Game of Thrones [SPOILERS]

[Ruvaldt]

This was the best episode of the entire series.  From the opening shot I was spellbound.  If there is any justice they'll give Sapochnik every episode that follows.

[schild]

Was a great episode. Also what's this fantasy league shit. I want in.

[Abagadro]

I think Cersei got jobbed on the points (and Tommen too, should have got SOMETHING for his dive), but I'm happy she brought me up from the depths to finish a respectable third and have the #1 player for the season (my other 3 did fuckall).  That was pretty fun, we should do it again next season.

[Setanta]

Lady Mormont was great. Does the story have enough time left in it for her to grow uopto be more awesome I wonder? Probably not, hey ho.

Snow-Mormont wedding? Jon Snow may know nothing but Lady Mormont could rule the North for him without his Starkability of fucking things up.

[Cyrrex]

Lady Mormont was great. Does the story have enough time left in it for her to grow uopto be more awesome I wonder? Probably not, hey ho.

Snow-Mormont wedding? Jon Snow may know nothing but Lady Mormont could rule the North for him without his Starkability of fucking things up.

 

[Setanta]

Lady Mormont was great. Does the story have enough time left in it for her to grow uopto be more awesome I wonder? Probably not, hey ho.

Snow-Mormont wedding? Jon Snow may know nothing but Lady Mormont could rule the North for him without his Starkability of fucking things up.

 

Dany in the books, political alliances etc etc

This had me laughing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCLLShlmmSM

[Ozzu]

Greatness.

Here's another one (not sure if it's been posted):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OU7ztXgS95s

[Merusk]

Lady Mormont was great. Does the story have enough time left in it for her to grow uopto be more awesome I wonder? Probably not, hey ho.

Snow-Mormont wedding? Jon Snow may know nothing but Lady Mormont could rule the North for him without his Starkability of fucking things up.

 

Dany in the books, political alliances etc etc

This had me laughing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCLLShlmmSM

That one's stolen, here's the original:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvFF2GEKAwg

[calapine]

Saw it, loved it. great, great episode. Magnifikat. Beautiful.

Can only go downhill from here

/Trump


I was actually in the process of writing a longer, serious post arguing that a) Cersei is if not a good at least a human character and very relatable. As opposed to mary sues or boring cuts outs. Everyone murders everyone, but they others are all saints because they do it for good causes, while Cersei gets painted as evil by way of slut shaming. Very hypocritical of the forum

But would just get me weird looks, so not doing it. *cheers*

[Samwise]

Cersei gets painted as evil by way of slut shaming

 

Oh, was that the weird look you were talking about?

[Ozzu]

I do wonder where they're going with Sansa and Jon's relationship. She seemed happy with everyone proclaiming him "King of the North" until she glanced at Littlefinger and I assume remembered what he told her about being passed over for a bastard.

 

[MrHat]

I do wonder where they're going with Sansa and Jon's relationship. She seemed happy with everyone proclaiming him "King of the North" until she glanced at Littlefinger and I assume remembered what he told her about being passed over for a bastard.

 

[Samwise]

I felt so bad for Jon during that scene; he's trying to honor the rules of succession, because he's driven by duty more than anything, but the alliances he's built are so fragile he knows they won't survive him turning down all the people shouting his name in order to hand the reins to Sansa.

On the plus side, it didn't seem like Sansa minded (I might have missed the look she gave Littlefinger).  She was even saying Jon should take the lord's chamber after he'd had it prepared for her.  She's never seemed particularly motivated by power so much as survival, and Jon being in charge gives her a fairly comfortable position without any major responsibilities.

[Rendakor]

I thought that scene was more Littlefinger giving Sansa a look saying, "Look what you passed up," and implying some vengeance next season. My guess would be LF kills Sansa and then she becomes LSH.

[Ozzu]

That'd be interesting, but if that's the case:

[Rendakor]

[schild]

Ya'll gonna tell me about that league shit? -_-

[Viin]

Ya'll gonna tell me about that league shit? -_-

Well it's over for this season. Next season we will do it again. Watch this thread ;)

[Chimpy]

That'd be interesting, but if that's the case:

[Rendakor]

[Speedy Cerviche]

... but the alliances he's built are so fragile he knows they won't survive him turning down all the people shouting his name in order to hand the reins to Sansa.

