Game of Thrones [SPOILERS]

[Rendakor]

The problem is the same problem with fake Aegon; we're a bit late in the game for huge, surprising reveals. If Varys has some shady hidden agenda we ought to at least have some hint of it by now.

[Khaldun]

I certainly wouldn't trust that Varys in books OR series is what he appears to be.

[Hayduke]

Maybe he's not, but it seems like all of the malevolent actors seem to be motivated by either a desire to accrue dynastic power or by revenge. He's a eunuch so the first is off the table, and who would he be getting revenge against?

[Merusk]

Littlefinger and Varys are two sides of the same coin.

One is all about personal power at any cost. The other is about best-serving the realm at any cost.

When Aerys was mad, serving the realm meant bringing him down. Robert was the best candidate after the rebellion and served well until he became a drunk, neglectful, and sloppy ruler. So then he had to fall.  All the high-houses in Westeros are unsuited to rule so Dany it is. For now.

[Samwise]

Maybe he's not, but it seems like all of the malevolent actors seem to be motivated by either a desire to accrue dynastic power or by revenge. He's a eunuch so the first is off the table, and who would he be getting revenge against?

He already had that sorcerer in a box, so he's free to pursue more philanthrophic hobbies now.   

[MahrinSkel]

We had some foreshadowing on that, it's about whatever the voice that was summoned with his junk had to say. Presumably he wants to stop whatever it wanted.

--Dave

[eldaec]

My feeling is the talking junk probably foretold the coming of magic and I do believe him when he says he disapproves of magic. But alternatively it isn't inconceivable whatever was said was Blackfyre related.

If Varys is as he appears I don't understand his failure to support Rhaegar, I don't understand him helping Robert's rebellion while developing fake Aegon at the same time, and I don't understand half of what was said under the red keep in GoT Arya III.

I could buy 'he just wants power', but that would make him another Littlefinger.

[Khaldun]

He might want a ruler who is tractable to his advice, at least in the books. That's "power" but different than what Littlefinger wants (which is to be king himself).

Aerys wasn't, so out he goes.
Robert wasn't, so out he goes.
Joffrey wasn't, so out he goes.
Kevan as regent for Tommen wasn't, so out he goes. In fact, out with all Lannisters--they'll never listen to him, really.
Aegon might be, especially if he's just made up. But maybe Danerys would be too, since she wouldn't know Westeros well.

[Teleku]

I recall in the books somebody saying that the Mad King only really started to go crazy after Varys joined the court.  Granted, this is just one line by somebody who didn’t like Varys, and I can’t really think of any other evidence or hints that exists, but it was at least hinting that Varys was the cause of all this.

Considering all his actions have seemingly been pro-Targ since, it doesn’t really make sense for him to cause the madness and downfall of the dynasty, then try to restore it (especially when the Mad Kings son by all accounts would have been a good ruler).

Or maybe he’s a closet agent of the Red God.  When that Wizard cut off his junk and summoned the voice in the Blood Magic ritual, maybe more happened than he’s been letting on.  He got converted/possessed/whatever, and has been doing the bidding of the Red God ever since.  Or maybe even the Nights King.  Either way, causing endless blood shed for years by bringing about one Usurper after another, and witling down competent people here and there.

Highly doubt it, but that would be a more ASOIA type explanation.  As it is, even in the books, he seems to be the only actual good guy.

[Khaldun]

Maybe he's actually a closet revolutionary. Meaning, when Dany says something like she's going to break the wheel, that's what makes her appealing to Varys--that he wants to completely smash the whole order of things in Westeros (and maybe Essos while he's at it). Maybe that's what the voice said to him: that if he timed it right, when this fateful winter approached, he could pull it off. Maybe that's the point of his observation about power as a shadow, a thing that works only when people believe in it--he's making sure that no one will believe in it. Which would explain his antipathy to Littlefinger--the only other person who welcomes the fall of the old order, but in this case because it's a chance for Littlefinger himself to ascend to the top, when in the old system he couldn't be more than a minor noble with influence from his money.

Might be that he's even in communication with Qyburn and told him to go ahead and blow up the Sept. I can't believe that his "little birds" would simply flock to another spymaster that easily.

After all, the problem with most revolutions is that they only partially destroy the system that they rise against, and usually find themselves recreating some part of it or dependent upon some of their past rulers. No revolution has ever really completely wiped out all traces of the old system, because that's a basically contradictory as well as apocalyptic prospect (how do you retain enough control to completely eradicate existing systems while not yet having fully created the new systems you propose to have?) But this time, well: it's actually an apocalypse, most people have died or are going to die, the nobility will not have a trace of loyalty or credibility left, women will be in charge, etc.

[eldaec]

Whether Varys caused the madness or caused the events that drove him mad is hard to say, but Jamie and Selmy's view that Varys was making the king paranoid re:Rhaegar is the most compelling evidence that he was certainly not an agent of stablility. It is also strongly implied in Arya III that he killed a hand before Jon Arryn was killed by Lysa.

