Warhammer Hits 800k Players

[Arthur_Parker]

More official forum vn board goodness.

Linky

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Our sales are absolutely fabulous and as JR said, our conversion rate is not only high but it is higher than it was during our DAoC days by a nice margin.

Mark

______   (The quote option isn't working, no idea why)


I'm sorry but what?

In a post not too long ago you said that DAoC had a retention rate of 72% after the free month and according to EA the retention of Warhammer is 70%

http://investor.ea.com/events.cfm


As for fabulous sales, you obviously expected a lot more than this or you would not have opened too many servers. Nor would retailers have sent back 300k units


I'm not a hater but your obviously lying here

1) Our retention rate is higher than 70% based on current data.  DAoC was indeed 72% in North America.  WAR's number is higher and remains higher than DAoC since billing began.  I'm quite happy with WAR's numbers as they are exactly what I expected they would be.

2) No retailer has sent back copies of WAR, they are still selling nicely especially considering new games out/coming out, the economy, etc.

3) We opened the amount of servers we thought we would need for the sales volume we expected and opened a few extra to help with initial population load in the starter areas.  If we had opened too few, there would have been queues on most servers and people would have been screaming at us (just as they screamed at Blizzard for WoW's initial server queuing).  If we could have known the perfect number, we would have done that but we didn't so we took a guess and decided to open more rather than fewer servers.  We might have been better off opening fewer (obviously) but we figured we'd be better off erring on the side of making life easier for the players rather than making them queue. 

Those are the facts.

Oh, here's another fact FYI.  I've never, ever said anything about WAR hitting WoW's numbers or anything like that and since we have already sold more copies of WAR than any other MMO (with the usual caveat of maybe WoW since I don't have their exact numbers) during the first 6 weeks how can I be anything but pleased with that?  All my quotes/interviews have always focused on us being #2 as my goal and in terms of initial sales, well, we have met and/or exceeded that goal.  In a year we'll really be able to judge how successful WAR is overall.

Mark

Edit to add.

Interview up with Frank Gibeau here, it appears to be more quotes from the Eurogamer October 22nd piece.

Q: Blizzard's recently been quoted as saying players who dropped WoW to play Warhammer are already coming back. Is that something you've observed?

Frank Gibeau: No, actually our player numbers are increasing, so I don't know where they're getting that data. Our numbers are doing great. It's booming, both in Europe and North America. We haven't launched in Asia yet so that's going to be a big opportunity but it's one of the fastest-growing MMOs in the history of the industry and we didn't see our numbers cap out or slow down - they're continuing to crank.

So given WoW is also tens of millions subscribers right now there's a lot of room to manoeuvre there. and I think there are some people that have both and they're going to hold on to both and play both, because they have very different creative centres. WoW is very much a player-versus-environment game and Warhammer is a lot more realm-versus-realm and player-versus-player, so people will dabble in both.

We have a lot of WoW players in Warhammer right now but we also have a lot of people that don't play Warcraft and are coming in from Ultima and Dark Age of Camelot and frankly are new to the category, because they like the Warhammer licence. It's obviously got a very big following in Europe and we're doing extremely well there. In North America, we're doing great.

[Lakov_Sanite]

My bullshit detector is going crazy here.

 

[UnSub]

"Our numbers are going great" and "here, please have a free server transfer from all the low pop servers" don't really add up.

I don't doubt that WAR has sold well in its first month and a bit. It is the retention bit I question... perhaps people aren't cancelling their sub at the end of month one because they are waiting for the next set of patches to come out.

We'll see what the CEO has to say about it when they release their numbers.

[Riggswolfe]

"Our numbers are going great" and "here, please have a free server transfer from all the low pop servers" don't really add up.

They add up if they opened up too many servers as Mark said they did.

[tolakram]

"Our numbers are going great" and "here, please have a free server transfer from all the low pop servers" don't really add up.

Ah,

first off I have no idea if what Mythic claims is BS or not, but being part of a public company I would remind everyone that falsely claiming good numbers is a crime no matter when or how you mention it.

Second, the above statement shows how dangerous it is to merge or offer transfers.  It immediately appears to be signs of a failure, when it could be just a startup mistake. 

I tend to agree with the 'not doing very well' crowd though.

