CCP: Changing How Local Works (Now With More Scanner Spamming!)

[MahrinSkel]

One of the things I think they're trying to address is gate face-offs.  You've got 80 guys on one side of a gate, and you know the enemy has a couple cloakers watching you (because there's 2 hostiles in local that aren't on scans).  They've got 80 guys on their side of the gate, and they know you have cloakers watching them (local again).  All anyone can do is sit on each side of the gate. waiting for the someone to either make a move, make a mistake, get reinforcements, or get bored and either charge or retreat.

You know how many nights I wasted away watching a bunch of red boxes orbit a gate at optimals?  And how easy it was for a solo scout to follow a hostile gang?  The ease with which you could use local to get a rough estimate of the opposition, and track their general movements without really working at it, has shaped a lot of 0.0 tactics.  Hell, just not automatically knowing when Titan pilots are in system will change a lot.

0.0 warfare needs these kinds of shakeups every once it a while.  It helps turn over the dead wood, strong alliances aren't as willing to explore a new tactical handbook, which creates opportunities for the new fish to promote themselves to sharks.

--Dave

[Pezzle]

Removing local will NOT make people jump those gangs in.  It will lead to the same level of stalemates you have now, or more.  If fleets will not jump in knowing the numbers do you think they will without knowing?  Smart command acts with good intel.  Take away the only decent bit we get and we are talking a snail pace.

[Phildo]

I tend to agree with Pezzle on this one, Mahrin.  As an FC I don't want to jump my 80-man gang into a hostile system without knowing that the enemy force isn't 200 strong with a Titan.  Though I do agree that you're right about shaking up 0.0 warfare.

[Comstar]

If both sides are at the gate and both sides have people watching them, local does not count.

It will simultaneously kill 0.0 ratting and mining (because you can never know whats coming) and 0.0 gangs (because you can never know where someone is).

It will *kill* stone dead any community outside of existing groups as no one's going to say ANYTHING in local.

If CCP does it, game implodes in 5 weeks.

[Endie]

It's one reason why GF's latest offensive move (which I can't really talk about, for the few people here without spies on our boards) is particularly smart, and gets around a lot of these problems nicely through use of game machanics.  I wonder whether we had slight warning of this.  Goony devsploits tbqh.

[Pax]

At some point, some dev read one of Jade's walls of text...

[Pax]

At some point, some dev read one of Jade's walls of text and fully misinterpreted the concept of a good idea...

-Edit- Yay for quote and modify being right next to  eachother 

[Pezzle]

I read the linked thread from page one.  Nice theory, but it will not work out that way.  Local delay favors the fast moving gang.  They already have enough advantages.  The gankers will know if targets are in system and have a minute or two of hunt time before the target is aware of them unless the mark is hammering scanner.  4 guys run into a system, hit 4 belts, jump out, rinse/repeat.  If you get found out just cloak until the defenders lose interest, then it is back to the races.  This type of thing happens NOW, why make it worse?

CCP makes such a big deal about the graphics that no one in pvp cares about anyhow.  Now we are supposed to watch that ugly scanner tool?  This will slow down response times, slow down pursuit, slow down fleets engaging each other.  Imagine the joy of having to wait a minute or two per system to be sure the 4 guys about actually did leave. 

The EVE combat model does have many problems.  Problems with cloaks, blobs, cap ship online, sov, useless ships, lack of roles for some classes etc.  Local is not the problem here.  FC's will quickly learn not to move their gangs of any real size without scouts out everywhere making SURE that nothing is in system or that intel is correct.  Yeah, warfare needs a shakeup, this is not it, this will not help fleet war.

[Phildo]

And even if you spend all day spamming the scanner, by the time my slow-ass Domi sees a bunch of interceptors on scan, it's probably too late.  They're in the belt ten seconds before I can be in war and tackling my ass.

[Endie]

Zulupark said that they will be making changes to the scanner functionality as a tool to the potential gankee.

[Pezzle]

Scanner would have to be balls awesome to counter the benefit of a short term local cloak.  What change could they possibly make that will remove the need for clicking the button every 5 seconds?  The UI is messy enough as it is.

