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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  Warhammer Online (Moderator: tazelbain)  |  Topic: Capturing a T4 zone, or how I learned to love PvE 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: Capturing a T4 zone, or how I learned to love PvE  (Read 11505 times)
Bismallah
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on: November 10, 2008, 06:54:39 AM

I was in Thunder Valley yesterday, grinding away like usual watching football on tv, and noticed that there was a small group running around to the PQs and finishing them all the way through farming for gear. The blue bar was sliding ever so slightly towards the 'zone capture' mark. I got onto guild chat and told the folks who were mucking around in Dragonwake that we might be able to claim Thunder Valley so come on over! Plus I was tired of grinding Influence solo.

We pulled our entire warband, well, 2 full groups and change (since out of a 350 man guild w/alts we have a maximum of 20-25 folks that play now regularly) over and started to get groups formed up to head out. We began doing the Chapter 17 quests, blew through them, bar was moving nicely (couple points per PQ completion). One of the group members had an add-on that told the exact number that we had towards capture and relayed it through chat. 66-7, 68-7, 72-7, and so on. We queued the Thunder Valley/Dwarf Scenarios so we could try to win those to flip the zone even quicker. (Note: I turned in about 10 quests at once to see if questing did anything for the bar, nada, didnt even budge)

Chapter 18, mid way through the PQs, we are on a roll. We are up to about 92-7 (not sure what the control mark is but its gotta be 100+) and blamo, one of the Scenarios pops. We are thinking, oh hell yes, we might get some nice points from this and flip the zone after the guys outside finish the PQ. We win the Scenario handily, 480-200ish, and we exit the Scenario... what do we find? The score for flipping the zone was WORSE then when we went in. We had already decayed down into the low 80s, nearly 10 points, by DOING AN RVR SCENARIO! I was furious. We spent the better part of two hours at that point farming the zone to try to get it flipped and we run the only pvp related thing we could do and won and we decayed points? We knew Destruction was out doing PvE but seriously? So they blocked our capture by spamming PQs faster then we did because over half of my warband was inside a Scenario? WTF kinda crap is that?

I've seen posts elsewhere talking about this same capture mechanic and this is just too much. For the record we controlled all the BOs, and Keeps, and never lost a single one, nothing was even challenged, and no swords popped up on the map at all for any PvP. No zone below ours was captured either.

Lesson learned, if you want to flip a zone, spam PvE PQs and hope for the best because unless the enemy comes out in force and you can kill them in open RvR then you're screwed... The only thing I can think of is that Destruction massed up every swinging dick they had in the T4 (which was probably 30-40 total, heh) and started spamming Chapter 19 which would give higher XP rates across the board for folks and went through the PQs crazy fast. By crazy fast, I mean at least one every 5 minutes completely through because that rate of decay was fierce. We verified that no one was out RvR'ng and getting killed, we even had someone scout the BOs just in case something wasnt showing up on the map properly and nada.

Great design Mythic, pure awesome.

raydeen
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Reply #1 on: November 10, 2008, 07:51:29 AM

I'm beginning to think Mythic hired Bill O'Reilly to beta test WAR.

"FUCKING THING SUCKS! WE'LL DO IT LIVE!! WE'LL DO IT LIVE!!!!!"

I was drinking when I wrote this, so sue me if it goes astray.
Bismallah
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Reply #2 on: November 10, 2008, 08:00:34 AM

Hah, quite possibly.

I was an Elder tester and almost always Order. We got our asses stomped by overwhelming numbers so bad that we didn't even bother checking the mechanic for zone capture because we lost nearly all the zones regardless of what we did to try to stop it.

I read the grab bag, I read through other posts of people trying to figure out what in the world they need to do "capture" a zone and I still can't make heads or tails of the mechanic. It seems to be mostly PvE based, if you already own all the BOs and Keeps, which to me is mind boggling.

After Thursday, I don't think I will care much though...
Geki
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Reply #3 on: November 10, 2008, 08:07:15 AM

I read the grab bag, I read through other posts of people trying to figure out what in the world they need to do "capture" a zone and I still can't make heads or tails of the mechanic. It seems to be mostly PvE based, if you already own all the BOs and Keeps, which to me is mind boggling.


Just do what we elders always did, wait for the devs to flip it for us....  awesome, for real
tazelbain
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tazelbain


Reply #4 on: November 10, 2008, 10:01:56 AM

This my first weekend of playing T4 RvR and I so in agreement to the OP.  Any PvP that happens is incidental.  It is player versus victory points.  And even when we go and run the PQs, the VP they provide decay too quick to be any use.  Not that it matters because once we start doing PQs everyone gets bored and leaves.  And Destro leaves the RvR lake because they know that not playing is the perfect defense.