[Bismallah]

I do agree with the "not doing well" as I can plainly look at guild mates that haven't logged in over the past couple weeks. They flew through the levels, then blamo, disappeared. <shrug>

I'd rather have login queues then empty servers... that's just me. PR wise you can spin "look our servers are so full that we have queues to even get logged in!!" rather then "well, we overshot our server numbers and we are offering transfers, yeah we understand it's not even 2 months live, but what can you do".

[Vinadil]

The most important piece of all of this is exactly what Mr. Jacobs said... in a year everything will be clear.  Numbers are cloudy right now, the economy is cloudy, the gaming market is cloudy.  None of that will be the case a year from now.

The only questions that really matter are:

1. Is my server fun and does it have a good chance of staying fun into the future. (I say server rather than the "game" because from my reading here and other places your server has a HUGE weight on the fun factor).

2. Is Mythic making enough money to keep my server running.

Number 2 is really the only important factor in Mythic's earnings.  How many subs they have, how much money they are making... none of that is important if they are making enough to keep my server open... it only becomes relevant the day they have to close my server down.  Seeing as how DAoC is still running, I just don't see the server close down thing happening any time soon.  And, just to be clear, I am not saying they won't close down the low pop servers after transferring people off of them... but that is different than closing down ALL servers.

[khaine]

Jacbos keeps changing the rules on how to judge them,

At first it was look at us six weeks and six months out , if we're not opening new servers it's not good ,

Now it's look at us in a year

[Bismallah]

In a year I probably won't remember WAR much the same I don't remember Tabula Rasa... booming start and then crapola.

[tolakram]

Jacbos keeps changing the rules on how to judge them,

At first it was look at us six weeks and six months out , if we're not opening new servers it's not good ,

Now it's look at us in a year

We've seen 6 weeks out, now we'll have to wait for 6 months.  I do think there's a chance we see higher numbers in 6 months.  WAR seems too close to almost good for it to fail.  The only thing that will guarantee a failure is if Mythic does not fix the broken stuff and word of mouth is poor.  The tome of knowledge is the WoW bait in this game, and might draw in people looking for grinds (my biased opinion) too do.  The RvR, if fixed, is the DAoC or PvP bait.

There's also a range of unknowns (easiest PQ's, how to get into dungeons, various tome unlocks) that once known might improve word of mouth for that kind of player.

I see long term potential frustrated by short term design flaws.

[Thelg]

Well I been reading these boards time to time over a pretty long time.. decided to post first time.

First it is almost comical how much desire many people here have for the game to fail. It reminds me reading forums like freerepublic or democratic underground.

On to the issue, as MJ said, lying on those number is a good way to get charged especially considering that EA is doing badly financially if they end up in a real deep trouble all of this stuff can come up and bite him in a really bad way.

WAR problem are very server specific, some Skullthrone for example are a non-stop (atleast est and pst primetime) action, massive zergs, ganks grps just random people running around dying. Zones are filled with death spam. Some servers are dead.. very very dead. Some are somewhere in the middle. Even on slow progression server like the one I play on T3 open rvr is thriving.. over weekend I defended atleast a dozen keeps on my alt, dumped uncountable amount of oil had a great time.

Sky is not falling down, WOTLK is not going to kill this game. You know why people bitch about WoW on WAR boards? Simple there is a very large number of people who have no desire at all to do more PVE raiding EVER in their life, they have NO desire to ever afk in AV to get gear.. and WOTLK is just more of the same.

Is WAR a niche game, yes compared to wow. Same way I can go have my lunch at McDonalds or a "niche" sushi restaurnat. Both have their place, WAR took less then half of WoW time to develop, it will make a ton of $$ for all involved. If Mythic can avoid making massive blunders like TOA they will be fine.

[Bismallah]

"First it is almost comical how much desire many people here have for the game to fail."

Wrong, if people didnt care, they wouldnt post at all. You dont want that, you want folks talking about the game. How to fix it, how to make it better, what did they do wrong, what did they do right. No talk means no one cares.

Once again bringing up the "XXX will kill XXX" is a stupid line. No game will ever kill another game, period. There will always be that niche audience that keeps a game kicking long after the majority of players have moved on.

PvE raiding is in WAR, plain and simple. Did you even look at the armor sets you need to farm for the "wards" so you dont get insta ganked in King fights? Probably not. Well, there are multiple sets that tier up, just like WoW, imagine that. They had to do something middle of the road for players from both PvP and PvE genres to grab hold and embrace. Currently, both sides are lacking.

If Mythic did something like ToA I will consider them a hopeless case and probably never purchase another Mythic product.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Well I been reading these boards time to time over a pretty long time.. decided to post first time.

