Watchmen

[Yegolev]

[ghost]

Its a bit odd that people will watch completely fictional screenplays and that is fine, yet have one that involves Reagan era cold war background and everything falls to shit.  It's called willing suspension of disbelief, folks. 

[Riggswolfe]

Its a bit odd that people will watch completely fictional screenplays and that is fine, yet have one that involves Reagan era cold war background and everything falls to shit.  It's called willing suspension of disbelief, folks. 

As a child of the '80s I don't really get what these folks are on about. For some reason, seeing Richard Nixon as president clued me in that, besides superheroes, what I was seeing on screen wasn't my '80s. I'm not sure how this is a big issue for people.

[Samwise]

After all, if Nixon is President in 1985 he can just as feasibly be President in 2008.

Aside from being 14 years in the grave, you mean?

Although a movie that had Zombie President Nixon in it couldn't not be a hit.

[Venkman]

Its a bit odd that people will watch completely fictional screenplays and that is fine, yet have one that involves Reagan era cold war background and everything falls to shit.  It's called willing suspension of disbelief, folks. 

There's a difference. If the source wasn't written then, made sense then, and then was literally translated 20 years later to be almost exactly that comic book animated on screen, the movie would have been rated on the merit of the story alone. That could have been compelling.

[Teleku]

Was this even a major criticism of the movie?  I've only heard it from the few people on this board, nowhere else.  I've not heard a single person bitching about the movie being in the 80's.  Even all the people I know who didn't like it didn't care about that.  I still cannot even fathom this argument.

I still maintain that Watchmen wouldn't be nearly as interesting and fun to read/watch if it was set in post 9/11 America instead of Nixon hover-bike 80's dystopia.

[tazelbain]

The game, you lost it.

[WindupAtheist]

I totally think they should have updated it for our times.

[Venkman]

Was this even a major criticism of the movie?  I've only heard it from the few people on this board, nowhere else.  I've not heard a single person bitching about the movie being in the 80's.  Even all the people I know who didn't like it didn't care about that.  I still cannot even fathom this argument.

I still maintain that Watchmen wouldn't be nearly as interesting and fun to read/watch if it was set in post 9/11 America instead of Nixon hover-bike 80's dystopia.

Nah, I'm over intellectualizing it. Somehow came up so I ran with it

My opinion is that this movie would have been much more interesting in the 80s. They waited too long. Don't get me wrong though, I enjoyed it. My real gripes are with how it handled the source material rather than it being in the 80s. I don't think the comic book would resonate today any more than a movie about the subject but not based on a classic would be.

[ghost]

There are so many movies coming out now that never would have been possible in the 80s.  CGI has made many things possible that just weren't before.  That is what makes Star Wars so ridiculous-  Lucas never seems to get the real credit he deserves for the special effects in those movies.

[Venkman]

I sorta disagree. For two reasons:

1) All of these movies have come out before in some form, they just didn't have the eye candy like they do now. The only one I can think of that so seamlessly blended sfx with a story that required it was Matrix, which really was an old story told against a backdrop that required the type of CGI they developed for that Gap commercial.

2) Special effects done right have always been about telling a story. When the sfx are the story, you end up with Lawnmower Man.

Strip away the sfx from the upcoming movies. What story absolutely requires tech that, say, Speilberg couldn't have used in the 80s?

[NowhereMan]

Yeah, I don't think it would have looked as good but had this been done in the 80's it could still have worked. Dr. Manhattan would have looked a bit weird but they could have done the rest of it and frankly I think they'd probably have toned the fight scenes down somewhat which would have improved things. My problem with your comment is really that the main, the obvious story about superhero evil plot to save the world, that would have worked better in the 80's but the main point of the film isn't the plot itself but how these characters, heroes, react to it. It was a comic book story meant to be questioning what makes one a hero that had a huge impact and in the industry is still being felt somewhat today. It triggered off the more 'realistic' 80's stories and a lot of the grimdark anti-hero 90's stuff which the industry has really only dialed back down from over the last few years and means it's still perfectly acceptable to write stories where the heroes themselves are brought into question. In that sense I don't think it would have fared any better in the 80's simply because, as a film, it would have been far too niche. Most people weren't used to superheroes and comics, they were for kids and that was it. If this had come out in the 80's people would have been expecting Superman and would probably have been hugely turned off by how it plays out, I'd say most critics that didn't know much about comics would have felt the same way. It's not that people were too dumb to comprehend it's amazingness so much as I really don't think people back then outside comics really would have coped well with an adult superhero film, hell I don't know if a film with this sort of ending would have played that well without the superhero trappings.

