SWTOR

[Numtini]

It's no different from a rec softball or soccer league either.

And you're likely to have all of those things.

[Rasix]

You're not likely to raid your way to physical fitness unless they add Kinect support.  

Reminds me I haven't played tennis since my son was born. 

[01101010]

My cat, guitar, fiancee, house, yard and phone are not present at the movie. It's also generally a date thing, we go out to dinner and a movie. We're not going out to dinner and then she can sit and watch me raid for 3 hours.

The plan is to shoot for something like Murgos is talking about. A couple nights a week where we plan on getting together, everyone shows up within 15 minutes of the start time or we call it off. I have no stomach for sitting around waiting for people to dick around, ironically the same reason I haven't grouped much in the past - I don't like inflicting my own adhd on others. If my fiancee walks in, I'm not going to ignore her to play a game, if I get a song idea, I'm not letting it die to play a game, if my cat walks in, I'm going to go play with him rather than ignore him for a game. She came home while I was in the middle of a BB game the other day and it SUCKED having to play the second half while not being able to concentrate on talking to her.

Anyway, rather than focus on how easy or not it is to have a casual raiding lifestyle, lets just say that's what we're shooting for with BCTOR and see where it goes.

Man good on you. I have never wanted to talk to someone I see on a daily basis that much - ever. In fact, I would purposely go play BB or go golfing just to NOT have to talk to someone.

I think this raiding issue fits nicely with the other thread on the aging demographic of gamers and how their play in-game has been changing. Most of us probably were hardcore poopsocking raiders at some point in time in some older game and yes, even in WoW. I am not going to speculate on ages of everyone here, but it should go without saying that our gaming age is roughly the same with some outliers. (Babyboomers of the online gaming community?) That said, this aging has shifted gaming priorities and game devs would do well to listen and not stick with traditional raid systems that do not fit the playing population mentality.

And if we can glean one thing from the other thread about gaming demographics, that should be, females do play online games and they should NEVER be put in charge of a guild or raiding group.  

In terms of SWTOR... (fuck why are you making me learn this shit) are we playing red or blue in BC? Since there are no god damn droids, I'll have to start looking at something sooner or later.

edit: spelng!

[Malakili]

As to the 'uninterrupted' issue of time: 3 hours uninterrupted is about the same amount of time, maybe a little less, than it takes to watch a movie at the theater.  Counting time to get there, time standing in line(s) and time waiting for the previews, plus the 2 hour movie (give or take 20 minutes), you've got at least 3 hours dedicated solely to 'go watch that specific movie'.

Its kind of fair kind of not as a comparison.  On the one hand, you are right, you could shut your office door, turn off your phone get a snack before hand and just say "this is my 3 hours of 'going to the movie.'"  On the other hand, do you really go to a movie 2-3 nights a week? Even once a week?

Let me say that if you are single this seems a lot more viable to me.  My wife doesn't begrudge me my gaming habits, but neither am I going to ignore a request she makes for 3 hours so I can game.  If I am in the middle of a round of a shooter and she asks me something and I say, can it wait 15 minutes, its no big deal, but I'm not going to ask her to wait until 11pm when the raid finishes to pick up our discussion about X, or to take care of Y, its just silly.  Its just inconsiderate.  I'm not going to put myself in a position where I have to either inconvenience her to that degree, or inconvenience my group while I get up and do something.  The only reasonable solution for me is just to refrain from doing it at all at this point in my life, and I'm fine with that.  

Again, I'm not saying raiding should be changed so that someone in my situation feels like they can raid, I'm fine with not raiding.  I'm just explaining why it isn't really a viable option for me.   ESPECIALLY when there are lots of other ways I can game that DO fit with the way I can play.  Maybe this last point is the most important.  Its not as if raiding = gaming, if it was that might be something different (aka rec soccer league mentioned below), but I can easily enjoy my gaming time without it interfering with other things as it is.