It's hard really find an optimism going forward.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2008, 10:26:29 AM by tazelbain »

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Mrbloodworth
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Reply #5 on: November 10, 2008, 10:09:57 AM

I'm just going to toss this out there. But there has been some really hot ORvR action on Pragg all weekend, in fact i think on Saturday the keep (in the tier 2 Greenskin) flipped about 5 times during my day long play session, not to mentions PvP happening at any PQ where paths cross, on top of all of this, it has been really easy to get an entire war band together to run around and do chapter PQ's.

I have screen shots to prove it too.

As far as victory points, could it be that the other side was doing just what you were doing, and when you stopped (Scenario) you simply lost ground.

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Vinadil
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Reply #6 on: November 10, 2008, 10:14:04 AM

Bis I think I am on the same server... or at least there is someone with your name on Ostermark.  But, our dwarf guilds have been trying to re-flip Thunder Mountain for a good week now.  It is about as fun as banging your head against a wall, and about as useful so far.  The highest we have seen it was 88-0, and then we spent another 2 hours queued for a never-popping scenario and killing any destrucion who popped into the zone (about 40 in 2 hours), and we actually lost points.  It was good times, good times.

Until they give the keeps/BOs some type of Dynamic Point generation it will just be a stupid mechanic.  I don't know why they felt the need to totally change the system from what they use in Scenarios.  If you hold more of the right points than the enemy... you WILL win the scenario.  That seems like it would work in the RVR lakes too.  Heck, I would rather pull a 24-hour defensive shift defending Keeps that the stupid PQ/Empty scenario junk we are trying right now.
BitWarrior
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Reply #7 on: November 10, 2008, 10:23:10 AM

Of all the games I've ever played, this game tempts me the most towards being an armchair developer.

Ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put.
Trippy
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Reply #8 on: November 10, 2008, 10:35:15 AM

Until they give the keeps/BOs some type of Dynamic Point generation it will just be a stupid mechanic.  I don't know why they felt the need to totally change the system from what they use in Scenarios.  If you hold more of the right points than the enemy... you WILL win the scenario.  That seems like it would work in the RVR lakes too.  Heck, I would rather pull a 24-hour defensive shift defending Keeps that the stupid PQ/Empty scenario junk we are trying right now.
My belief is that the original design of the zone capture system was setup so that the "zerg" (i.e. the side with an overwhelming population advantage) couldn't just steamroll the outnumbered side so all the zones would always be controlled by the zerg. Your suggestion would facilitate that since it would easy for the zerg to always hold all the BOs.

By making scenarios count towards zone control, however, a smaller but better coordinated/more experienced group of players could keep the zerg from controlling the zone by consistently winning the scenarios.

Of course they now have the opposite problem where it's too easy for the outnumbered side to keep the zerg from controlling the zone by doing, uh, nothing.
BitWarrior
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Reply #9 on: November 10, 2008, 10:46:27 AM

My belief is that the original design of the zone capture system was setup so that the "zerg" (i.e. the side with an overwhelming population advantage) couldn't just steamroll the outnumbered side so all the zones would always be controlled by the zerg. Your suggestion would facilitate that since it would easy for the zerg to always hold all the BOs.

By making scenarios count towards zone control, however, a smaller but better coordinated/more experienced group of players could keep the zerg from controlling the zone by consistently winning the scenarios.

Of course they now have the opposite problem where it's too easy for the outnumbered side to keep the zerg from controlling the zone by doing, uh, nothing.


And whatever happened to that wonderful mechanic of the Dogs of War helping out the less populated side? That was one idea which early on was selling me on WAR - balancing out the sides in a somewhat transparent and natural way. Now we're just left with hard requirements designed to split up groups into fun (RvR, theoretically) and not fun (PvE). Great.

Ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put.
Bismallah
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Reply #10 on: November 10, 2008, 10:56:39 AM

Yes Vin, I am on Ostermark. I saw some Dwarfs out in Thunder Valley doing all the PQs so that's why I alerted my guild to form up and come out there to help you guys out. We can flip it once again, but damn is that mechanic tough to figure out. We won that Cemetary like Scenario (forget the name) but we were in Cinderfall at the time doing PQs so we think that might be why we decayed a little. I guess we have to stay in the main Thunder Valley zone and not in the side zones to help the overall capture.