For the Aegon plot to make sense Varys must have been planning it since the rebellion. Faegon is a couple of years younger, and he was raised from birth as Aegon. Which means it could have been an opportunist response to Aegon's death, but Vaeys and Illyrio certainly needed set that plan in motion immeadiately after the child's death; it cannot have been a response to Baratheon or Lannister misrule.

Varys and Illyrio have almost certainly been working to destroy and rebuild the Targaryean dynasty for the last 20 years. That means they started at a time when Aerys was still an effective, non-mad king.

Why spend 20 years replacing one effective Targaryean with another? Even if it is a fake Targ.

[Khaldun]

Also, it may be that Varys in the show has been softened somewhat simply because they sent him along with Tyrion to Essos instead of plonking Tyrion on a boat full of new characters, and that in turn strengthened the existing buddy dynamic between the two characters, which in turn made them decide to send Varys to Meereen, somewhere that he is assuredly not going to be going to in the books.

[Phildo]

You guys are way off about Varys.  Incoming book-based fan theory:

[MediumHigh]

I thought his goals were pretty clear. He wants a ruler for Westeros that isn't a mad, murdering shitgoblin, one whose concern is as much about the safety of the people AND the continuation of the kingdom minus some of its less savory aspects. Peace in our time and all that.

He's one of the few who has always been working less for personal power in contrast to someone like Littlefinger who doesn't give a fuck about the realm, he just wants personal power.

Varys loyalty to the Targs is pretty clear. While he might spout noble reasons like "the realm" or "for the people", he fell in love with his position under the Mad King. He was plucked from being a talented, wealthy, but ultimately petty peddler of secrets to one of the most powerful men in all of westeroes, the only master of whispers in over 100 years that truly filled the shoes of the great Blood Raven. Also hated serving Robert and was plotting his downfall since the moment he ascended the throne, he just was stupid enough to make a public point of it.

Crazy book theory is crazy but hilarious if that happens.

[HaemishM]

I've read all the books and I do not remember shit about "merlings." ... the fuck is that?

[Teleku]

Heh.  I hadn't heard that one before.  Is sort of intriguing when you take a few of the quotes that don't make a lot of sense otherwise (the "You might be disappointed at the results" line).

Not totally sold, but considering my own thoughts that there is a lot of evidence that he's serving one of the crazy gods (Red God, Cold God, Dagon), I'm game.

[MahrinSkel]

It does make a sort of sense, when you consider that a lot of ASOIF may be just shadows thrown on the wall of a contest between the gods and godlike powers, and we're watching the mice scrambling around the elephant herd. The human scale story is only the story of inconsequential beings too small to even see what is really happening. To the gods, the Doom of Valyria *just* happened (a mere 4 centuries ago). The Drowned God, the Lord of Light, and the Many-Faced God are all implicated in that.

--Dave

[HaemishM]

If they go that route with Varys and the story in particular, won't that be like the worst kind of Deus Ex Machina end? A literal god-level fuck you to the fans?

[jgsugden]

If they go that route with Varys and the story in particular, won't that be like the worst kind of Deus Ex Machina end? A literal god-level fuck you to the fans?

Depends upon execution.  In a sense, all of King's Landing is irrelevant to the major war we expect to end the series.  Do we regret following those stories?

[HaemishM]

At least those were stories about characters we've actually been introduced to instead of elemental forces of nature. Having it be solved by one or all of the "Old Gods" is basically equivalent to "and the hurricane killed everyone. THE END."

[jgsugden]

At least those were stories about characters we've actually been introduced to instead of elemental forces of nature. Having it be solved by one or all of the "Old Gods" is basically equivalent to "and the hurricane killed everyone. THE END."

Or, it could be people realizing they are the pawns of the Gods and rebelling... or another of other options.  The equivalent of your hurricane would suck.  There are other options and I still have faith we're going somewhere.

[MahrinSkel]

I've got a theory about Chekov's Sword (the one Sam stole from the wall): Based on nothing but the fact that they make a point of his taking it (putting in a homecoming that wasn't in the books for apparently no other purpose) it follows that it must be something important, and there's only two unaccounted for swords of great significance: Blackfyre (the ancestral sword of House Targaryen, Ser Barristan probably knows where that is since he killed the last known owner), and Lightbringer (Ahor Azai's sword). So my theory would be that "Heartsbane" is actually the long-lost Lightbringer.

--Dave

[MediumHigh]

Obviously Jon Snow is going to dual wield heartsbane and long claw. Bonus points if melissandra comes back just to set heartsbane on fire with her blood. Or oh shit. Sam is going to go all Neville Longbottom on us and kill his wife and child to turn heartsbane into lightbringer. Oh god. 

