The show was clearly emphasizing the burning as a bad thing.

[Threash]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahoHDU0T44I

[MediumHigh]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahoHDU0T44I

When dumb and dumber lie on their resume and get rewarded with a multi-million dollar tv series.

[Khaldun]

*Tyrion* thinks it's a bad thing. The show:

a) is quite willing (intentionally or otherwise) to show Tyrion as a terrible advisor ever since he became Father Knows Best post murdering his own father.
b) shows the Tarly forces pissing in their pants and mostly bending the knee to Danerys, who is not wrong in thinking that her chances of getting the spontaneous love and affection of many Westerosi lords is pretty low, because most of them are traitorously self-interested fucks who obey the Iron Throne only when they're afraid of it. Think of how Robert Baratheon became king: through a rebellion in which he killed the leaders and armies of a number of other houses. Think of how the Targaryens became kings: through an invasion with dragons. Think of how some of the current Houses became major Houses: through murdering the fuck out of rival minor Houses. If you want the Iron Throne, you want a kingdom that is only kept together through force and somewhat-unwilling oaths of fealty. It is not in any sense a place where leaders engage in careful, polite, persuasive solicitation of the views of various lords and officials in order to win their leadership.
c) The show (and the books) has consistently suggested that trusting, conciliatory leaders are fucking chumps who will end up dead or tortured or both, at least in the current status quo. The Dunk and Egg stories suggest that maybe in other times, there's a place for a good soul or two to gain some respect and authority through that more solicitious and generous leadership. But mostly not even there. This is not a universe where Aragorn becomes king both because he is born to it and because he is right for it.

[Riggswolfe]

Out of curiosity, are any of these characters from families with a history of insanity? Do any of them have fathers whose main claim to fame is being an insane person who killed people in the same way that character just did? Jon is a Targaryen but so far hasn't done anything to show he is unstable nor was Rhaegar known for a specific method of killing people as he fell to insanity. Your examples don't mean shit in this discussion.

You're reaching a lot  with your theory.  It's a mildly interesting take, but I don't think it holds up.  Doesn't seem like anyone else here does, either.  Her descent into madness, if it's not a hamfisted fake out for the sake of tension, is being thrust upon us abruptly this season and could have been handled much better.  That said, you'd be better off pointing at her grief and jealousy as others have, rather than her use of fire on traitors and rebels openly denying her right to rule to her face.

But how about Euron and those sick fantasy points, eh?  I should rename my team.

Her grief and jealousy of Jon are the final catalyst. I don't think it's an accident she lost Jorah then Missandei one right after the other. Those two are, arguably, her conscience and voice of reason given human form. Missandei's final words being Dracarys likely doesn't bode well for anyone in King's Landing. It is fairly hamfisted due to the absurdly short seasons and how much they need to cover in those seasons. But the precedent has been set before, it's just gone from fairly subtle hints to in our face, again, I believe because of a lack of time to properly develop the story as it deserves.

All of the actors have said the finale is "divisive" and "bittersweet" and similar things so I suspect we'll either see Dany go mad as they've hinted strongly at or Varys will kill her because he believes she is going mad or will go mad. I mean, I guess it could be a double fake out. Varys tries to kill her, it's the last straw and she loses her shit and kills Cersei then kills Jon to prevent a challenge to her and the show ends with Dany on the throne and being the Mad Queen. I could almost see it in the books simply because Martin likes the stories to have history that repeats. Not that we'll ever know because he won't ever finish the books.

[Khaldun]

One last shot at this. What made the Mad King mad, from the perspective of his peers?

He'd had a rough life, for a king. Stillborn children, his sons dead, he was held captive in terrible circumstances for months, he was without the defining characteristic of his dynasty (dragons).