We have some more ideas, namely starting with the Chapter 19 PQs and working our way down since we think there is a link to the amount of xp/inf earned per character or something... so the higher PQs would gain/net the higher xp/influence for our members (most of which are 32-35). We'll test them out, but in the end it appears that most of the capture is still linked to PvE which I still find absurd for an RvR game.

Unfortunately, I went back over to Empire to start with Chapter 20 and work through the Epic line but if I hear anything about Thunder Valley I can come over and give it another try. It's really up to what the guildies want to do.

Hindenburg
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Itto


Reply #11 on: November 10, 2008, 11:00:36 AM

And whatever happened to that wonderful mechanic of the Dogs of War helping out the less populated side? That was one idea which early on was selling me on WAR - balancing out the sides in a somewhat transparent and natural way. Now we're just left with hard requirements designed to split up groups into fun (RvR, theoretically) and not fun (PvE). Great.

Easier to change some rule values than to create a competent AI.
They could always just lift the AI from some botting program, but nah.

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Evildrider
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Reply #12 on: November 10, 2008, 04:06:16 PM

This my first weekend of playing T4 RvR and I so in agreement to the OP.  Any PvP that happens is incidental.  It is player versus victory points.  And even when we go and run the PQs, the VP they provide decay too quick to be any use.  Not that it matters because once we start doing PQs everyone gets bored and leaves.  And Destro leaves the RvR lake because they know that not playing is the perfect defense.

It's hard really find an optimism going forward.

The problem is the lower tiers.  We capped Praag last night and got the Chaos Wastes to 97% but then destro left and we started losing points to decay even when we had people doing PQ's and scenarios.  Then we all noticed that Destro had went and capped all of T2 and T3.  If our T3 group would have stayed there instead of coming to us to help, we probably would have flipped the zone as well.  Problem was it was like 2am on a Sunday night.. so players were dropping off like flies.
GoodIdea
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Reply #13 on: November 10, 2008, 04:07:54 PM

My server took 3 zones this weekend and attacked a fortress. I'll tell you what happenned to your zone flip since I've been looking at it for weeks now.

>>We win the Scenario handily, 480-200ish, and we exit the Scenario... what do we find? The score for flipping the zone was WORSE then when we went in. >>We had already decayed down into the low 80s, nearly 10 points, by DOING AN RVR SCENARIO! I was furious

What happenned is since you were queued for a scenario in a zone where the opponents were not participating, you were accumulating TEMPORARY victory points by the other side fortfeiting (not showing up). Unfortunately, you lose those victory points as soon as a scenario pops or you leave Q.

So in your example, say you accumulated 20 VPs through forfeit. You win your scenario and you gain 10 permanent VPs!!! Hurray!! Unfortunately you lost 10 VPs net. The good news is that if you sit in the scenario queue for longer, you can push the cap even further and take the zone (or they will show up in the scenario again and you can earn permanent VP).

In my experience, to lock a zone you need:
1) Around 3 full WBs and 2 hours of commitment at least.

2) You all go into the zone you wish to take and to queue for scenarios ONLY related to that zone. With enough players, it won't matter if a scenario or two pops, you'll be getting permanent and temporary VPs from scenarios.

3) Stomp any opposition in open rvr and try to minimize your own deaths by zerging. By the sounds of things, there is no opposition, which is fine.

4) One of the other problems with scenario VPs is that they also degrade over time. This is why you need that 3 full warbands... it's a critical mass of people you need to push the VP over the top.

5) PQs matter a little, but they don't matter that much. Honestly, the only reason you should farm them is to keep your people in the zone and to give them something to do if there is no open rvr or scenarios. But that's about it, they aren't worth your time honestly.

6) The T2 and T3 keeps matter! What worked for us is that we captured them all on Thursday night and it made the difference on Friday night, the zones were much easier to take (1 hour). For people who enjoy T2 but don't enjoy T4, you can still be helpful to your guild without being in T4. Personally, I just made an alt.


Now the problem is getting 2-3 WBs. This usually takes a good guild or guild alliance effort. Like I said, our guild alliance this weekend flipped 4 zones on Friday night in around 6 hours, so it is possible with enough people, even without open rvr. After we took Praag and Thunder Mountain, there was open rvr... and it was good!!


« Last Edit: November 10, 2008, 04:15:34 PM by GoodIdea »
BitWarrior
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Reply #14 on: November 10, 2008, 04:20:26 PM

Honestly, flipping a zone is starting to sound like some sort of a joke straight out of a Coen brothers movie.

Ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put.
Nebu
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Reply #15 on: November 10, 2008, 04:21:45 PM

Honestly, flipping a zone is starting to sound like some sort of a joke straight out of a Coen brothers movie.

No shit.  Where in points 1-6 is "teh fun" located? 

Do MMO gamers really like poking themselves with sharp objects THAT much?  swamp poop

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
ghost
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Reply #16 on: November 10, 2008, 05:06:38 PM

 Where in points 1-6 is "teh fun" located? 

Do MMO gamers really like poking themselves with sharp objects THAT much?  swamp poop
[/quote]

I'd rather mine in Eve online.
Bismallah
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Reply #17 on: November 10, 2008, 06:38:41 PM

Ice mine that is...
rk47
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Reply #18 on: November 10, 2008, 09:40:13 PM

LOL at taking lower tier shit matter in t4.
holy fuck batman, keeping alts for taking lower tier is WRONG WRONG WRONG.

Colonel Sanders is back in my wallet
Bismallah
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Reply #19 on: November 11, 2008, 06:30:05 AM

rk47, I had a guildie just last nite that had to do that.

They were trying to claim Thunder Valley again, we were running around trying to get some things done in Chaos Waste and he says and I quote: "You guys got any T2 alts, we have to claim the keeps so we can lock T4 Thunder Valley." I just shook my head. He's a freggin kick ass 40 Swordmaster, yet he had to get on his T2 alt to try and help lock a zone, /boggle




Fordel
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Reply #20 on: November 11, 2008, 06:36:23 AM

It's possible that it's simply broken. I don't mean in design (which it obviously is that way too), but literally just not working yet.  awesome, for real

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Vinadil
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Reply #21 on: November 11, 2008, 10:04:47 AM

We got Thunder Mountain to flip... and it seemed to be because of many of these things working together.  We actually DID have guys from our guild playing T2/3 alts (and yea, I rant on that in Vent all the time... so stupid) just so that we could push the zone that last 4 points.  We sat at like 92 (you need 97) and with a scenario win plus the help from below it finally pushed through.

I suppose the work needed was not THAT tough now that we have seen it happen... it only took a couple hours.  And, I am not positive that the T2/3 stuff was necessary... but if it was, then that is one of my biggest concerns long-term.  If T2/3 stuff is going to be that influential on end-game stuff then they need a new mechanic besides the chicken.
Bismallah
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Reply #22 on: November 11, 2008, 10:25:36 AM

Vin, some things we learned through a bug report (Gavi filed one, finally got a response) it might help you out as well:

1. "Wing" zones like Cinderfall and West Praag do NOT count towards zone capture.  So all those pq's we've done in those areas have meant nothing.  :(
 
2. Because the zones don't count towards the campaign, you cannot queue for scenarios in those zones.
 
3. If you queue for a scenario and then move into a wing zone, the points you gain from winning that scenario will count.  The campaign does not take into consideration which zone you were "pulled" from, just which scenario you won.
 
4. The Victory Point addon is not accurate.  It is a series of guesses based on previous client data pulled by the add-on's creator.  The CSR ( or dev.. not really sure who this person was but I'm gonna assume a CSR) said that Victory Point data is purposely vague and the addon, to be accurate, would have to pull server data- something that apparently is not allowed.  I'm not really sure about that explanation but it sounds feasible.
Lantyssa
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Reply #23 on: November 11, 2008, 10:46:11 AM

I suppose the work needed was not THAT tough now that we have seen it happen... it only took a couple hours.  And, I am not positive that the T2/3 stuff was necessary... but if it was, then that is one of my biggest concerns long-term.  If T2/3 stuff is going to be that influential on end-game stuff then they need a new mechanic besides the chicken.
Hi!  I've been saying they need a de-level mechanism since I started paying attention. smiley

Of course, I think having levels in a PvP game is silly anyways...

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
Hindenburg
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Itto


Reply #24 on: November 11, 2008, 10:55:28 AM

Vin, some things we learned through a bug report (Gavi filed one, finally got a response) it might help you out as well:

1. "Wing" zones like Cinderfall and West Praag do NOT count towards zone capture.  So all those pq's we've done in those areas have meant nothing.  :(
 
2. Because the zones don't count towards the campaign, you cannot queue for scenarios in those zones.
 
3. If you queue for a scenario and then move into a wing zone, the points you gain from winning that scenario will count.  The campaign does not take into consideration which zone you were "pulled" from, just which scenario you won.
 