[Merusk]

I've got a theory about Chekov's Sword (the one Sam stole from the wall): Based on nothing but the fact that they make a point of his taking it (putting in a homecoming that wasn't in the books for apparently no other purpose) it follows that it must be something important, and there's only two unaccounted for swords of great significance: Blackfyre (the ancestral sword of House Targaryen, Ser Barristan probably knows where that is since he killed the last known owner), and Lightbringer (Ahor Azai's sword). So my theory would be that "Heartsbane" is actually the long-lost Lightbringer.

--Dave

What? No, Barristan never killed a Targaryen. Blackfyre was last in the hands of Bittersteel after the Blackfyre rebellion. When he left Westeros to form the Golden Company it's assumed he took the sword with him. That was a centruy before the series, so chances are one of Dany's people has it in some fashion if it's going to pop-up anywhere. Daario's daggers, maybe?
http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Blackfyre

[MahrinSkel]

Ambiguous, the last Blackfyre (the House, not the sword) was Maegar the Monstrous, killed by Barristan (in Essos). The sword went to Essos, but exactly what happened after that is never said. Anyway, Heartsbane can't be Blackfyre, since it has been in the Tarly family for 500 years (while Lightbringer is 8000 years old and been missing for nearly all of that).

--Dave

[Rendakor]

Heartsbane as a name works for a sword forged by being plunged into the heart of a woman.

[eldaec]

There are a *lot* of swords that could be lightbringer at a stretch.

LB must be drawn from fire by the new AA (longclaw was in GoT, Oathkeeper easily could be given its location), needs to be reforged in water (Oathkeeper, WW were reforged from Ice), in a lion (Jamie, Quorin?) and in a loved one (Jamie, Ygritte?). Ice inexplicably turning red after being reforged is also kind of weird.

My guess had always been that the lightbringer story was really background about the discovery of Valyrian steel. Heartsbane might just be a way to help Sam figure out that valyrian steel kills walkers. Book Sam found hints of that in the Castle Black library, TV Jon discovered it at Hardhome, I don't think anyone else knows.

[Merusk]

So the actors have the scripts for S7 in hand now. So far Maisie Williamsy has said: "things start to get REAL," and "nothing can prepare us." Kit Harrington has said the season looks, "bleak."

So, after all the shit we've seen, from the Red Wedding to Cersi blowing-up the Sept it can get worse? Sign me up.

[Shannow]

It's believed that the Season 7 start date has been pushed back so they could get more filming done in wintery conditions.

Make of that what you wish.

[Teleku]

Fantasy Season 7 should be fun.   

[Pagz]

I have to actually remember this thread so I can sign up for that before the season starts >.<

[schild]

Out of curiosity, does canon even matter anymore? Isnt the show the new book and GRRM the new awful fat guy that will never finish his work or spend his ill gotten gains he fell backwards into?

[jgsugden]

Out of curiosity, does canon even matter anymore? Isnt the show the new book and GRRM the new awful fat guy that will never finish his work or spend his ill gotten gains he fell backwards into?

Even though the show seemingly spoiled parts of the book, I still look forward to reading the last two books in 2028.

[Merusk]

I've said it before and remain convinced of it after WOW was delayed again. He's NEVER going to finish the book. Someone else started telling the story and he's even more disinterested in it than he was before. He's done.

Hell, the guy doesn't even update his site anymore. His wife does. I'm not convinced he's going to live to see the end of the HBO series, nevermind write the books.

The only good news is that he got married so his wife will likely hire a ghost writer to keep the checks coming in. /cynic.

[Khaldun]

I honestly think he's probably designated a replacement writer to finish if he croaks off. Probably Sanderson. But I suspect GRRM doesn't even have plot outlines with any detail now, and that's not just because of disinterest. I think it's because he knows full well he wrote himself into a corner in most of his plot developments, not just with Danerys (that's one plot trap he's openly acknowledged). Most of where the plot *has* to go now violates the anti-fantasy tropes spirit of the early part of the series. The show finally cut the Gordian knot on a couple of these: Arya comes back from Braavos with assassin powers and no real consequences; Jon comes back to life with no real consequences; Danerys leaves Meereen after having repeated the same plot sequence three times more or less. I think we can predict Sam will find the McGuffin of mighty whatever, probably Lord Friendzone will bring it back from wherever he's gone off to. Etc. I think that's why Martin has stopped, more than anything else: he knows the only way out is to deliver much more typical fantasy narratives. He can't just keep introducing new viewpoint characters and having a surprise kill or two every book. It's got to come together and if characters die, it's got to be in the more typical "battle-against-the-evil-forces-of-darkness" sort of death, or maybe in various plotting and maneuvering as the forces against the ice zombies come together.  Now that Martin is seeing the showrunners do it, I suspect he wants even *less* to have to do all that himself or to write contrarian dissents against it.