[Amarr HM]

Have it run automatically like a radar pulsing or a second long range overview.

[Endie]

Scanner would have to be balls awesome to counter the benefit of a short term local cloak.  What change could they possibly make that will remove the need for clicking the button every 5 seconds?  The UI is messy enough as it is.

Even that would not deal with a warps-when-cloaked recon.

[Phildo]

Also, wouldn't a constantly running scanner work horrors on system lag?

[eldaec]

Also, wouldn't a constantly running scanner work horrors on system lag?

Not if they created a new tab in the scanner that is nondirectional and removes the 14AU limit.

If they make the new tab see through cloaks as well, you'd basically get a list of ship types and names in system that isn't linked to pilots, the server would run the list in much the same way that it figures out local.

It would be a complete nightmare for NRDS regions ofc.

[Pezzle]

it is still ANOTHER dumb window cluttering up an already broken overview.  Remember looking at ships?  Neither do I.  If they really wanted to integrate it there would be symbols out in space on the overview, not on a scanner.  That of course brings up other problems.  The scanner as a concept is flawed.  Fixing the design flaws would require giving up the whole concept of 'directional'.  Of course it is fucking directional.  Having to narrow the search down for most things makes no sense.  This cannot be changed, we would know where the hostiles were (roughly) as well as towers and whatever else with little to no effort.  I would guess most of the people bitching about local would be bitching about the scanner a day after local was removed.

Micromanaging windows and tabs and brackets does not make EVE fun.  Why shouldn't this technology make our lives easier?  The scanner change is very meh, the star map zoom in/out is a bit of highly annoying useless fluff I want to shut off.  If I want to see the map I do not want my breath to be taken away as I realize the awesome size of the universe and my tiny place in it.  This is not a romance novel.  Just open the damn map.  Having to tic through lots of options to be functional is not my idea of entertainment.  Nor is having to fix it all every time I patch.  The windows on our overview stack or collapse on each other for no good reason at seeming random jumps, the entire UI is designed so we see less and less of space and the super space ships ccp are so proud of.

We could play this game in ascii symbols for all the ship graphics matter in combat.  We need more function.  Making things complex is not the same as functional.  More clutter is not functional.  The system needs to be stripped down and made lean.  So many features do not work properly.  EVE voice fails on me more than half the time.  Tower modules offline or bug out for no reason, corp management is a FUCKING NIGHTMARE as is outpost administration.  The bits and pieces we get do not seem designed to work with the rest of the system and it snowballs into more problems as the months drag on.

For all the trouble with local it is fair to both sides.  Everyone gets the same information.  That is about as stable as we can expect from EVE right now.  Given current game mechanics this is about the last thing you want to change.

[Jayce]

Pezzle for CSM.

It sounds like even if they did all this scanner stuff, it would net out to be the same as local is now.  And local has the advantage of currently working and needing no new code which will undoubtedly break in some ridiculous manner and never be fixed since there will then be some other fundamental game mechanic they need to go break.  Instead they could focus on one of the many gamebreaking issues they never seem to get back to.

[Thrawn]

Pezzle for CSM.

I'd back this.

[Phildo]

Interesting thought.  Is Hardin up for reelection?

[Pezzle]

Not that I know of.  I think RL attacked him keeping him away from EVE.  Before the first CSM he and I had a discussion about who would run.  Between my own life being busy and me not having the passport in order (figuring Hardin would run again) it will be the next CSM before I can consider running.  Of course if we have another candidate, and we might, it could be further delayed.  But thank you for the support ;)

[Phildo]

Heh, guess I'm voting for Darius then.

[TripleDES]

Jesus, I was planning to come back, at least on probation, for Ambulation. But by the time it's released, the core game will suck even more.

For that matter, if they really intend to fuck over local (decisions like that are mostly done deals), I hope that there's at least compensation in the scanner components and on covert ops frigates (no decloak under 2km and/or smooth transition between jump cloak to real cloak to avoid blipping on the overview).

--edit: Any maybe implementing some group jump functionality, so that you can jump a whole group in at once (one jump effect only) and the camping party won't know what'll hit them if they don't have proper scouts.