[Ingmar]

The only reasonable solution for me is just to refrain from doing it at all at this point in my life, and I'm fine with that.

The other reasonable solution is to get her to raid with you. 

[Malakili]

The only reasonable solution for me is just to refrain from doing it at all at this point in my life, and I'm fine with that.

The other reasonable solution is to get her to raid with you. 

I was actually thinking that after I wrote that, she isn't interested in video games outside of New Super Mario Bros. etc though :).  And thats fine, I'm not interested in watching her crappy vampire shows, so it evens out.

[Cyrrex]

One last edit:  I don't see how this whole discussion is super relevant to SWTOR though.  It seems like there is going to plenty of non raiding content to keep that actually want to play busy. 

Picture a million rabid star wars fans being told they basically can't kill the new equivalent of Darth Malak and loot his fancy stuff.  Really to me just the thought of it is a bit scary.   In WoW I only cared about the loot.   Here I'm going to feel some serious rage if I can't be a part of that story.

This is a very relevant point.  I've literally never raided in any MMO before, but it'll be different for this game...I'll want to do it just to see the story and go kill the bombad Jedi General.  I give roughly zero fucks for the shiny (okay, I want the shiny crystal that turns my lightsaber purple, but it'd be a secondary consideration).  Here's hoping they truly make it accessible.

[Amaron]

Again, I'm not saying raiding should be changed so that someone in my situation feels like they can raid, I'm fine with not raiding.  

I don't think anyone feels raiding should be removed really.   For me I just want to see raiding changed into something ONLY for people who enjoy it.   There should be no special higher powered raider gear.   No raid only story etc etc etc.

Then after you do that give them real raiding gameplay.   Add ladders for starters.    Hell add a HARDCORE ladder (hell I might even play that).   Add a professional ladder with full blown EQ style progression.   You can add actually useful guild abilities only usable in a raid.   You can add raid only mechanics dependent on teamwork etc etc etc.   In all honesty the raiders suffer as much from the current system as we do.   All this stuff isn't allowed in WoW because normal players would scream bloody murder to be excluded from the rewards.

[Numtini]

What we've done is I've had a couple of guilds that had set raiding times. And I just stick to those and that time is set aside as if I had gone to a soccer match or something.

The problem with that is not a lot of guilds want to actually be reasonable and keep to a schedule. The 7pm-10pm guild wants to pull "just one more time because we're so close" as I look at the clock and see it's 11:30pm and when we finish they tell me I've lost my spot because I'm not coming to the "optional" raids. Or the guild that actually does keep to its 2 day a week stop promptly at 10pm schedule loses half its members because they want to raid 7 days a week and didn't think they really meant it was only two days.

[Draegan]

Seriously some of you have a crazy image of what raiders actually do to "raid".

I've raided with several different types of groups from top 10 in the world all the way down to lots of Pugging.   I'm a consultant who sets my own hours so I still have time for it and even in my older age I'm still good enough to go with your average top guild on a server.  I won't do it though because raiding relies on several concepts that just aren't fun.

Rule #1:  You don't play with your friends.
Rule #2:  You don't play with your friends.
Rule #3:  These are your new Friends™ you play with them.
Rule #4:  You raid when scheduled or you don't raid at all.

All of the above makes perfect sense for a team sport.  Do I want to play a team sport?  FUCK NO.   I want to kill the Lich King in hardmode while pulling along my friend who's a baddie with ADD and can't even pay attention to the screen for very long.  I also want the best gear because I'm willing to put in the work and get the skills.   If some fucking elitist **** sucking "bro" doesn't like my anti team self entitlement view he can go suck his own.

What the hell is the point of team sports in an MMO if you have to change your friends anyways?

Show me where the pixal touched you.

As to the 'uninterrupted' issue of time: 3 hours uninterrupted is about the same amount of time, maybe a little less, than it takes to watch a movie at the theater.