Considering you only even registered today, I'm going to check my bullshit meter again....oh look the lights are blinking.

First it is almost comical how much desire many people here have for the game to fail. It reminds me reading forums like freerepublic or democratic underground.

If you'd have even taken ten minutes to read this very forum, you'd know you were wrong.  Everyone posting here has bought the game and people don't spend $50 when they want something to fail. I know I'm personally too poor to want that.

On to the issue, as MJ said, lying on those number is a good way to get charged especially considering that EA is doing badly financially if they end up in a real deep trouble all of this stuff can come up and bite him in a really bad way.

I don't think mythic is 'lying' but they are using how shall we say...creative math, to come up with a number like 800k.

Even on slow progression server

Isn't this line the anti-thesis of what WAR is supposed to be?

Sky is not falling down, WOTLK is not going to kill this game. You know why people bitch about WoW on WAR boards? Simple there is a very large number of people who have no desire at all to do more PVE raiding EVER in their life, they have NO desire to ever afk in AV to get gear.. and WOTLK is just more of the same.

You either aren't playing warhammer or you aren't paying attention to your own game. WAR has a huge PVE grind cockblock and the endgame for warhammer is pve raiding, NOT pvp. Pvp is just one of the walls you have to breakthrough to get to the end content which is solely pve and about as fun as afk'ing in AV(which actually isn't in wow anymore anyways)

Is WAR a niche game, yes compared to wow. Same way I can go have my lunch at McDonalds or a "niche" sushi restaurnat. Both have their place, WAR took less then half of WoW time to develop, it will make a ton of $$ for all involved. If Mythic can avoid making massive blunders like TOA they will be fine.

If wow is mcdonalds then WAR is your local burger joint, it sure as fuck isn't sushi. It's fat, greasy and looks much worse with toppings spilling over the sides.  Oh sure some people will find it tastier but for most it's just far too inconvenient to try and eat and ends up giving you heartburn.

*You have lost 5 points in trolling*

[Ratman_tf]

I do agree with the "not doing well" as I can plainly look at guild mates that haven't logged in over the past couple weeks. They flew through the levels, then blamo, disappeared. <shrug>

I'd rather have login queues then empty servers... that's just me. PR wise you can spin "look our servers are so full that we have queues to even get logged in!!" rather then "well, we overshot our server numbers and we are offering transfers, yeah we understand it's not even 2 months live, but what can you do".

Especially in a game that heavily features PvP (RvR) There's nothing sadder than looking for a fight and not finding it.

[Vinadil]

I think the issue is that people are posting things here, in a thread about reported numbers, that should be posted in the "what went wrong" thread.  We all know the issues.  The funny thing to me is that people feel the need to discuss how EA is misreporting their numbers and then tagging on the in-game commentary as to how the numbers MUST be wrong... because of my personal experience in game.  Perhaps they ARE lying, and people are losing their jobs and eating beans and rice right now... but if so we will ALL know it in a few months and no, it does not make you smarter to say you knew it now.

As I said earlier, all of this has very little to do with the game we are playing and our enjoyment of it... but I suppose this whole forum banter is another game unto itself, and provides its own fun.  So, in that sense, continue playing!

On a side note, the recent server transfers brought quite a bit of life to my medium pop server.  We have actually had T4 PVP these last two nights and it looks like more to come.

[Ingmar]

A quick note about "subscribers" during the first free month for those of you counting. It's not unusual for people to hand over full subscription and CC information during the "Free" time. It's not unusual at all for some folks to do that, and you end up authorized to charge them. They are, in effect, subscribers.

You had to provide CC info for the free month of WAR. It's the only reason I paid for a second month, I didn't cancel in time. I suspect quite a few people did the same.

Odd. My sub for WAR automatically shut down after the first month without me doing a thing. Even if I did have to give them a card (which I don't remember) there had to be some "Yes charge me!" step, because I didn't take it, or do the "No, really, thanks... it's not you it's me" to make it stop.

Same.

[Thelg]

Well you see I usually try and not register for forums.. this way I can avoid starting to post and do some actual work. I post enough as it is. I never read f13 regularly, more of regular place to check if I wanted opinion on some games. I just noticed that game got dumped to graveyard and I don't know it just seems unfair, does it really deserve to be with AOC and PoTBS? :(

Anyway I was too confrontational, sorry. Before release it seemed people were actually interested in WAR doing well, now every statement that comes out is taken and twisted be a lie or whatever, thus comparison to partisan political forums. It is almost that people set their expectations of the game too high and got burned.

