SWTOR

[Sjofn]

That is thinking and reacting and unless you make it so slow to matter that the "just burn it down before it matters" strategy is the one to go with, people will suck at it, especially if they don't know WHICH thing they're going to have to react to until the fight starts.

Just because a mechanic allows you to take your time and think doesn't mean you can ignore it.   You're assuming reflexive difficulty which I'm actually saying should be toned down big time.   They'd actually suck a lot less in such a system.
[/quote]

There are things where you don't have to immediately react, but still have to react in a reasonable time that people still suck at. If you change up what those things are every time you do the encounter, that makes it harder. Period. And if you want said mechanic to matter rather than just get ignored and powered through, rather than reacted to as you hope, it's going to make the encounter hard enough where people go "fuck it, we're just being screwed by randomness today" and they won't bother at all.

But maybe you mean something magical by "non-reflexive but meaningful." Maybe an example of what you mean would clear things up. Because I have played with nothin' but casual raiders in my raiding time, and what you've described would be terrible.

[cironian]

As long as the only way of defeating a mob is to reduce their HP to zero, you will have the Trinity.

They should add action and mind bars.

[Lucas]

So, now that the beta weekend is over (yeah well, timezone differences considered), can you guys spill the beans, or we all must pretend there is still an NDA going on?  (yes, rethorical question :P)

Serious question: at this point, with all the leaks and whatever, why they still have an NDA? Game sucks so much? I really can't see a reason.

[Evildrider]

So, now that the beta weekend is over (yeah well, timezone differences considered), can you guys spill the beans, or we all must pretend there is still an NDA going on?  (yes, rethorical question :P)

Serious question: at this point, with all the leaks and whatever, why they still have an NDA? Game sucks so much? I really can't see a reason.

 

[Cyrrex]

To be honest, I think it's wrong to assume that everyone knows all of the leaked information coming out.  For starters, it's probably only a tiny percentage of players that follow it that closely to begin with, and then only a certain percentage of them that are even interested in the leaks.  I know I'm not interested, and I'm a raving fanboy.

On the other hand, the lack of interested people probably also enforces to reasoning that the NDA is useless.

But at the end of the day, the company wants to control the release of information on their product, and I can hardly fault them for that in principle, even if the execution is flawed or misplaced.

[Merusk]

Amaron, it's like you don't recognize that a significant portion of WoW's playerbase - raider and non-raider - STILL has problems just getting "Stay out of the damn fire" right. However you still seem to think it'd just be keen to keep that and crank it up a bit while removing the only thing keeping their stupid ass alive.. the tank and healer.   

[eldaec]

The amount of useful information protected by nda that can't be picked up from official shit is trivially small.

Beta players mostly like the game is about all. And actually devs have admitted that too.

Omg what have I said.

[Mosesandstick]

You think it's trivial? Most MMORPGs have people playing for hundreds of hours; I don't see how a few selected snippets and devs talking about their own game can accurately convey what that feels like.

[Amaron]

Amaron, it's like you don't recognize that a significant portion of WoW's playerbase - raider and non-raider - STILL has problems just getting "Stay out of the damn fire" right.

I'm not sure how my wording created this impression.   It's exactly the opposite.   I think getting out of the fire is so hard to learn that most of them give up on even trying.  The fact that WoW's system makes your guildies treat you like a leper for failing doesn't help either.  Thus we should throw that mechanic out and put in something that's much more suited to normal people.   I wouldn't argue for turn based raiding but it needs to move more in that direction.

However you still seem to think it'd just be keen to keep that and crank it up a bit while removing the only thing keeping their stupid ass alive.. the tank and healer.   

I haven't really been arguing against the trinity at all. You're getting my argument crossed with Surly's.   I just don't like crap where you're watching video's ahead of time and you can't bring 3 tanks with 1 healer because that isn't optimal blah blah blah.

[Malakili]

I'm not sure how my wording created this impression.   It's exactly the opposite.   I think getting out of the fire is so hard to learn that most of them give up on even trying.  The fact that WoW's system makes your guildies treat you like a leper for failing doesn't help either.  Thus we should throw that mechanic out and put in something that's much more suited to normal people.   I wouldn't argue for turn based raiding but it needs to move more in that direction.