A movie does not involve concentration.   A movie does not involve people being upset with you when you mess up.   A movie will let you pick among many time slots per day.   A movie is relaxing.  A movie has snacks.   A movie might even lead to you getting laid.

You are comparing machine guns and oranges.

Man, when I raid I make sure I have snacks.  And beer.  Raids also let me pick when I want to raid, assuming the game is popular and has a lot of guilds playing it.  Just look at WOW.  Raids are fun, and relaxing to me.  I enjoy the challenge and concentration required to do it.

I also play with friends.  I also make new friends!

Raiding is fun.  Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's a shitty gameplay mechanic.

This is more of a generic statement, I have no idea how it's going to turn out in SWTOR.  I'm probably not going to raid in TOR, but other have good points as to cutting people off from the story in raids.  Hopefully they don't do that.

[Amaron]

Show me where the pixal touched you.

   I was totally serious about the ADD friend.  He'll only play priest and he watches TV.

[Soln]

Malakili said a lot I agree with.  Raiding isn't just a personality trait, it's a learned skill demanding lots of practice time.  Usually practicing to wait around -- for people to show up, to make decisions, to help people get gear, to decide who's turn it is to do what.

I find raiding is more about social exchange -- "you owe me on my alt for the time I helped you get your boots and shoulders, and the time I dropped to play my healer" -- than it is problem solving, team work, etc.  i just don't find that kind of commerce fun in a game.

[Malakili]

So, getting away from the raiding discussion if I may, I was reading through the PC Gamer articles linked on page 202 of the thread and found this which sounds pretty neat actually, its about cover for the agent class.

Taking cover
What Kaliyo and I lacked in kindred spirits, we made up for in kindred bullets. Kaliyo’s bullet-spray-and-hand-grenade combat style was the perfect complement to the Agent’s long-distance, precision attacks. The Agent’s key combat mechanic—taking cover—is activated by holding Shift. When you do so, all nearby cover locations are highlighted in real-time; you can tap R to roll into the one you’re looking at.

Cover functions fairly realistically: it isn’t a flat percent-damage reduction. If you’re behind it (based on line-of-sight) when someone shoots at you, it misses completely. If you’re standing up and shooting at them, you’re going to get hit. Cover degrades as it gets shot, and some abilities are designed specifically to shoot over cover or knock you out of it, so complacency could cost you.

I'm kind of interested that you can shoot "at" someone who is behind cover and miss them because they were behind the cover.  This doesn't strike me as "normal" for your standard MMO targeted combat systems. I'm not sure how this mechanic works in actual combat, but it sounds neat. 

[01101010]

Man, when I raid I make sure I have snacks.  And beer.  Raids also let me pick when I want to raid, assuming the game is popular and has a lot of guilds playing it.  Just look at WOW.  Raids are fun, and relaxing to me.  I enjoy the challenge and concentration required to do it.

I also play with friends.  I also make new friends!

Raiding is fun.  Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's a shitty gameplay mechanic.

This is more of a generic statement, I have no idea how it's going to turn out in SWTOR.  I'm probably not going to raid in TOR, but other have good points as to cutting people off from the story in raids.  Hopefully they don't do that.

Aren't you recently married? 

[Sky]

I'm kind of interested that you can shoot "at" someone who is behind cover and miss them because they were behind the cover.  This doesn't strike me as "normal" for your standard MMO targeted combat systems. I'm not sure how this mechanic works in actual combat, but it sounds neat. 

Sure, in pvp in Rift I'd duck behind a building or something to break LoS, pop out to shoot, pop back in.

[Ingmar]

I'm kind of interested that you can shoot "at" someone who is behind cover and miss them because they were behind the cover.  This doesn't strike me as "normal" for your standard MMO targeted combat systems. I'm not sure how this mechanic works in actual combat, but it sounds neat. 

Sure, in pvp in Rift I'd duck behind a building or something to break LoS, pop out to shoot, pop back in.