A bunch of them cited his recent battlefield leadership & bravery too.

[Samwise]

Rhaegar was next in line for the throne when the Mad King died, so if he had any children, they would inherit (males first).  That's why the Lannisters killed Rhaegar's children, which in turn is why Lyanna wanted Jon's parentage kept secret.

There's no such thing as "secret married," though, and bastards don't get to inherit anything.  Jon has no legal claim on anything.  Even if he had, there's a pretty strong argument that when he took the black he'd have forfeited any such claims (like Aemon Targaryen forfeited his claim to the throne by taking the black), death and resurrection notwithstanding.

[pants]

Rhaegar was next in line for the throne when the Mad King died, so if he had any children, they would inherit (males first).  That's why the Lannisters killed Rhaegar's children, which in turn is why Lyanna wanted Jon's parentage kept secret.

There's no such thing as "secret married," though, and bastards don't get to inherit anything.  Jon has no legal claim on anything.  Even if he had, there's a pretty strong argument that when he took the black he'd have forfeited any such claims (like Aemon Targaryen forfeited his claim to the throne by taking the black), death and resurrection notwithstanding.

However there is some psuedo precedent for bastard Targaryens - there is mention of the Blackfyre rebellions a century or so ago, which is covered in more detail in the Dunk and Egg books Martin wrote when he should have been finishing A song of ice and fire.  That talks about bastard Targaryens who lead a rebellion, and ultimately fail.  So while I agree Jon has no legal claim, people have been put on thrones for shakier grounds than being a last remaining bastard of a royal line.  Particularly if you push the 'Women shouldn't be on a throne' line.

[Samwise]

Well sure -- Robert claimed the throne just by being the first one to park his ass in it when the previous dynasty had finished dying.  Whoever offs Cersei can pretty much do the same thing since there are no more Baratheons left alive and no Lannisters who'd even try to make a claim.

[Khaldun]

I really, really do not think Jon's parentage is interesting because of what he stands to inherit. I think that's kind of the point of the entire series/books: by the time this is done, inheritance of aristocratic lines is a done, done, done thing in Westeros. This is the point of Varys' speech a long ways back: power is a shadow. It works only when people believe in it. The aristocracy of Westeros have thoroughly rubbished the entire idea of aristocratic power in this crisis, about as badly as the nobility of France did in the 20 years prior to the French Revolution.

So the thing about Jon is not that he's entitled to the Iron Throne, which already almost doesn't exist. It's that he can ride a dragon, perhaps, or that the magic that is surging in the world of Westeros will have a focal point in him. In that, Martin is still doing the whole "magic follows blood" trope, which is a kind of slightly too bad but ok, we're used to it, thing. But I think that's the only thing anyone's going to care about when Bran and maybe Reed show up to tell everyone the truth about Jon. I suppose Littlefinger will try to convince Sansa that it's one more kind of bullshit that Jon is pulling, assuming Littlefinger is still with us by the time we get there.

[lamaros]

The books and show are mostly interested in political machinations and, taken from a human historical standpoint, this feels fairly reasonable. Political power within established human states was largely confined by class in the time periods Martin apes. The magic follows blood stuff is naff, but it'd only really grate if the story was more of a history of magical revolution.

The more interesting question is how do they bring the series to an enjoyable end. I'm not as sure as you that the point of the series is the death of aristocracy, as its mostly concerned with internal power struggles and alien invasion, not a class/economic struggle. I think it would be a difficult stretch to bridge to that kind of conclusion given the tone of the series to date (magic unbound by blood would have lead to that more readily).

On the other hand making something interesting and satisfying by demystifying the magical resurgence in the world is very very hard. I can't think of too many series in any medium that have managed that; making something interesting by making it ineffable is much easier to do than by pulling off the sheet.

[satael]

Maybe GRRM will troll everyone and the show ends with Night's King sitting on the throne of swords and then it fades to black as GRRM's laughter echoes on thru the end credits... 

[eldaec]

... but the alliances he's built are so fragile he knows they won't survive him turning down all the people shouting his name in order to hand the reins to Sansa.