There isn't much that is more simple than "don't stand in the god damned motherfucking fire." The problem is that people can't get out of the fire AND think about rotation, or looking at the health of someone else, or whatever.  I guess you could have cooldowns explicitly stated on the screen somewhere "HEY FIRE COMING IN 10,9,8...."  but I think people would still miss it.  Its not a matter of reflexes, or hand speed, or something, I think it is a problem of multi tasking.  I think the people that can get of the fire have made it reflexive, they don't think about it any more.  My raid leader used to talk about "freeing mental bandwidth" (his term, dunno, but you get the point), the less balls you have to juggle, the better you'll be at the rest of them, and building muscle memory to move out of fire frees up a lot of bandwidth.  My brain learned to chunk that kind of information (look, there is fire on me, there is fire over there too, that means the safe spot is in space 3, now move there) into a single action, where as I think most people have to do those parenthetical actions 1 at a time, creating a huge bottleneck of information that can lead to the person just not doing any of the actions right.  So if you want to get more casual encounters, you've got to cut down on multitasking.

Somewhat ironically, if you all remember Flame Wreath in Shade of Aran, I know my guild had a lot of problems with that at first because were SO trained from Molten Core to run out of the fire that it took a lot of mental and physical discipline to stand still.  Hell, I did Molten Core with a friend (during Cata) just for old times sakes and we both, 5 years later, instinctively ran out of fire every time even though the damage was basically trivial.  My point being that by learning to compress a lot of actions into a single action through repetition, you are capable of doing a lot more "actions."  (Look at a Starcraft pro for super high end examples.)

[Paelos]

Or, they could just stop using "don't stand in the fire" as the crutch to make every encounter "hard"

[Draegan]

I think the reward for being the first guild on the server to defeat the toughest raid should be having all their characters deleted. Same with "first to 50".

So much hate!

Also on a previous statement about random in encounters.  No.  Just no.

No one wants to be in a fight just to die and start all over again because of something stupid random.  It sounds fantastic in theory, but in actual gameplay, it just doesn't work.

[Malakili]

Or, they could just stop using "don't stand in the fire" as the crutch to make every encounter "hard"

My point is, don't stand in the fire isn't the problem, multitasking is the problem.  Ask players to do a lot at once an they are going to do none of them well unless they've learned to do at least some of them reflexively/without thinking.

[Zane0]

Raids in general need a far lower skill requirement and a much higher pop cap (make these scaleable if you like) - mmos have gotten far away from the EQ/AO/DAOC model of huge-ass encounters but with a little finess these could be flexible and properly 'massive' experiences that fully leverage the social dynamic of the medium (having trouble? get more dudes; any idiot will suffice) - this would be far better than the ridiculous gameyness of WoW or the rinky-dink 8 man sillyness we're getting into. Maybe this is a non-sequitor but why am I paying $15 for the equivalent of a persistent experience I could host on my PC?

[Sky]

So much hate!

I strike you down with all of my hatred, so my journey to the dark side may be complete.

 

[Draegan]

So much hate!

I strike you down with all of my hatred, so my journey to the dark side may be complete.

 

lulz

You just hate when people play video games different than you.  That and you play forums too much.

[DLRiley]

Couldn't you just make everyone responsible for healing themself?  Healing and dps would become a sliding scale and aggro management would then generate a carefully choreographed dance of people in the party balancing their health and damage.  Of course, you have to retune bosses/encounters the moment you abandon the tank/healer/dps focus.  

I think I heard Guild Wars 2 calling.

Guild Wars 2 still has the trinity.  It's just in this case it requires each character to fill multiple roles, which will be great for some people and probably less so for the Elementalist who wants to DPS when the rest of his group wants him to drop down some healing rain.