That's just simple LOS though rather than an actual cover mechanic.

[luckton]

I'm kind of interested that you can shoot "at" someone who is behind cover and miss them because they were behind the cover.  This doesn't strike me as "normal" for your standard MMO targeted combat systems. I'm not sure how this mechanic works in actual combat, but it sounds neat. 

Sure, in pvp in Rift I'd duck behind a building or something to break LoS, pop out to shoot, pop back in.

That's just simple LOS though rather than an actual cover mechanic.

I know, right?  It's like having a tower shield that deflects ALL the damage instead of some of it...or some crazy shit 

[Malakili]

I'm kind of interested that you can shoot "at" someone who is behind cover and miss them because they were behind the cover.  This doesn't strike me as "normal" for your standard MMO targeted combat systems. I'm not sure how this mechanic works in actual combat, but it sounds neat.  

Sure, in pvp in Rift I'd duck behind a building or something to break LoS, pop out to shoot, pop back in.

Well thats what I'm wondering, in most games it just seems to cut LOS and cancel their spell or whatever.  So, is this just a fancied up version of that but it lets them target and fire at you anyway (and just have a 100% miss chance, or whatever %), or is there something more to it.  What if the laser shot is 1/2 way to me when I pop out, does it hit me?  This seems like more than just playing LOS games.

[Amaron]

Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's a shitty gameplay mechanic.

I made it pretty clear it's not a shitty gameplay mechanic.   I said I want the game to make it so I can get all the raid rewards and story and content without doing the raids.   Really it's stupid that raiders try to stop this every time.   It's an elitist knee jerk reaction that only hurts them.   Raiding could be made far better for what raiders want if it didn't have to support people who hate it.

[01101010]

Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's a shitty gameplay mechanic.

I made it pretty clear it's not a shitty gameplay mechanic.   I said I want the game to make it so I can get all the raid rewards and story and content without doing the raids.   Really it's stupid that raiders try to stop this every time.   It's an elitist knee jerk reaction that only hurts them.   Raiding could be made far better for what raiders want if it didn't have to support people who hate it.

When your game has no ending and no winner at the end, the players will fill that void with whatever they deem the golden calf - for the most part in recent history, it has been the purples.

[Amaron]

When your game has no ending and no winner at the end, the players will fill that void with whatever they deem the golden calf - for the most part in recent history, it has been the purples.

Exactly that's why raiders are better off without having a gear advantage.

[Draegan]

Man, when I raid I make sure I have snacks.  And beer.  Raids also let me pick when I want to raid, assuming the game is popular and has a lot of guilds playing it.  Just look at WOW.  Raids are fun, and relaxing to me.  I enjoy the challenge and concentration required to do it.

I also play with friends.  I also make new friends!

Raiding is fun.  Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's a shitty gameplay mechanic.

This is more of a generic statement, I have no idea how it's going to turn out in SWTOR.  I'm probably not going to raid in TOR, but other have good points as to cutting people off from the story in raids.  Hopefully they don't do that.

Aren't you recently married? 

My wife goes to bed early because she has to get up real early for work.  I go to bed real late because I don't need much sleep.  So there is a time of about 4-5 hours where I'm up and she's asleep.  Gamer's paradise!

[Malakili]

When your game has no ending and no winner at the end, the players will fill that void with whatever they deem the golden calf - for the most part in recent history, it has been the purples.

Exactly that's why raiders are better off without having a gear advantage.

Basically what you seem to be talking about is Diablo - grouping totally optional.  Sounds ok, but I do think it would totally destroy raiding.

[Draegan]

Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's a shitty gameplay mechanic.

I made it pretty clear it's not a shitty gameplay mechanic.   I said I want the game to make it so I can get all the raid rewards and story and content without doing the raids.   Really it's stupid that raiders try to stop this every time.   It's an elitist knee jerk reaction that only hurts them.   Raiding could be made far better for what raiders want if it didn't have to support people who hate it.

