Can you have a MMO without loot?

[Ratman_tf]

Reading the OP's post, he's differentiating between xp and levels and gained abilities verus a sword or a gun or a +5 Condom of I Want To Finish College.

So high scores would fall under XP. Mario's invulnerability stars and Pac Power dots would fall under buffs.

And I think you can make a MMOG where there's no loot. Planetside is a good example since the equipment is a tool and not an objective in itself. And you don't loot enemy players in order to get a chance at a more powerful version of a specific weapon.

[Khaldun]

I think loot in a persistent-world MMOG needs to be persistent for it to be appropriate to the genre. Rewards in games that just last for one session are "loot" of a sort (objects in the game environment that the character can collect or use which are a result of the player's actions), but non-persistent rewards in MMOGs don't seem to me to pose a distinctive question about the MMOG form.

[UnSub]

This was my first inclination as well but I think the OP is driving at a different definition of what loot is.
He seems to be saying loot as in items dropped from bad guys you defeat.

Dropped items are but one part of loot.

I was a bit vague in the first post, but I wanted to see the replies.

To split hairs (and probably sent this thread straight to the Design forum) there are two kinds of reward models you can offer within MMOs (that I can think of right now): deterministic and probabilistic. Deterministic is XP, points, high score, achievements - you do a specific task to get a specific reward. Probabilistic is loot drops, random events, temporary power-ups... can't think of any others - during the course of play you get a random reward.

The ChampO argument circles around that probabilistic loot doesn't fit the superhero genre - everything is related to powers and powers don't get random upgrades. To a smaller extent items don't fit within the superhero genre, because what is more important are the powers a character has. Superheroes don't loot off their fallen opponents, don't need to carry around food or crafting tools or anything like that because it goes against the genre. They don't get random rewards for fighting.

I disagree to a large extent - Batman has 'looted' his opponents for technological advantage (OMAC), often characters are fighting over a loot MacGuffin, there are a few superhero crafters such as Forge - but I also think they are arguing from the wrong side in trying to make a video game into a comic book when a lot of the genre conventions are pretty weak (e.g. secret identities. Yeah, everyone loves pretending to be a powerless nerd like Clark Kent - there's some powerful escapism for you) especially in-game. Superheroes should be centred around their powers, but a bit of gear - for rounding out a character, for providing a few more options - doesn't hurt, nor does getting that random power-up you wanted having just defeated a mob.

Didn't know about ToonTown, so thanks for that.

[Xanthippe]

ToonTown

No loot.

Fishing doesn't count as looting?

I like loot of some kind in games, whether it's fishing or other resource gathering, but the best loot was the plink from Diablo2 when a gem of some type dropped.

[Grimwell]

I can see where fishing should count. When I posted ToonTown as my response I was thinking that there isn't anything transferable between folks that resembles loot.  You fish and get the fish, nobody else can take them from you.

[schild]

I feel the urge to write rising.

[Ratman_tf]

I feel the urge to write rising.

That's just gas.

[TheCastle]

I feel the urge to write rising.

huh?
Should I run for cover or something??

[Velorath]

The ChampO argument circles around that probabilistic loot doesn't fit the superhero genre - everything is related to powers and powers don't get random upgrades. To a smaller extent items don't fit within the superhero genre, because what is more important are the powers a character has. Superheroes don't loot off their fallen opponents, don't need to carry around food or crafting tools or anything like that because it goes against the genre. They don't get random rewards for fighting.

The reality is that sometimes you have to make gameplay decisions that don't exactly fit in with the source material.  If you read the Lord of the Rings books, you don't see random magic items just dropping off every 5th or 6th random orc that gets killed.  That's something that P&P games and then CRPGs added in.

[Xanthippe]

Don't these arguments generally end up with people talking about how you don't do things in games that you do in real life and vice versa anyway?  Trying to be too realistic or true to the genre or whatever could well net you a very boring game.

[UnSub]

Don't these arguments generally end up with people talking about how you don't do things in games that you do in real life and vice versa anyway?  Trying to be too realistic or true to the genre or whatever could well net you a very boring game.

Yeah - the same people who say that superheroes don't loot are willing to ignore the fact setting someone on fire with your radioactive plasma probably isn't just going to make them fall over unconscious so they can be arrested.

[Litigator]

The idea of a persistent space should have a purpose for existing beyond a lot of players occupying the same space.  That end alone is not only insufficient; it's counterproductive. 

MMOs have not become public spaces for dynamic roleplaying, where various player-characters assume the roles taken by computer-controlled characters in single-player games; instead, MMOs are people doing essentially the same thing as players in a single-player RPG do; going up against NPC enemies at the behest of NPC characters.

In the absence of some compelling reason to do this, the MMORPG experience is inferior in a lot of ways to a single player RPG.  Nobody in a single player RPG will ever roll into town and kill your questgiver, forcing you to wait for it to respawn.  If you want to kill an annoying NPC in a single player game, you can be given the choice to do so; in an MMO, it has to respawn for use by other people.  You won't ever have to wait for the enemy you're hunting to respawn because someone killed it.  You won't ever be killed by some random player while fighting your epic battle. 

In a single player RPG, you can also control the destiny of the world and be an important character in the story.  Playing an MMO makes you a generic or anonymous hero.  You may get to fight alongside an important character, but you never become one.

Because neither the world nor the story can revolve around the player as a consequence of other players using the space, sharing the space with other players is not an end unto itself.  Let's be real, even if most of the players were interested in roleplaying in the game, and we aren't, it wouldn't take very many people to counterbalance the benefit of such a community in terms of gameplay.  And, if we're there to make friends, the game becomes a glorified chat room.

Just like other online gamers, MMO players don't come to RPG, they come to game.  And loot is the most obvious thing that makes it rewarding to play a persistent character in a persistent unending world, where you don't get the benefit of "You win" at the end of the round. 

The allure of a persistent character is in the ability to advance and improve that character, and improve your character's status within the game's social ladder, ordinarily by making him more powerful.

Of course, when you talk about RNG loot drops or arbitrary rare drops, those are not necessary. The pendulum seems to be shifting from powerful stuff being a "winning lotto ticket" to being a consequence of achieving difficult things; i.e. killing a nasty boss most people won't make the effort to beat, or prevailing in PvP.  WoW has been progressing in a direction of trying to reward players with something less random than a roll at a loot table by putting in token system, the badge of justice turn-ins, gear for reputation accomplishments and even NPCs who will take one loot in trade for another.

 

[Mrbloodworth]