No not really for several reasons, encounters won't be closed boxes but out in the open for any pubby to try to kill. Second well read the skills. The problem I see with GW2 is that it makes everyone responsible for there own survival, something foreign to every mmo pve'er I know who ever considers an encounter anything more than a non solo experience. This will make the game extremely difficult by default with anet putting on the training wheels up to level 80 and hoping you "get it". For example i feel really sorry for the people who can't run out of the way of fire.

[Paelos]

Or, they could just stop using "don't stand in the fire" as the crutch to make every encounter "hard"

My point is, don't stand in the fire isn't the problem, multitasking is the problem.  Ask players to do a lot at once an they are going to do none of them well unless they've learned to do at least some of them reflexively/without thinking.

Yes. Do one thing and do it well in every fight. If you want to make it a "don't stand in the fire" fight, that's fine. As long as that's top objective and there aren't a million other things going on we will be fine. It's when they put it in everything regardless of the rest of the mechanics that things go sideways.

[eldaec]

You guys are strange.

React to and consider more shit sounds like a much better hard mode than 'grind more for 3% better gear'.

Obviously you need an easier mode for dumbasses and old people.

[luckton]

Obviously you need an easier mode for dumbasses and old people.

And the Donalds...don't forget the Donalds 

[Kirth]

There isn't much that is more simple than "don't stand in the god damned motherfucking fire." The problem is that people can't get out of the fire AND think about rotation, or looking at the health of someone else, or whatever. 

the unfortunate thing is the whatever is usually watching tv, texting the so, eating, surfing net on other screen. for some its not that the cannot get out of the fire its that the make a conscious effort to not focus enough to be able to and hope the bad thing doesn't target them. slowing down reaction timers just makes the lazy lazier and the focused bored. Now on the subject of stupid as fuck raid mechanics that can insta kill/wipe a whole attempt I'm so fucking done with that, I'm not wasting my time and effort with stuff only to have it all go to shit because little johnny raider can't stop facebook messaging long enough to not cause wipes. (see heroic lich king and defile). so yes if you are going to have larger raids success should not be dependent upon the right people getting targeted by the bad stuff.

[Nebu]

Obviously you need an easier mode for dumbasses and old people.

I take offense to this... you decide which part (or both?!?).

P.S. GET OFF MY LAWN!

[eldaec]

If your game is so dull that players have to watch TV and surf porn to stop themselves being bored, then the appropriate response is not making the game easier.

[Nebu]

If your game is so dull that players have to watch TV and surf porn to stop themselves being bored, then the appropriate response is not making the game easier.

The people I game with are always watching something else in the background... but only when we PvE.  When we PvP, I get their full attention.  Perhaps this is why I prefer pvp to pve in most cases.  I just don't like mixing the two, like trying to level on a pvp server. 

[tmp]

If your game is so dull that players have to watch TV and surf porn to stop themselves being bored, then the appropriate response is not making the game easier.

Endless repetition tends to do that, no matter how exciting the content. Surf enough porn and you'll start surfing porn while you surf porn, too.

[luckton]

If your game is so dull that players have to watch TV and surf porn to stop themselves being bored, then the appropriate response is not making the game easier.

Endless repetition tends to do that, no matter how exciting the content. Surf enough porn and you'll start surfing porn while you surf porn, too.

[sam, an eggplant]

Guild Wars 2 still has the trinity.  It's just in this case it requires each character to fill multiple roles, which will be great for some people and probably less so for the Elementalist who wants to DPS when the rest of his group wants him to drop down some healing rain.

My understanding is that there's no equivalent of a tank in GW2. Everybody can deal damage and everybody has a heal button. Threat is a combination of damage done, relative health, and proximity. There's no taunt ability, therefore the whole concept of a diku tank falls apart.

[Paelos]

If your game is so dull that players have to watch TV and surf porn to stop themselves being bored, then the appropriate response is not making the game easier.

There's a large difference between making something simpler and making it easier. You can make a fight difficult based on 2-3 specific attacks instead of having the boss abilities list read like a chinese menu. It's not either/or like you portray it to be.