Without getting into the whole shitty reward for difficult content discussion, my belief is that different content should reward different things and the relative power of those things should be based on it's relative difficulty that isn't based on time spent doing the same thing (i.e. not letting solo players grind out something over the space of 4 months and get equal power rewards).

So I want really cool things from more difficult content that makes my character stronger.  If you can come up with equally challenging content that is solo, 2 man, 5 man whatever-man based, then that's awesome and I'll play that game too.

Side note:  I'd love to see an MMOG with challenging 5 man content progression much like 10-20 man raiding progression.  That would be pretty awesome.

[Soln]

hasn't the problem always been the reward mechanics?  If you offered raiders intangibles/BOA like cosmetics, titles, pets instead of blues/purples that create mudflation and basic inequality (those items don't level down outside the raid instance -- good anywhere on anything) I wonder if that would help.  Keep the time sink and group complexity -- just remove the gear inequality.  Feel free to throw a shoe at me for what I'm missing, like the probable fact that people would not like this approach.

[palmer_eldritch]

Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's a shitty gameplay mechanic.

I made it pretty clear it's not a shitty gameplay mechanic.   I said I want the game to make it so I can get all the raid rewards and story and content without doing the raids.   Really it's stupid that raiders try to stop this every time.   It's an elitist knee jerk reaction that only hurts them.   Raiding could be made far better for what raiders want if it didn't have to support people who hate it.

Without getting into the whole shitty reward for difficult content discussion, my belief is that different content should reward different things and the relative power of those things should be based on it's relative difficulty that isn't based on time spent doing the same thing (i.e. not letting solo players grind out something over the space of 4 months and get equal power rewards).

So I want really cool things from more difficult content that makes my character stronger.  If you can come up with equally challenging content that is solo, 2 man, 5 man whatever-man based, then that's awesome and I'll play that game too.

Side note:  I'd love to see an MMOG with challenging 5 man content progression much like 10-20 man raiding progression.  That would be pretty awesome.

EQ2 has a series of hard, hard dungeons at max level (90) for six-person groups which are comparable to a raid for difficulty and also have raid-like gear progression (you need gear from the easy level 90 dungeons to make the hard level 90 dungeons possible). And they give nice loot, as they should.

[Azuredream]

Why stop there? Why not have a challenging solo/duo/trio progression?

[palmer_eldritch]

hasn't the problem always been the reward mechanics?  If you offered raiders intangibles/BOA like cosmetics, titles, pets instead of blues/purples that create mudflation and basic inequality (those items don't level down outside the raid instance -- good anywhere on anything) I wonder if that would help.  Keep the time sink and group complexity -- just remove the gear inequality.  Feel free to throw a shoe at me for what I'm missing, like the probable fact that people would not like this approach.

It's a nice idea but if those titles, pets and other cosmetic things are actually considered desirable then the people who aren't getting them because they are not raiding will still be unhappy. On the other hand, if the non-raiders only care about items with stats then you probably also need to give them stats for the raiders to feel proud of having them.

The problem with raiding as a concept is that it is supposed to involve a big epic fight against massively powerful bosses - dragons, demons etc - and it doesn't make sense in fictional terms to hand out the same reward for that as a player can get for killing lots and lots of gnolls solo. It also doesn't make sense in gameplay terms because raiding is actually harder - not just harder because it takes 24 people instead of one but harder because what each individual member of the raid has to do is harder than what a solo player has to do killing stuff solo.

Draegan's idea of making solo content which is just as hard would make sense if it is workable, but I don't know if it is (I appreciate he's not actually saying it's possible either). Playing an important role as part of a team of people where different members play different roles at various points in the fight, and have to work together and communicate with each other, is just inherently harder than playing on your own.

[Amaron]

Without getting into the whole shitty reward for difficult content discussion, my belief is that different content should reward different things and the relative power of those things should be based on it's relative difficulty that isn't based on time spent doing the same thing (i.e. not letting solo players grind out something over the space of 4 months and get equal power rewards).