The whole deal with sets is very overblown, the first set is trivial to get, you gona get it before you need it most likely and if you are not a tank, you probably do not need it period. Second? I have no idea.. but it is nothing that can't be fixed. Reason for them is clear they want fake progression without inflating stats, it is stupid but it does not bother me much since this stuff is very fixable. When taking fortress there will be people with sets to take care of tanking lord, same applies to later encounters, I do not care one bit about getting phat epics from King. I care about stomping opposition and taking their cookies. Taking city (even if I can never kill king myself) is about 123193281 times more satisfying then doing Illidan, Arthas etc for me that is. Even defending they city and losing is more fun, brave last stand and all that in fact it is often more memorable. The niche part is the fact that players like me I guess are a minority.

Ok forget sushi a bit of different price range.. there is a Korean place near me that I can eat for $6, not exactly mass appeal but it is full all the time with people who actually wanna eat there, they got a great pork bone soup.. yummy.

[schild]

I just noticed that game got dumped to graveyard and I don't know it just seems unfair, does it really deserve to be with AOC and PoTBS? :(

The ideas of fair and unfair is for the birds.

This is about right and wrong. And at the rate their going, this is "right."

[Thelg]

I just noticed that game got dumped to graveyard and I don't know it just seems unfair, does it really deserve to be with AOC and PoTBS? :(

The ideas of fair and unfair is for the birds.

This is about right and wrong. And at the rate their going, this is "right."

Sure it is absolutely THE RIGHT THING TO DO! heh just explaining my reason for actually creating account after a long time of lurking.

[Slyfeind]

I hereby declare a 35% retention rate after the first month to be "ideal." I say this because nobody has made up their minds about it yet, and I like pulling numbers out of my ass. You heard it here first! 35% is IDEAL!

Holy crap, WAR has doubled the ideal retention rate!!!

I also notice that lately, everybody always makes more servers than they need at launch. Everybody...except for, strangely enough, A Tale in the Desert. I remember at Tale 3 launch where the lead developer literally broadcasted a system message saying "AFK everybody, I need to run to the store and get a new server." Back in the day, UO got it right the first time, and EQ underestimated the servers they needed. Both grew very well shortly after launch, and are still alive and attracting new users today.

But lately, everybody's overestimating their own popularity, and everybody has to consolidate servers after the first month. I wonder if this is something they have to do. Like maybe if they say they're expecting less than a million subscriptions, they lose their funding or something.

[UnSub]

WAR took less then half of WoW time to develop

Time counts for less than money after launch. Jacobs has said that WAR cost "south of $100 million" to develop but won't talk exact figures, so I wouldn't be surprised if it cost more to develop than WoW even accounting for inflation.

The armour sets are very raid-y and ToA-y and have caused a lot of people to roll their eyes - WAR was meant to be about RvR and PvP, period, not have an end-game focused around PvE grinding to unlock it.

"Our numbers are going great" and "here, please have a free server transfer from all the low pop servers" don't really add up.

They add up if they opened up too many servers as Mark said they did.

I'm not saying I don't understand what happened - more servers were opened to deal with server queues, then Mythic upgraded their servers, thus making the first step a very poor decision since the queues disappeared but more players experienced the terra nullius problem of WAR - I'm just saying that that the two issues are in conflict to some extent.

I'm looking forward to seeing the official numbers and what is actually reported. After all, 1.5 million boxes were shipped, 300k disappeared somewhere as 1.2m went to retailers who then sold enough of them that 800k accounts were activated in the first month and a bit. Perhaps WAR will announce over one million accounts have been established in WAR by including both active and inactive accounts from the point that the open beta started. We'll see.

And then we'll see again in six months.

[Bismallah]

The next quarter is the make or break quarter for WAR. Most of us that have played or actively play have seen the players leave, it's pretty hard to deny that. We have seen the transfers completely bork up other servers (I pity Order on Monolith, shudder). I have been in several arguments with an old acquaintance of mine about subscription rates and how companies love to exaggerate/flat out lie for marketing reasons. Just so happened this guy hated WoW with a passion of 1000 suns. He wouldn't even let his kids play it, well one did and he took their computer away (no lie, they were all doing DAOC and this guy took his oldest's computer away because the kid didn't want to do mind numbing ML10 raids over and over). Anyhow, this guy used to bag on WoW subscription numbers till the cows came home, every single day he would dig up press to find somewhere that Blizzard misrepresented a number or skewed a subscription rate (adding each pre-paid card as a seperate user, yadda yadda). Now look at WoW, back up to 11m and in their press releases (some of them) they actually define what they consider a subscriber... WAR should be as open and upfront, and I hope they are when the cards are flipped for everyone to see.

