SWTOR

[tazelbain]

Not at all an exaggeration at all.  Which is why the overpower of CC in WAR was surprising. They hadn't learned a goddamn thing from DAoC.

[Paelos]

I thought getting mezzed in DAOC was a playstyle?

Maybe I was doing it wrong.

[Fordel]

DaoC had minute+ long AE mez's that had no target cap. If you were fighting opponents without an 'out', like say a low RR (realm rank) Alb zerg, as long as you got your Mez off first, you could defeat 10:1 odds. If you got stuck in the Mez and didn't have outs from RR abilities, you got to sit there and watch your team get dismantled one by one by a train or possible all exploded at once by overlapping PBAE.

Example : http://youtu.be/k30BBCCmQQY


Mechanically on the class level, DaoC was a pile of horse shit through and through. It seems anything Mythic got right, they did so by accident if WAR is any indication.

It was a God Damned mess, and the only thing in say WoW that came close to how fucking broken DaoC classes could be, would be the WotLK release DK.


It was still fun in spite of all the horse shit Mythic was shoveling in your direction, at least until population issues became insurmountable and they decided to turn the game into a PVE centric grind that decided your PvP power level.

[Malakili]

So whats worse for a PvP game, an unbeatable zerg, or an OP ability that allows a small group of organized players to beat it?

[Rasix]

I'd rather not be forced to choose between a douche and a turd.  I'm not voting.  Please don't kill me, Diddy.

[Fordel]

So whats worse for a PvP game, an unbeatable zerg, or an OP ability that allows a small group of organized players to beat it?

Considering the OP ability lets you beat other small groups of organized players the same way 


The only problem with zerging goes back to the population imbalances on a realm vs realm basis. Zerging itself was fun and inclusive, organized zerging was even better. It's only a problem when its my 100 man zerg vs your 20 man one, because 20 is the exact number of 50s you have on your realm tonight in total.

[Malakili]

So whats worse for a PvP game, an unbeatable zerg, or an OP ability that allows a small group of organized players to beat it?

Considering the OP ability lets you beat other small groups of organized players the same way 


The only problem with zerging goes back to the population imbalances on a realm vs realm basis. Zerging itself was fun and inclusive, organized zerging was even better. It's only a problem when its my 100 man zerg vs your 20 man one, because 20 is the exact number of 50s you have on your realm tonight in total.

Well if you both have OP AOE CC abilities in the small group organized PvP (I honestly don't remember in the case of DAoC if each faction had a similar ability), than it is still balanced, its just potentially not very fun. I think the distinction is worth making.

As for the 100 v. 20 sitution, thats kind of my point.  Its a solution to population imbalance. 

As Rasix implies, this is basically one of the reasons open PvP in RPGs has been largely a failure, screwed if you do, scrwed if you don't. 

[Fordel]

How is it a solution to pop imbalance when the 100 can just as easily dump it on the 20?

That also ignores the fact DaoC was a territorial conquering conquest game and all the issues being super underpopulated brings with that.


-edit- Territorial conquering? what the shit 

[Sobelius]

OK -- a stupid point, but that video link reminded me of one thing I *did* like about DAOC PvP ... the guild cloaks. Kinda fun to be able to create a design for your team and wear "the colors". Would be even better these days with wardrobe systems.

Made sense in a pseudo-medieval genre with castle sieges.

I wonder if SWTOR will allow for variations on storm trooper white-shiny-uniform or jedi brown-paper-bag hooded cloak?

[Ingmar]

When DAoC was in its hayday and still moving up I think I was playing on UO Siege Perilous server and remember hearing all these people complaining about AOE CC spells dominating DAoC. I wasn't very tempted to try it. Was this exaggerated or not?

At various times this was definitely true, it wasn't always the biggest problem with the game but there were certainly balance 'cycles' where CC was awful. They eventually added some RAs to mitigate it somewhat but even then it could still be pretty bad, especially for hybrids and casters.

[Sky]

Siege Perilous! So much fun.

[Fordel]

Guild Cloaks and Shields were awesome, as was the color dye system so you could all roll around in a 'uniform'. Really gave you some recognition of enemy guilds too. "Oh it's those <Hand of Tyr> jokers, easy win!  "


Deathspam is sorely missed too.

[trias_e]

Thing about DAOC is it was just as badly balanced after they nerfed CC.  It just became a game of melee-trains.  I actually liked it better in it's OP CC days.