But it's what he did as a result. After all of that, he was massively paranoid. Everything was a plot against him; he had people killed for blinking wrong. He decided that sharp instruments were all dangerous, and refused all personal hygiene that involved scissors or cutting instruments of any kind. We're talking decades here of being freaky and arbitrary and cruel, not a couple of judgment calls. Even as a young ruler he was sort of a crazy person at times. This is a guy who decided after his captivity to kill every member of the two families involved after having them tortured extensively. Every.single.member. Babies, old people, fifth cousins, you name it.

(Notably, he HIRED Varys because he was so paranoid, which raises some interesting questions...)

Martin's backstory is very careful to say that Aerys went nuts first because of the circumstances of his life but also that he was unlike his children and family--that he was a paranoid freakshow by the end. The show has done *nothing* to develop even a hint of this kind of temperament in Danerys. I can see that they may want to sell us on it, but they haven't committed to it one iota.

[Riggswolfe]

You're talking about book Arys. And the Arys from background source material GRRM has brought up. None of this is really brought up in the show. In one of Bran's visions he has long fingernails and a long beard and hair but I don't remember the show going into this much detail. The show simplified him down to "he was insane and burned people to death for no particular reason."

If Dany took the actions she did in the books, it wouldn't be enough to be considered foreshadowing but I think in the show it is because the show has stripped a lot of this kind of background stuff out for various reasons.

I did some looking because I can't remember how much he comes up in the show and found this wiki entry:

https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/Aerys_II_Targaryen

It does have a few notable entries about Dany:

Season 5

In Meereen, Ser Barristan Selmy grows increasingly concerned about the actions taken by Aerys's daughter Daenerys, who had earlier brutally executed 163 slavers after conquering Meereen. He discusses his experience while serving as a Kingsguard to her father. Despite Barristan's deep loyalty to the Targaryen dynasty, he reveals to Daenerys that her enemies did not lie when they called her father the "Mad King". Barristan recalls how Aerys set towns and castles aflame, murdered sons in front of their fathers, and burned men alive with wildfire, laughing all the while. These brutal actions lead to a revolt that toppled the Targaryen dynasty. Daenerys insists she is not like her father, which Barristan agreed. Still, he states that like Daenerys, her father had ordered these brutalities because he too felt he was dispensing "justice" and it made him feel powerful and right, until the very end.

Season 7
Varys notes to Daenerys that her father was cruel and mad, and that Robert Baratheon was a vast improvement. Later, Olenna Tyrell explains how her father wasn't peaceful in the least, but Daenerys should be still be ruthless if she is to conquer the Seven Kingdoms.

[snip]

After the execution of Randyll and Dickon Tarly following the battle of the Goldroad, Varys compares Daenerys to Aerys, as he did the same with Rickard and Brandon Stark. Varys then implores Tyrion to make her listen, fearing that this will make her be viewed in a similar fashion to her father.

I do think there were subtle hints that TV Dany had the potential to become TV Arys. That subtlety has been discarded in Season 8. Whether it is a fake out or a twist that they're foreshadowing heavily we'll probably know on Sunday as I doubt the final episode will be "Mad Queen Dany" but hell, maybe Dany is the final boss of the final episode. Who the hell knows at this point.

[MediumHigh]

Actually in the show they make many references to why Aerys was the mad king. What he did to people, why he did it, and why no one was sad to see him go.

Anyway if your unwilling to acknowledge that the show is forcing a bullshit unearned narrative about Dany than thats on your taste in fiction. Having consumed both the books and the tv show and there is a mountain of evidence that the tv show hasn't made any real attempts to earn the mad king narrative and just using it because it was a part of the books commentary about Dany. A commentary that only exist because that was Dany's inner thoughts about herself.

[eldaec]

Aerys.

The interesting part is the effort made to tell us how he only went mad after Duskendale. Making clear that he wasn't at all mad until he was.

Seems entirely reasonable plotting that Dany's ultimate tragedy is that trying to take KL sends her bonkers.

She very obviously cannot win the throne, so needs some kind of tragedy. I assumed she was set up for the big damn sacrifice. But tbh this would fit.

