Game of Thrones [SPOILERS]

[eldaec]

Ned was as much hubris as anyone else. He considered the game and Cersei beneath him, and didn't even think of Joffery as a player.

[Pagz]

Sociopaths succeed in cultures with loose rules and grey areas over those who attempt to live in a civil and structured society?

My god, let's hope they never figure that out!

 

He's obviously never played Crusader Kings 2.

[Tannhauser]

He was even warned by Renly.  When Ned refused, Renly bravely ran away.

[HaemishM]

I mean, it all seems quite reasonable if you look at it from the angle of "this is what a HERO does, he shows mercy to his enemies," which is the angle that Ned was looking at it from. 

It wasn't the "HERO" angle, it was the "HONOR" angle. As in, this is what an honorable person does, someone who has the capacity for shame and is not utterly ruthless in getting what they want despite the immorality of their actions. He just didn't realize he was dealing with someone with no fucking scruples whatsoever. Which was fuckstupid, but hey, that's what he was about. It's very often in Martin stories that those who try to apply rules and the trappings of civilization get fucked when they go up against those who for whom those rules hold no power.

Oberyn thought his cause was just and so he tried to extract a confession out of the Mountain - a confession that he hoped would implicate Tywin. Oberyn figured the Mountain was already dead anyway thanks to the poison and was also defeated thanks to being flat on his back with a spear hole in his gut. He underestimated his opponent's savageness and toughness.

Most of Game of Thrones is about the true face of power - about how civilization only holds power over those who believe in the illusion of its rules. Dragons, ice zombies - both of these things will be unfettered by any sort of reverence to the Iron Throne, or the laws of the Kingdoms of Westeros or any sort of religious morality, or territorial borders established by laws or treaties. Varys's speech to Tyrion about true power is very instructive for the whole series.

[eldaec]

I've always thought blaming honor gives Ned too much credit. He didn't threaten Cersei primarily to save her or her kids (he had already executed a man for less), it came across as him trying to save Robert embarrassment and because he believed Cersei was not strong enough to cross him.

[HaemishM]

He didn't threaten Cersei primarily to save her or her kids (he had already executed a man for less)

Who did Ned execute for less? The Nightwatch deserter? Because to him, that's kind of the same thing - dishonorable conduct. And I'm pretty sure he wasn't worried about Robert's embarrassment as much as having an incest-created bastard on the throne who had no legal right to rule. It's the same reason he didn't back Renly's play for the throne - he didn't believe Renly had a valid claim to the throne with Stannis still alive, thus it was dishonorable to try to put Renly on the throne.

[Threash]

I've always thought blaming honor gives Ned too much credit. He didn't threaten Cersei primarily to save her or her kids (he had already executed a man for less), it came across as him trying to save Robert embarrassment and because he believed Cersei was not strong enough to cross him.

Deserting the nightswatch is not "less", specially not to Ned Stark.

[Samwise]

he believed Cersei was not strong enough to cross him.

That's the key IMO.  The "heroes" in this series have a habit of underestimating (or failing to acknowledge) their enemies and getting killed by them.

Same is true of the bad guys.  Joffrey was in "all this security is silly because everyone loves/fears me" la-la land right up until his airway closed.

[eldaec]

I've always thought blaming honor gives Ned too much credit. He didn't threaten Cersei primarily to save her or her kids (he had already executed a man for less), it came across as him trying to save Robert embarrassment and because he believed Cersei was not strong enough to cross him.

Deserting the nightswatch is not "less", specially not to Ned Stark.

It's less than treason.

[Tebonas]

I always got the feeling you could get away with murder before you get away with Oathbreaking in this world. They really take that seriously.

[Threash]

I always got the feeling you could get away with murder before you get away with Oathbreaking in this world. They really take that seriously.

Yeah, pretty much this.  Not just oathbreaking, but oathbreaking on what was supposed to be your final chance.  Most of those guys end up at the wall to avoid execution in the first place.

[Severian]

The discussion for the last page or two here is what GRRM intends to happen, from experiencing the story. It's no accident, and he's not capricious. Unlike a lot of genre fiction he's not supplying pat answers about why his characters meet the fates they do, and the fates are varied and often extreme.
"Why do bad things happen to good people?"
Will evil always triumph because good is dumb?