I really wanted to like and enjoy this game, but really in the end my issues might be more computer related then game related. I mean DAOC had huge imbalances at the get go, anyone remember Stungard? Healers could spam AE stun with no diminished returns... heh, glad I was Midgard at the time. But seriously, WAR will be around for awhile. Not in the same ballpark as WoW numbers wise or content wise but it will be there, it's a niche based game. Hell you could log into DAOC right now and probably find a keep take ongoing somewhere... (which btw is way more fun in DAOC then WAR). Problems or not people will play, but if I see more then 3-400k after December I'll be surprised. Which means for an IP as strong as the Warhammer/Games Workshop title to barely crack over what DAOC had at it's peak is a huge failure for Mythic and EA will not be pleased.

But, instead of bagging on them, I'd like to say "well, what went wrong" and fix it before the 40k MMO comes out. (and I hope those 40k folks are watching WAR and thinking eww... what a mess, let's not do that mmmmmk)

[tazelbain]

I never had a question whether or not WAR was going to go belly up.  It's not.  Whether or not WAR was going to break out of niche is really the issue. It's not.  It's too late.  There is too much bad word of mouth.  The time it is taking to correct all of WAR issues is too long.  People aren't going to sit around and wait for the game developer to twittle around with stuff.  Those days died with WoW.

[khaine]

I never had a question whether or not WAR was going to go belly up.  It's not.  Whether or not WAR was going to break out of niche is really the issue. It's not.  It's too late.  There is too much bad word of mouth.  The time it is taking to correct all of WAR issues is too long.  People aren't going to sit around and wait for the game the developer to twittle around with stuff.  Those days died with WoW.

this , THIS , is what I don't get -

After Vanguard to PotBS to all the other failures out there  , what does it take for a company to realize they HAVE to be both content ready and well tested at launch , day one , no second chances anymore

They could have tested just normal gameplay for a month 1-40 and week two would have shown the horrific scenario problem , more classes could have been in at launch , the engine more optimized to handle things after seeing how it works live

6 more months of REAL testing , not the focus'd in a vacuum only testing , could have made them a million subs that hang around for  a while ,

[Sophismata]

It's not quite that simple. I don't think testing alone could have saved them, either - also note that time to level was increased before launch.

I think WAR just has a skewed design - Mythic need to focus on what the want WAR to be, and get it there. Quickly.

[Bismallah]

I probably had in upwards of 50+ hours of "viewed" time on the beta boards for this. I got in with the BOOM! Studios comic book offer deal, kinda groovy. I was so excited to get into the beta, I logged in and I was like "this is it?" Much like some other reviews I was splitting my time with WoW that very weekend. Sure, I beta tested the hell outta that game and provided tons of feedback but did anything really change? Nope. Hell we complained non stop about Warrior Priest prayers being superbly underpar to DoKs Covenants, meh whatever... I watched Destruction roll like the black tide in nearly every iteration, T1, T2, T3, city siege, you name it.

That's partially why I picked Order I wanted a good fight, and I love the underdog (for the Horde anyone? Midgard ftw?). Anyhow, myself and hundreds of other beta testers used their forums and we used them daily, hourly. We tested and re-tested everything they threw out us. Through the CTDs like whoa, through the mem leaks, etc... we WANTED this game to work. Sadly it's just not.

I had a killing spree in Beta, it allowed me to level at a decent pace. When I started live and saw no killing spree, I thought ahhh shit here we go with the grind from hell. T3 hits you like a brick shithouse in the chest. Which leads me to a very troubling issue; Why on earth do I have to go to another f'ng realm to complete those quests in order to level? Shouldnt you be able to level from 1-40 in your own damn racial zone? That totally killed the replay factor for me. Did one alt and I was bored as hell.

This quarter will show the masses that left WAR, then the folks that want to stay can merge onto a dozen or so servers and duke it out. Those that want to move on can at least feel justified they gave it their college try.