[Jeff Kelly]

The whole point after 5 books and 8 TV seasons worth of scheming, slaughter and madness should have been that no one can win the throne, not even the Ikea rug wearing Jesus stand-in who abandons his dog for some pouty blonde pyromaniac.

[Khaldun]

Just in case you need further convincing, the scene with Euron shooting the dragon is in fact really really fucking dumb.

https://www.tor.com/2019/05/08/doing-the-math-on-game-of-thrones-season-8-episode-4/

[Jeff Kelly]

Of course it's dumb. A ballista is a siege weapon or used for ship to ship combat. The biggest models allegedly had the range to "cross the Danube" and estimates put the effective range of the largest ballista ever made at 500 yards. The firing arc is between 15 and 45 degrees and the big models had to be wound by several men under the help of "machines" and pulleys. The Romans usually didn't even bother shooting bolts and instead used them to shoot large rocks or greek fire. It would be almost impossible to hit a highly mobile flying target at range with such a weapon and the 45 degree arc means they'd be unsuitable as "anti-air" weponry. The ballistic arc of most ballistas was a meager 15 degrees or about the same as that of a cannon.

You also couldn't freely aim them because they were either fixed installations (e.g. on defense towers) or mounted onto wagons pulled by horses.

They were used to tear down fortified walls during sieges (shooting rocks) or to clear the walls from enemies. As battlefield wepons they were used against armor (horses, enemy soldiers) or enemy engines and wagons. Those things might work if you can aim them at an enemy army because it will likely hit someone out of the hundreds of people charging you and dedicated gunners were even able to take out indicidual slow moving targets.

The Javelin throw by the Night King - right out of a Leni Riefenstahl movie - made more sense than that.

[Jeff Kelly]

As the article puts it.

He would have needed to hit a fast moving dragon at twice the effective range of the biggest ballista ever built (which probably not coincidentally was also called Scorpion). While using iron sights and not reckoning. A ballista that is magically unaffected by gravity or wind (there's a reason why we call "ballistic" weapons that) can be freely aimed even though it is fixed to a ship which is magically unaffected by the motion of the sea. It also fires the bolt with so much force that the kinetic energy after covering 1000 yards is still enough to penetrate dragon skin and which reloads so quickly that you can rapid fire it.

[Khaldun]

I'm 100% sure that if in Martin's notes it says, "A Greyjoy kills a dragon", it's with the horn that Victarion got from Euron, not a fucking crossbow.

[Riggswolfe]

Actually in the show they make many references to why Aerys was the mad king. What he did to people, why he did it, and why no one was sad to see him go.

Anyway if your unwilling to acknowledge that the show is forcing a bullshit unearned narrative about Dany than thats on your taste in fiction. Having consumed both the books and the tv show and there is a mountain of evidence that the tv show hasn't made any real attempts to earn the mad king narrative and just using it because it was a part of the books commentary about Dany. A commentary that only exist because that was Dany's inner thoughts about herself.

Unless Martin finishes the books we'll never know his plans for her. But it is possible his notes say something like "Dany tragically goes mad after going to Westeros and losing everything important to her and realizing she is a stranger in her own homeland." I think where I see subtle hints in prior seasons you see only the super obvious stuff from this season. At the end of the day it doesn't matter, we'll know their plans for sure over the next two weeks.

re: Scorpions

I try not to think much about the specifics on this kind of thing. I sort of chalk it up to "shit never works real in movies and tv. People don't slow walk while something explodes behind them. They get tossed through the air and their insides are turned into paste but screw it, it looks cool."

If I was forced to make an excuse besides "it's a tv show" I'd probably go with "Qyburn clearly has some kind of alchemical magic since he brought the Mountain back as a zombie. I guess the Scorpions are some kind of magic he made too?"

[calapine]

Lena Headley's take on the Cersei-Euron sex scene:

The viewer assumes Cersei feels like she cannot afford to risk losing Euron as ally if she goes to war with Daenerys.