[Mattemeo]

Much of the time spent trundling around the RvR zones was actually avoiding enemies while people waited for their Mez-break RA to cool down. I quite liked it, it was very cat and mouse, groups circling each other trying to work out the best moment to close in. If you played a mezzer (like me) it essentially became a contest to out-draw the other. Even with a the Mez-break RA up I remember many occasions where AoE CC was swapped several times before anyone actually died.

One of the big population balance problems started up when DAoC broke in the Asian market - suddenly there was a large influx of Korean players who were on a different time zone to everyone else - they'd ransack the relics over night, unopposed. Something it took Mids or Hibs on a badly balanced server a long time to organise and accomplish was rewritten hours later.

[Fordel]

Melee trains at least let you control your character to a degree. You could also kill the main assist for good times 

[Malakili]

How is it a solution to pop imbalance when the 100 can just as easily dump it on the 20?

That also ignores the fact DaoC was a territorial conquering conquest game and all the issues being super underpopulated brings with that.


-edit- Territorial conquering? what the shit 

Well, my premise was the small group was better able to coordinate, basically giving them a slightly advantage because its less logistically difficult.  If its 100 randoms v. 20 randoms, and no one is talking to anyone, yea, it doesn't solve the problem.

[Arinon]

The way movement speed buffs worked in that game really kept units together too.  (Very easy to snap CC a whole group if you catch them with their pants down.)  I kinda miss playing a dedicated movement speed class.

[Fordel]

How is it a solution to pop imbalance when the 100 can just as easily dump it on the 20?

That also ignores the fact DaoC was a territorial conquering conquest game and all the issues being super underpopulated brings with that.


-edit- Territorial conquering? what the shit 

Well, my premise was the small group was better able to coordinate, basically giving them a slightly advantage because its less logistically difficult.  If its 100 randoms v. 20 randoms, and no one is talking to anyone, yea, it doesn't solve the problem.

AOE CC was not about group coordination, it was about who had the more alert CC'er. Even the most badass 8v8 squad would eat a CC.

[Lantyssa]

And in a 100 vs 20 situation, the 100 zerg has a five times higher chance of hitting the CC button first.

[Ingmar]

And in a 100 vs 20 situation, the 100 zerg has a five times higher chance of hitting the CC button first.

You'd think that, but the 100 people is probably 32 /stuck buffbots, 15 scouts, 24 infiltrators, some armsmen, and a lost paladin.

[Sjofn]

PvP in DAOC didn't do it for me for the same reason it failed in WAR -- I hit DAOC level cap, where everyone said the real PvP game started, and suddenly faced a whole new grind and level of uselessness. Any of you try being a L50 R1 Armsman before ToA? And even after ToA things, as we all know, got even more horribly worse precisely because of the impact of PvE gear.

ToA is nigh-universally pointed to as where the RvR got shitty. Prior to that, it wasn't really very grindy. You got your crafted suit (skalds did, anyway, as our epic suit was sort of ass) (although I totally used my epic suit because I am a lazy person who doesn't care, and it was fine), then went about doing whatever it was you liked to do. Obviously getting a higher realm rank was exciting because of the realm abilities, but the gap was never as have/have not-ish as, say, WoW. I was never one of those 8v8 srs business grrrrrr useless people, so perhaps that's why I was fine in my silly epic suit, with my relatively shitty Realm Rank. I defended my realm (the frontier of choice on my server when people wanted to open Darkness Falls was generally Midgard, because we had about 12 people on at all times) and occassionally took Albion keeps. VERY rarely we'd get our shit together and do a relic raid, although we were pretty much incapable of defending them, so we kinda gave up on that part of the game.

My main point was as many issues as DAoC had with its RvR (and I am keenly aware of shit like the population unbalance hell you could get into as the smallest realm), it was still better than anything else I've played, and I find that fucking amazing, because you would THINK someone would've taken the good parts (LIKE STAT CAPS FOR GOD'S SAKE) and then improved on the shitty parts.


EDIT:

Oh! Also!

Which makes wonder why these games continue to half-ass the scaling.  Surely they have the data to know what statistical disadvantage a level 11 has to level 20 in a level 11 - 20 battleground and can hand out buffs to the level 11 until it's minimal.  Same goes with people in premades vs. those in not.  It seems brain dead to not do this.

WAR did do that, in the battlegrounds. Where you were fucked was in the ... whatever they called the more open world PvP hotspots.

And Ingmar, we didn't lose that last relic we painstakingly planned to capture to 500 Albs! It was 300 Hibs. 