[Morfiend]

I probably had in upwards of 50+ hours of "viewed" time on the beta boards for this. I got in with the BOOM! Studios comic book offer deal, kinda groovy. I was so excited to get into the beta, I logged in and I was like "this is it?" Much like some other reviews I was splitting my time with WoW that very weekend. Sure, I beta tested the hell outta that game and provided tons of feedback but did anything really change? Nope. Hell we complained non stop about Warrior Priest prayers being superbly underpar to DoKs Covenants, meh whatever... I watched Destruction roll like the black tide in nearly every iteration, T1, T2, T3, city siege, you name it.

That's partially why I picked Order I wanted a good fight, and I love the underdog (for the Horde anyone? Midgard ftw?). Anyhow, myself and hundreds of other beta testers used their forums and we used them daily, hourly. We tested and re-tested everything they threw out us. Through the CTDs like whoa, through the mem leaks, etc... we WANTED this game to work. Sadly it's just not.

I had a killing spree in Beta, it allowed me to level at a decent pace. When I started live and saw no killing spree, I thought ahhh shit here we go with the grind from hell. T3 hits you like a brick shithouse in the chest. Which leads me to a very troubling issue; Why on earth do I have to go to another f'ng realm to complete those quests in order to level? Shouldnt you be able to level from 1-40 in your own damn racial zone? That totally killed the replay factor for me. Did one alt and I was bored as hell.

This quarter will show the masses that left WAR, then the folks that want to stay can merge onto a dozen or so servers and duke it out. Those that want to move on can at least feel justified they gave it their college try.

Good post new guy.

[Ratman_tf]

It's not quite that simple. I don't think testing alone could have saved them, either - also note that time to level was increased before launch.

I think WAR just has a skewed design - Mythic need to focus on what the want WAR to be, and get it there. Quickly.

From the DAOC days, I got the impression that Mythic never has a really well thought out Step 2. They're willing to tinker with gameplay and rules and shit, but never (or rarely) seem to take a look at what the players are doing and have any real insight as to what's fundamentally going on.

TOA, perfect example.

Having Vision is cool and all, but a dev must be able to put aside their preconceptions and ask the Why? questions, and be able to kill their darlings if the Why? answers aren't matching up to what they want their game to be about.

[Sophismata]

When I started live and saw no killing spree, I thought ahhh shit here we go with the grind from hell.

I noticed that - early on, the game would spam 'your killing spree has ended' or similar messages. Did that have something to do with killing multiple mobs at once?

[khaine]

When I started live and saw no killing spree, I thought ahhh shit here we go with the grind from hell.

I noticed that - early on, the game would spam 'your killing spree has ended' or similar messages. Did that have something to do with killing multiple mobs at once?

It didnt even have to be at once , could have been just chaining one after the other

It faded fairly fast also but could build up the more you killed

They took it out because of course people were leveling WAY too fast

In Mythic's eyes of course.........

[Pringles]

The reason they took it out is still somewhat vague, but from what I understood there was an exploit with killing spree when you killed stuff via aoe in rapid succession that would give far more bonus xp than intended.

The rest of us just got screwed by people who were doing that.

[Bismallah]

Pringles, that would make sense.

I know I could get 20% but then it would reset... i was happy with that and it was actually a mini game to try and kill as fast as possible solo to get higher but I never could.

Here's to hoping they bring it back! Not that it would help much at this point, but still.

[gedgold]

If it was really a matter of bug, it's another effect of actual politics of Mythic: if it's not ok it gets removed. Like they did with classes and cities.

I'd like to get it back, because, at the moment, i think levelling time is too long.
I am playing not for pve but for pvp and rvr,  and i guess most of players do the same.

[Soln]

"Our numbers are going great" and "here, please have a free server transfer from all the low pop servers" don't really add up.

I would remind everyone that falsely claiming good numbers is a crime no matter when or how you mention it.

I think more accurately they need only post accurate metrics to their shareholders, auditors and SEC etc.  McDonald's claims "millions and millions served" MJ and co. are more or less doing the same.  It's marketing.

[Ratman_tf]

"Our numbers are going great" and "here, please have a free server transfer from all the low pop servers" don't really add up.

I would remind everyone that falsely claiming good numbers is a crime no matter when or how you mention it.

I think more accurately they need only post accurate metrics to their shareholders, auditors and SEC etc.  McDonald's claims "millions and millions served" MJ and co. are more or less doing the same.  It's marketing.

Well, once McDonald's hit a billion, I guess they didn't figure it was that important to keep score anymore. I remember when the signs changed.