Why did that happen to Ned Stark? To Robb Stark? To Oberyn Martell?

Exactly.

[schild]

GRRM doesn't intend shit. He doesn't know how to complete a story or fully flesh out a character. If he had to write a book about a single character, it would be absolutely awful. And 15,700 pages. The character would meet an untimely death around page 2,000 and the rest of the book would be people looking around for the right casket for the funeral.

[MahrinSkel]

But it would be a really lovely coffin.

--Dave

[Severian]

Martin has written a number of other novels, but I haven't read them (although I vividly remember the short story Sandkings  which I read as a kid) and I don't know whether they are about a single character or not. Or how good  they are. He is certainly capable of creating an interesting character, though, Tyrion could obviously anchor a book on his own. But regardless, that's not what this is. Sure, Martin doesn't do everything well. That's not the same as having nothing of interest on offer.

Now Jordan, he sucks. I had a long run at his work and had to give up on his weak shit, it wasn't worth it. That is not what is happening here.

[schild]

I don't know, I know plenty of people who quit before A Dance with Dragons because 50 good pages doesn't make 1054 shitty pages worth reading. Which is basically exactly what you just described.

[Ingmar]

But that doesn't change the fact Martin wrote him into doing something fuck stupid so he could kill him, much like the rest of his good characters. 

Author writes book, news at 11? You make it sound like Oberyn wasn't Martin's character in the first place.

[Zetor]

I liked some of GRRM's work in other genres (Tuf Voyaging: comical and sorta-preachy space opera, Fevre Dream: vampire novel) well enough and think they're at least above average, but didn't think they were the best things evar, either.

[Setanta]

Fevre Dream was my first introduction to his writing.

TBH, I think it shits all over his writing in GoT

[Rendakor]

Ned lost and got put in a bad position for underestimating Cersei, but he died for underestimating Joffrey. Cersei was going to let him take the black, which would have essentially made the Wall get their shit together.

[Threash]

PSA: tonight's episode is 66 minutes long.

Predictions: most people are going to miss the ending.

[Merusk]

Yes they did.  The rage will be amusing

On the same note.  Aww they didn't do it. Liked the changes that eliminated whole swaths of useless storylines and chapters of characters next season.

[Evil Elvis]

Yeah, I'm let down they didn't do it.  I could have also done without the show going all Sinbad.

[Chimpy]

I never thought the scene you guys were expecting would be in this season. I always felt the final episode was going to end almost where it did. If they had ended it at right around 60 minutes it would have pretty much ended where I thought it would. I really think they should have edited the scenes together differently and put the scene before the credits earlier and ended it with the image of a certain someone sitting on the throne.

[Threash]

Happy Fathers Day from GoT.

[Tannhauser]

Was that so fucking hard GoT?  Finally a perfect episode from start to finish.  

[Rasix]

Yah, a certain scene would have been pretty awesome if it were to end the season, but what we got was well done (even given the spoilered nonsense).

[Setanta]

Yah, a certain scene would have been pretty awesome if it were to end the season, but what we got was well done (even given the spoilered nonsense).

They could have dumped the Bran story - it shits me on the screen as much as it did when I read it.

I would have love the final 10 seconds of the credits to drop the scene many were hoping for. Instead we got the other ending which was ok. Dinklage steals it again.

[eldaec]

The Gregor thing isn't a change from the book.

I haven't seen this yet, but disappointed to hear they changed how Jamie and Tyrion finish up.

[K9]

I haven't seen this yet, but disappointed to hear they changed how Jamie and Tyrion finish up.

I liked the series and this episode overall. Spoilery thoughts:

[eldaec]

They have done Tysha's story in the show, admittedly not for a while.

[Merusk]

I haven't seen this yet, but disappointed to hear they changed how Jamie and Tyrion finish up.

I liked the series and this episode overall. Spoilery thoughts:

The biggest err, what moment for me was, however, Varys. Him taking off on the boat with Tyrion was totally unexpected.

[Threash]

[eldaec]

I would guess they aren't bringing Roger Allam back (which is a shame) and will use Varys in the role.

[Speedy Cerviche]