[ghost]

Okay, sure it would have been possible to make a movie with shitty special effects.  They could have made LOTR back in the 80s and gotten the guys from the Dark Crystal or Tron to do the special effects.  That would have been spectacular.

[Samwise]

 

Which is to say, I agree with ghost.

[NowhereMan]

Which is to say, I agree with ghost.

Aside from Dr. Manhattan moments I don't think any of it would have been too much of a stretch for conventional films of the time. Those bits I'm not so sure about, they run into the problem that Dr. Manhattan isn't odd enough to work as a some sort of puppet but I'd guess that with a decent budget they could have done something low-key to make it clear he isn't a normal human. Beyond that nothing in it seemed so out there that it couldn't have been done. Sure it'd probably be looking dated by today's standards but things like Blade Runner and the Thing were very early 80s and by and large required more intense special effects than Watchmen really needed.

[Samwise]

Yeah, I don't think special effects would be the problem with doing Watchmen in the 80s (but I think your assessment of potential audience reception is dead on).  The blanket statement that every modern movie would have worked just as well without modern technology is ludicrous, though.  It's like saying Wizard of Oz could have been made during the silent film era.  Sure it could have, and it might even have still been good, but it would be a completely different movie.

I haven't even seen Avatar, but I suspect that it would not be the same movie if all the aliens were played by guys in blue rubber suits.

[Reg]

I thought all the "everything popular is crap" stuff was confined to the Avatar thread. Apparently not. 

[Abagadro]

Is there now an internet law that any discussion inevitably ends up in a discussion of LOTR?

[Trippy]

Is there now an internet law that any discussion inevitably ends up in a discussion of LOTR?

Apparently.

[Ratman_tf]

Is there now an internet law that any discussion inevitably ends up in a discussion of LOTR?

Apparently.

My Precious! 

So how about that sex scene on the owlship?

[Sky]

There are so many movies coming out now that never would have been possible in the 80s.  CGI has made many things possible that just weren't before.  That is what makes Star Wars so ridiculous-  Lucas never seems to get the real credit he deserves for the special effects in those movies.

What? He gets a ton of credit for ILM. And then he went on with better technology and made some movies with amazing effects but forgot to hire actors.

I'll take creaky old midget-in-a-can R2 over flying supereffects R2 any fucking day.

[Murgos]

My opinion is that this movie would have been much more interesting in the 80s. They waited too long.

If this movie had come out 2 years after Blade Runner and fit into the same sort of Noir mold and sensibility it would have been completely ignored by the main-stream but would be one of those movies, like Blade Runner, that still holds up 25 years later as a major moment in film.

Today?  Not so much.  I liked it a lot but that's just me.

[Venkman]

I completely agree with that.

I haven't even seen Avatar, but I suspect that it would not be the same movie if all the aliens were played by guys in blue rubber suits.

That's where it falls down for me. Without the spectacle, it's a pretty boring story. Kids would probably have still gone for it. But it wouldn't have been this big as movie event without the CGI.

Which makes me wonder about something else: would this have been a theater-filler in the summer? Like, I wonder how much of its ability to fill seats was based on it not having any real competition for this type of movie. It's not like kids go see the raft of Oscar movies that come out during the holidays. And the summer movie lineup is usually tight enough they need to push faster movie turnover during July and August for the next big one, whereas in the middle of the winter you can sorta take your time when there's not a lot of alternative for this type of audience.