As you say that's an entirely different discussion.    Game devs haven't figured out how to do this though.  Until they do the only sane decision is to set some sort of moderate skill bar that players have to jump over to get the best loot.   Something like short but sort of difficult 5 man hardmodes you can do once a day.

Then you can take the raids and make them 40 man wipefests again like the raiders want.

Basically what you seem to be talking about is Diablo - grouping totally optional.  Sounds ok, but I do think it would totally destroy raiding.

No I'm not opposed to grouping at all.   I'm saying put the Esport in some sort of special esport system and develop it into it's own thing that's fun for those people.   Then put in normal raids that aren't so heinous that have the same rewards as the esports.   Maybe make it so the Esport people get first crack at it for 3 weeks or whatever.

Wrath actually came pretty close to this at the end.  They were making the raid easier and easier with an increasing buff.  Problem is that buff was being applied to the esport people too so they didn't really like it.

[Malakili]

Side note:  I'd love to see an MMOG with challenging 5 man content progression much like 10-20 man raiding progression.  That would be pretty awesome.

Isn't WoW getting DESTROYED for having heroic 5 mans being too difficult?

[Sky]

Make raid rewards only usable in raid instances.

[Ashamanchill]

Side note:  I'd love to see an MMOG with challenging 5 man content progression much like 10-20 man raiding progression.  That would be pretty awesome.

Isn't WoW getting DESTROYED for having heroic 5 mans being too difficult?

Yeah but to be fair to Draegan those aren't progression content, those are (or should have been) farm content.

[Malakili]

Side note:  I'd love to see an MMOG with challenging 5 man content progression much like 10-20 man raiding progression.  That would be pretty awesome.

Isn't WoW getting DESTROYED for having heroic 5 mans being too difficult?

Yeah but to be fair to Draegan those aren't progression content, those are (or should have been) farm content.

Shouldn't that distinction been by player, not by content?  I don't see why for some people heroic 5mans couldn't be their "Progression" content, or at least some rough equivalent.   I dunno, I guess instead of talking in isolation about raiding we'd need to spend some time laying out all the possible "stuff" to do at end game and what rewars you would get for what, but I honestly think that would be worth having a separate thread for if we really wanted to try and hash it out.

[Amaron]

Isn't WoW getting DESTROYED for having heroic 5 mans being too difficult?

More that they put in these heroic 5 mans which are absolutely horrible and give absolutely horrible gear.   You get blue drops and tokens to buy blue stuff.   The normal 5 mans are just mostly leveling content.    So basically they didn't put in ANY sort of semi-difficult 5 man content for normal players.   The hardcore players who don't raid hate it too because they get crap gear for doing it and they are better off just doing a 10 man raid which is far far easier than the 5 mans.

[Ingmar]

Side note:  I'd love to see an MMOG with challenging 5 man content progression much like 10-20 man raiding progression.  That would be pretty awesome.

Isn't WoW getting DESTROYED for having heroic 5 mans being too difficult?

Yeah but to be fair to Draegan those aren't progression content, those are (or should have been) farm content.

Shouldn't that distinction been by player, not by content?  I don't see why for some people heroic 5mans couldn't be their "Progression" content, or at least some rough equivalent.   I dunno, I guess instead of talking in isolation about raiding we'd need to spend some time laying out all the possible "stuff" to do at end game and what rewars you would get for what, but I honestly think that would be worth having a separate thread for if we really wanted to try and hash it out.

The reason it doesn't work like that in WoW is the gear from 5 man heroics is a prerequisite to non-heroic raiding. That was the big mistake they made in amping the difficulty of heroics this time around.

Amaron: the fact that the gear is blue is meaningless. Gear stats are purely based off of ilvl now (as of Cataclysm) in WoW, so purple 346s would be no different from blue 346s if they existed.