[Paelos]

You'd think that, but the 100 people is probably 32 /stuck buffbots, 15 scouts, 24 infiltrators, some armsmen, and a lost paladin.

[Mattemeo]

Which makes wonder why these games continue to half-ass the scaling.  Surely they have the data to know what statistical disadvantage a level 11 has to level 20 in a level 11 - 20 battleground and can hand out buffs to the level 11 until it's minimal.  Same goes with people in premades vs. those in not.  It seems brain dead to not do this.

11-20 BGs are bad crazy, sure. But what about 80-85? We're talking a shift of HP bordering nearly 100k difference in those 5 levels for some classes. One hundred fucking thousand HP. The inflation is pants-on-head clownshoes titty twisting insane. For me, that was the straw that broke the decrepit PvP Camel's back in WoW.

[Fordel]

And in a 100 vs 20 situation, the 100 zerg has a five times higher chance of hitting the CC button first.

You'd think that, but the 100 people is probably 32 /stuck buffbots, 15 scouts, 24 infiltrators, some armsmen, and a lost paladin.

That's something 8v8 groups like to gloss over when they roll that group of 30 at the mile gate. That their 8 man squad had more healers in it then the entire 30 at the gate. 

[Ingmar]

Which makes wonder why these games continue to half-ass the scaling.  Surely they have the data to know what statistical disadvantage a level 11 has to level 20 in a level 11 - 20 battleground and can hand out buffs to the level 11 until it's minimal.  Same goes with people in premades vs. those in not.  It seems brain dead to not do this.

11-20 BGs are bad crazy, sure. But what about 80-85? We're talking a shift of HP bordering nearly 100k difference in those 5 levels for some classes. One hundred fucking thousand HP. The inflation is pants-on-head clownshoes titty twisting insane. For me, that was the straw that broke the decrepit PvP Camel's back in WoW.

The penultimate bracket is 80-84, 85s are in their own bracket by themselves.

[Trippy]

I think there are a lot of rose-colored balance glasses being pointed at DAOC. DAOC's PVP balance issues 'polluted' PVE at least as much as WoW's did in my experience. The only reason people notice it more in WoW is WoW's PVE is actually worth doing.

Rose-tinted glasses or not, I still don't think anyone's come as close to getting it right since pre-ToA DAoC.

sb.exe?

[Rendakor]

Hey guys, I hear someone's making a Star Wars MMO.

[Fordel]

Dirty lies and rumors!

[Sky]

Hey guys, I hear someone's making a Star Wars MMO.

Wait, they're not done talking about how much pvp sucks.

[Rasix]

I was waiting for the right time to bring up pre-Trammel UO.

[Lantyssa]

Hey guys, I hear someone's making a Star Wars MMO.

Doesn't matter since anyone with actual knowledge still can't say anything about it.

[trias_e]

Melee trains at least let you control your character to a degree. You could also kill the main assist for good times 

/drunk

...If you were a primary melee class.

I played a friar in daoc.  I did fine during the CC days because I paid attention and broke off from the group when we encountered another group.  When they introduced determination and whatnot, I was utterly worthless. 

After determination buffs,  I might peel away and try to heal, but I would instantly get trained, snared, and burned down.  Allowing players to target one particular person without any negative impact is bad game design.  AoE CC, in an even fight (where both groups get CC off) could actually be fairly even.  Too much was on the shoulders of the CC'er, but in a good fight where both parties were paying attention it was quite a bit of fun and not at all a steamroll.

[Fordel]

Melee trains at least let you control your character to a degree. You could also kill the main assist for good times 

/drunk

...If you were a primary melee class.

I played a friar in daoc.  I did fine during the CC days because I paid attention and broke off from the group when we encountered another group.  When they introduced determination and whatnot, I was utterly worthless. 

After determination buffs,  I might peel away and try to heal, but I would instantly get trained, snared, and burned down.  Allowing players to target one particular person without any negative impact is bad game design.  AoE CC, in an even fight (where both groups get CC off) could actually be fairly even.  Too much was on the shoulders of the CC'er, but in a good fight where both parties were paying attention it was quite a bit of fun and not at all a steamroll.

That's the big IF though. For every proper group vs group duel, there were 10 more "Mids on our left, got em, clean it up, reform we are checking AMG now". 

[Kirth]

Hey guys, I hear someone's making a Star Wars MMO.

your not on team 300.

[Surlyboi]

Hey guys, I hear someone's making a Star Wars MMO.

your not on team 300.

This. Is. Spartaaaaa. Coruscant!