A bunch of them cited his recent battlefield leadership & bravery too.

Events in this episode make me suspect his claim is backed by Robb's will. Jumping all the way from "sorry we didn't help with the Boltons" to "KINGINDANORF!" makes much more sense if you imagine Lady Mormont, Howland Reed, and the Blackfish produced the will and a pregnant Jeyne Stark.

Also coming back to the question of what Jon inherits, as a bastard he inherits nothing. But if Robb's will legitimises Jon, and it has been established that Kings have that in their gift, he immediately becomes the rightful king of westeros, but only from the standpoint of anyone who saw Robb as a rightful king.

Can't imagine Jon ever sitting the Iron Throne, I can't even imagine he'll ever travel South of Winterfell. But I could imagine it being a plot point, at least in the books.

As mentioned above, Dragon whispering is probably the more significant strategic value of Targ blood.

[MediumHigh]

Saw it, loved it. great, great episode. Magnifikat. Beautiful.

Can only go downhill from here

/Trump


I was actually in the process of writing a longer, serious post arguing that a) Cersei is if not a good at least a human character and very relatable. As opposed to mary sues or boring cuts outs. Everyone murders everyone, but they others are all saints because they do it for good causes, while Cersei gets painted as evil by way of slut shaming. Very hypocritical of the forum

But would just get me weird looks, so not doing it. *cheers*

Ignoring the incest
Ignoring the fact that she killed her husband
Ignoring the fact that she killed all her husbands true born and bastard born children
Ignoring the fact that she raised Joffery
Ignoring the fact that she raised Tommen
Ignoring the fact that she used a priest for the express purpose of torturing and humiliating her sons wife

And that's just the show feats not even counting episode 10, ignoring all this... yeah she is being slut shamed. I mean all she did was sleep with her cousin whats so unrelatable about that 

[eldaec]

Her husband had a true born child?

Or are we getting into abortion theories related to the miscarriage?

[Merusk]

Yes, her actual first-born was black-haired and Robert's child. Died of a fever and was only mentioned once in the series.
http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Cersei's_black-haired_son

In the books she mentions that she took great efforts not to get impregnated by Robert, but had an abortion once when she couldn't be sure it was Jamie's.

[Amarr HM]

I don't find the Tyrion and Daeny relationship plausible. Thankfully Cersei is there to nullify the shitness across the sea. Even Sansa is now kicking ass.

[kaid]

Pretty tough for anybody to prove his lineage though other than bran but I saw it in a dream probably does not carry a ton of weight. Danny is pretty widely known with a clear/known lineage. Still it likely does mean that Jon could ride one of the dragons if anybody but danny can.

[MediumHigh]

Yes, her actual first-born was black-haired and Robert's child. Died of a fever and was only mentioned once in the series.
http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Cersei's_black-haired_son

In the books she mentions that she took great efforts not to get impregnated by Robert, but had an abortion once when she couldn't be sure it was Jamie's.

Considering she told this to Caitlyn, after she just ordered Jaime to kill her son 12 hours ago. I'd take her crocodile tears with a grain of salt.

[HaemishM]

I'm not sure it matters who has any legal claim to the Iron Throne since by the time Dany gets to Westeros, there likely won't be a fucking Iron Throne left to sit upon. The only armies loyal to the crown these days are the Lannisters and the Freys. The latter have no leaders anymore unless armies take orders from pies. The Lannisters through the crown are in such dire financial straits with the Iron Bank that they are soon going to run out of gold to pay their armies, not to mention everyone fucking hates them and the only real strong ally they had was the Tullys and their great stores of grain - and that alliance is now shot to shit thanks to Cersei turning their entire line of succession into Mint Smores. And that's not even getting into what the small people are going to make of their "Queen" turning the house of worship of one of the largest religions into a goddamn campfire for gods. Oh yeah, and all the other houses/kingdoms IN the Seven Kingdoms are either in open or quiet revolt.

There is no Iron Throne, at least not without a unifying force - which won't be Jon Snow and his questionable leadership skills. Dragons, willpower and the threat of getting turned into Zombie-cicles is the only thing that will remake the Seven Kingdoms.