[Phildo]

TBH, based on other veiled things, I'm betting that the guy who suggested that CCP proposing sweeping nerfs months before they happen in order to make new features seam ever more awesome was right.  "So your Vaga was nerfed?  Just train up for the T3 supercruiser!  No more local?  Don't worry, now the scanner is better than ever and doesn't obfuscate everything behind it!"

[Nerf]

I'm wondering what kind of reqs t3 ships are going to have, HAC5 for the new supercruisers?
Maybe they'll just add in a 6th level to all the skills, cruiser 6 would only take what...5 months?

[Phred]

I'm wondering what kind of reqs t3 ships are going to have, HAC5 for the new supercruisers?
Maybe they'll just add in a 6th level to all the skills, cruiser 6 would only take what...5 months?

Which would explain why they killed ghost training.

[Goumindong]

Tech 3 ships better not be a fucking vertical skill train. Not that i am not in a sweet position to train them, but its just a retarded idea.

There are much better ways to do tech 3.

[Phildo]

I'm also wondering what CCP did to the server this morning that fucked it up so badly.  What did they ninja-tweak?

[Goumindong]

I don't know, but its terrible.

[ajax34i]

They're saying something about a problem with the load balancer, so my guess would be they tried something related to more need-for-speed and it fubared their servers.  It doesn't sound like they were tweaking in-game items.

[htedrom]

hey guys just to get back to t3 for a second...

I'm a new player (10m sp), and i can't help but think that t3 will widen a gap that many new players already feel to be near insurmountable... so maybe i'll just breeze through the well-trodden path here

1. i know sp doesn't mean win
2. i know "catching up" is a false goal
3. friends and tactics trump sp and ships

but taking all that for a given, i feel like around 10m sp i can start being more of a competitive solo pvp'r against older pilots.... so i've got support skills at IV and they've got them at V, the difference isn't insurmountable with a bit of luck and smarts

won't t3 just increase the delay before new players can do more than just tackle, and start being able to solo? i know this is a contentious issue...

[TripleDES]

Yes it does. And yes, CCP will bullshit you. Unless T3 does not create more levels of nested skills.

[Amarr HM]

2. i know "catching up" is a false goal

This isn't quite true I believe to be a myth, there's only so many skill points you can drop into each class so if you choose to specialize you will level the playing field quite quickly, as a one year old pilot I've soloed and defeated pilots with 2-3 times my SP because I can match their skills in that ship class.

[htedrom]

Yes it does. And yes, CCP will bullshit you. Unless T3 does not create more levels of nested skills.

nested skills ie hierarchical skills? like the current t2 ship skills? just curious, how could CCP make it so that t3 doesn't require nested skills? you mean like make t3 a substitute/compliment to t2 ships, rather than their trump card?

[Pezzle]

The whole concept is broken.  If the prerequisite is finding and exploiting wormholes in 0.0 they screwed it up already.  0.0 is messed up right now.  What is the barrier for entry?  How many hundreds or thousands of pilots do you need?  You need huge numbers or the good will of others with huge numbers.  The custom ships sounds like fun until you realize only a handful of those will be viable or considered 'good enough'.  Sure if you have the access time and income you might fuss about with oddities, but the numbers will be quickly crunched and best solutions found.  CCP cannot let ships become wildly overpowered with T3 (or they shouldn't).  Balance has to be maintained.  Players may be excited by T3 but I think they are going about the job of custom ships entirely wrong.  

[Goumindong]

Yes it does. And yes, CCP will bullshit you. Unless T3 does not create more levels of nested skills.

nested skills ie hierarchical skills? like the current t2 ship skills? just curious, how could CCP make it so that t3 doesn't require nested skills? you mean like make t3 a substitute/compliment to t2 ships, rather than their trump card?

Yes, he means vertical skill progression[t2 ships] rather than horizontal skill progression[other races ships]. Then there is the stuff right in between, which is stuff like thermo dynamics[its not strictly vertical in that anyone can train it, but its another thing that every pilot needs to be competitive, so its still on the "vertical" path]

RE:

Pezzle, I agree, its possible to balance it, but who knows.

P.S. what do you think of continually competitive production?