Here's an example: The original Vael fight had a fire nova, a the max damage debuff, and a fire breath with a cleave. The fight was extremely difficult based on the tanking switches due to the debuff, the cleave/fire, and the dps exploding after the debuff. Overall, though it wasn't difficult because of a billion things.

Compare to the second boss of Firelands: He has 9 abilities. He has two phases. He creates volcanos that explode. He creates lava streams that chase players. He has an AE blast. He summons adds that increase in damage the longer they are left alive. He immolates players for 8000 per second in phase 2, and he shoots a beam at them. WTF?!?!

[Tyrnan]

Compare to the second boss of Firelands: He has 9 abilities. He has two phases. He creates volcanos that explode. He creates lava streams that chase players. He has an AE blast. He summons adds that increase in damage the longer they are left alive. He immolates players for 8000 per second in phase 2, and he shoots a beam at them. WTF?!?!

Did they happen to hire some SOE raid designers recently? That sounds like the kind of shit they had us doing in EQ2 for years. It was especially nice when someone did something or failed to do something that caused a wipe and it got announced in huge red letters in the middle of the screen so everyone knew who to rage at 

[01101010]

Compare to the second boss of Firelands: He has 9 abilities. He has two phases. He creates volcanos that explode. He creates lava streams that chase players. He has an AE blast. He summons adds that increase in damage the longer they are left alive. He immolates players for 8000 per second in phase 2, and he shoots a beam at them. WTF?!?!

 

Seriously... there is no need for that.

[luckton]

Hardcore internet line dancing is hardcore 

[kildorn]

Or, they could just stop using "don't stand in the fire" as the crutch to make every encounter "hard"

My point is, don't stand in the fire isn't the problem, multitasking is the problem.  Ask players to do a lot at once an they are going to do none of them well unless they've learned to do at least some of them reflexively/without thinking.

Yes. Do one thing and do it well in every fight. If you want to make it a "don't stand in the fire" fight, that's fine. As long as that's top objective and there aren't a million other things going on we will be fine. It's when they put it in everything regardless of the rest of the mechanics that things go sideways.

I both love and hate the "don't stand in this. DO stand in that. Look for this effect and run to it. Look for that effect and run from it. Do all this while SHIT IS FALLING ALL OVER THE PLACE AND EFFECTS ARE BLINDING YOU. Oh, and keep up your fucking rotation." Hodir drove me batty for the longest time until I learned to tune out like 80% of the shit happening and spell effects.

One the one hand, never a dull moment. On the other hand, the key to enjoyment I find is periods of high intensity followed by a cool off period. Raiding is a stressful pain when you're just doing high intensity for four hours trying to beat something, and never have the decompress. Especially when you consider that a lot of us play games as the decompress for our normal life stress.

[01101010]

I both love and hate the "don't stand in this. DO stand in that. Look for this effect and run to it. Look for that effect and run from it. Do all this while SHIT IS FALLING ALL OVER THE PLACE AND EFFECTS ARE BLINDING YOU. Oh, and keep up your fucking rotation." Hodir drove me batty for the longest time until I learned to tune out like 80% of the shit happening and spell effects.

One the one hand, never a dull moment. On the other hand, the key to enjoyment I find is periods of high intensity followed by a cool off period. Raiding is a stressful pain when you're just doing high intensity for four hours trying to beat something, and never have the decompress. Especially when you consider that a lot of us play games as the decompress for our normal life stress.

I'd rather juggle flaming circular saw blades. Much less to contend with.

[eldaec]

Fighting the urge to link progress quest.

Also, are you those people who hate multiplayer games in which you have to choose between more than 3 abilities?

If you remove cat herding from a cat herding simulator MMOG I don't really understand what is left?

[Sky]

You just hate when people play video games different than you.  That and you play forums too much.

I was just having fun with that haet post. But I would like a story mmo that didn't focus on raiding. Let the big guilds play Rift or GW2 or whatever. Rift was a kick in the nuts at the endgame, imo we've had enough of those for now. Don't see it happening with a mainstream mmo, though.

Apologies for my gushing fanboyism about TOR.  

Hardcore internet line dancing is hardcore  

It's square dancing, moe.