4. The Victory Point addon is not accurate.  It is a series of guesses based on previous client data pulled by the add-on's creator.  The CSR ( or dev.. not really sure who this person was but I'm gonna assume a CSR) said that Victory Point data is purposely vague and the addon, to be accurate, would have to pull server data- something that apparently is not allowed.  I'm not really sure about that explanation but it sounds feasible.

Retarded mechanics are retarded.

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dd0029
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Reply #25 on: November 11, 2008, 11:02:43 AM

So, you need to be in the zone to be captured to que for the appropriate scenario and then have the points count?  You can't make use of the handy que anywhere and have the points count?  If that's the case, I would like to take a moment to say, wtf batman.
Bismallah
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Reply #26 on: November 11, 2008, 11:09:47 AM

FYI, you cant even queue the scenarios in the side zones like Cinderfall. You have to run back into the main zone, Thunder Valley in this example, queue, then go back to whatever you were doing should you have a Scenario pop while you are in the side zones.
HaemishM
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Reply #27 on: November 11, 2008, 11:26:45 AM

It's possible that it's simply broken. I don't mean in design (which it obviously is that way too), but literally just not working yet.  awesome, for real

We'd better hope so. Because the population problems that already exist at lower tiers (PQ's empty, oRVR lakes empty) are only going to get worse as everyone levels into T4. I cannot help but think that it doesn't take a prophet to see that if your t4 endamge relies on there being a critical mass of people who haven't hit the tier cap, you are well and truly fucked 2-3 months into the game. Taz was hoping that t3 had some kind of oRVR going on last night because they were trying to flip the t4 zone. And t3 was dead.

ghost
The Dentist
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Reply #28 on: November 11, 2008, 12:22:53 PM

It's possible that it's simply broken. I don't mean in design (which it obviously is that way too), but literally just not working yet.  awesome, for real

We'd better hope so. Because the population problems that already exist at lower tiers (PQ's empty, oRVR lakes empty) are only going to get worse as everyone levels into T4. I cannot help but think that it doesn't take a prophet to see that if your t4 endamge relies on there being a critical mass of people who haven't hit the tier cap, you are well and truly fucked 2-3 months into the game. Taz was hoping that t3 had some kind of oRVR going on last night because they were trying to flip the t4 zone. And t3 was dead.

Holy shit.  If this is what has to happen then they better rethink things yesterday.  There are so many ways this game is screwed up.  I want my 65 bucks back.......well, my time too, but I guess that won't happen.
tazelbain
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tazelbain


Reply #29 on: November 11, 2008, 02:41:05 PM

The static vp number needed to flip a zone are based on Mythic hypothetical zone population.  The reality of zone population is no where near lololand estimate.  For example the expect all the scenrios to be run and your team needs to win the majority of them to flip the zone.  The truth is most of them run close to zero times.  And few that do run are irrelevant because they decay quickly.  So there is a substantial amount of vp that are basically abandoned making it extremely hard to flip zones.


"Me am play gods"
Vash
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Reply #30 on: November 11, 2008, 03:24:52 PM

 
The static vp number needed to flip a zone are based on Mythic hypothetical zone population.  The reality of zone population is no where near lololand estimate.  For example the expect all the scenrios to be run and your team needs to win the majority of them to flip the zone.  The truth is most of them run close to zero times.  And few that do run are irrelevant because they decay quickly.  So there is a substantial amount of vp that are basically abandoned making it extremely hard to flip zones.



Beating a Dead Horse

Hate to beat the dead horse more than it already has been since it's glue at this point, but mabey thats what happens when you take 1000+ beta testers, give them rank 31 template characters, throw them in T4 and say have at it.... then design your zone control mechanics around that type of population.

You'd like to think they had a little more foresight than that, but it doesn't appear to be the case.  swamp poop
eldaec
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Reply #31 on: November 11, 2008, 05:57:14 PM

I think 'making t1-3' matter is Mythic's retarded attempt to make new players matter, and to encourage vets to interact with them.

Note to Jacobs: Sidekicking ffs.

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Vinadil
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Reply #32 on: November 11, 2008, 07:48:47 PM

It's all good.  They just added a patch and reset everything.  The patch notes did not include this particular update, so I guess we are supposed to know it is assumed that all patches will reset the zone control.  yay for patch day!
Bismallah
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Reply #33 on: November 11, 2008, 08:19:01 PM

Yeah Vin, and then Destruction decides they want to push for Praag after its all reset.

Pure awesome.
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