[UnSub]

After all, if Nixon is President in 1985 he can just as feasibly be President in 2008.

Aside from being 14 years in the grave, you mean?

Although a movie that had Zombie President Nixon in it couldn't not be a hit.

If you are going to run with alternate histories, you can run with alternate histories. 

[Yegolev]

My opinion is that this movie would have been much more interesting in the 80s. They waited too long.

If they made this in 1988, it would have looked like Puma Man.

You caused me to think of a new meme: temporal uncanny valley.  It is a historical movie but the period is only very slightly different from ours and therefore unnatural.  Flying batmobile, night-vision goggles... and the computer was a 286 running dosshell.  Move it a bit further back so that the cars looked like the ones that ran on leaded gas and you'd be out of the valley.  Or move your age in either direction.

[UnSub]

Temporal uncanny valley is a great description for (imo) why a lot of steampunk properties just don't mesh.

[Vision]

http://www.slashfilm.com/2010/02/03/watchmen-2-looks-like-a-real-possibility/

-sequel on its way

[Kail]

More importantly, though, it seems that Dan DiDio, SVP-Executive Editor of DC, has made it his mission to realize not only a sequel series but also several prequels. Why? I suppose he’d say Why Not?

WHAT IN THE NAME OF BALLS IS FUCKING WRONG WITH YOU

[HaemishM]

God... damnit. 

[Johny Cee]

There are so many movies coming out now that never would have been possible in the 80s.  CGI has made many things possible that just weren't before.  That is what makes Star Wars so ridiculous-  Lucas never seems to get the real credit he deserves for the special effects in those movies.

What? He gets a ton of credit for ILM. And then he went on with better technology and made some movies with amazing effects but forgot to hire actors.

I'll take creaky old midget-in-a-can R2 over flying supereffects R2 any fucking day.

There's really something to be said for physical effects looking and working better in film than modern CGI.  CGI will look fine, but sooo many times the animators make it less believable by fucking up the little things like speed and realistic movement.  

Compare something like Jaws (realistic movement speeds, have to hint at things which is far more terrifying, actors actually have an object to interact with) to Deep Blue Sea (unrealistically fast and maneuverable sharks).  Or The Thing, where the physical effects are still disturbing.

Or Aliens.  That was all guys in rubber suits and camera tricks.

[Margalis]

Not to mention lighting/material problems. Most CGI surfaces still look pretty bad as far as capturing the look of real materials and getting the lighting on CGI objects to match up to real-life props is something almost nobody gets right.

[pxib]

Compare something like Jaws (realistic movement speeds, have to hint at things which is far more terrifying, actors actually have an object to interact with) to Deep Blue Sea (unrealistically fast and maneuverable sharks).  Or The Thing, where the physical effects are still disturbing.

Or Aliens.  That was all guys in rubber suits and camera tricks.

I get the same "They actually did that!" feeling I get watching stunts in Hong Kong action films, or watching the war scenes in Patton, or this whole sequence in The General. Now that we can so effortlessly fake everything, it's lost a bit of the magic. Impressive physical effects never cease to amaze me... CG only impresses when I catch myself forgetting it's CG.

[Tannhauser]

As a huge Watchmen fan I say no fucking WAY to a sequel.  Watchmen Babies can only be around the corner.  Just.  Leave.  It.  Alone.

[Ratman_tf]

actors actually have an object to interact with

This one doesn't bother me. Actors have been pretending to interact with things that aren't really there since Ray Harryhausen started playing with his stop motion camera.

Mostly, I just dislike CGI because it can become a shortcut to bypass creativity.

[Sir T]

Lets speculate about the plot.

Doc Manhatten is drawn back to earth by his infinite love for whatshername and they have a moody teenage son that sparkles in the sunlight. He longs for a girl in his class but he cant dare kiss her because of his dark secret. In the meantime Rorschach's atoms infects everyone and turns into thousands of Rorschach clones and Night owl is forced to fight him to allow the guardian of reality to reset everything and save humanity from the war with the robots that Ozy invented.