“I kept saying, ‘She wouldn’t, she wouldn’t, that she would keep fighting,’” Headey tells EW. “But [showrunners David Benioff and Dan Weiss] obviously know what they’re doing and were adamant Cersei would do what she had to do.”

The last sentence sounds like spoken in Greentext.  

Also Pilou Asbeack aka Euron said in an answer to a fan question:

[Riggswolfe]

It sounds like Euron's actor is throwing some shade at the writers. "Yeah, they made me one-dimensional but what can I do except play what I'm given?"

[calapine]

That's how exactly I read it, yes. Same as Headley's more subtle "I was against it but the showrunners obviously know what they are doing..."

[Riggswolfe]

That's how exactly I read it, yes. Same as Headley's more subtle "I was against it but the showrunners obviously know what they are doing..."

I disagree with Headley actually. Cersei has shown she knows how to wield sex as a way to manipulate people and that's how I viewed her tryst with Euron. She always looks a bit annoyed by his presence but like she is trying her best to pretend otherwise and I found her actions to fit pretty well with how she has acted in the past.

[Threash]

That's how exactly I read it, yes. Same as Headley's more subtle "I was against it but the showrunners obviously know what they are doing..."

I disagree with Headley actually. Cersei has shown she knows how to wield sex as a way to manipulate people and that's how I viewed her tryst with Euron. She always looks a bit annoyed by his presence but like she is trying her best to pretend otherwise and I found her actions to fit pretty well with how she has acted in the past.

Seriously, has she not read the books? Cersei was fucking everyone who could even superficially benefit her, or not.

[Speedy Cerviche]

That's how exactly I read it, yes. Same as Headley's more subtle "I was against it but the showrunners obviously know what they are doing..."

I disagree with Headley actually. Cersei has shown she knows how to wield sex as a way to manipulate people and that's how I viewed her tryst with Euron. She always looks a bit annoyed by his presence but like she is trying her best to pretend otherwise and I found her actions to fit pretty well with how she has acted in the past.

Seriously, has she not read the books? Cersei was fucking everyone who could even superficially benefit her, or not.

I doubt most of them have read the books.

[IainC]

That's how exactly I read it, yes. Same as Headley's more subtle "I was against it but the showrunners obviously know what they are doing..."

I disagree with Headley actually. Cersei has shown she knows how to wield sex as a way to manipulate people and that's how I viewed her tryst with Euron. She always looks a bit annoyed by his presence but like she is trying her best to pretend otherwise and I found her actions to fit pretty well with how she has acted in the past.

I'm not disagreeing with that in principle. Book Cersei absolutely offered herself around when she thought that would be the way to get someone particularly important on side. I don't remember the character's name but I recall that she fucked one of Margaery's retinue specifically to get him to snitch on her.

The issue with the Euron/Cersei scene specifically was that she just told him "If you want a whore, buy one; if you want a queen, earn one." Then she turns around literally seconds later and goes, "Actually, you know what, none of that applies to you."

[Comstar]

So that link above says the Scorpion Bolt has a range better than a Nazi V1 rocket that could bombard London.

That's it, everyone surrender, there's no way they can withstand firepower of that magnitude. Dragon's or no no dragon's, those bolts can bombard The Wall. No wounder they wern't concerned with the White Walkers.

[calapine]

Seriously, has she not read the books? Cersei was fucking everyone who could even superficially benefit her, or not.

No one cares about your stupid books. :p

[SurfD]

If Euron ends up strangling Cersei, as I suspect he will, there'll be no catching you.

Almost guarantee that at some point, Jamie will make it into Cercei's presence (while Euron is also there) and manage to drop the fact that the child is His into open conversation, which will immediately result in Euron gutting Cercei like a fish.

[Khaldun]

I think there is no child.

[Brolan]

One of the things that HAS to happen is Cersei’s prophecy.  Jamie or Tyrion has to strangle her at some point.