SWTOR

[Sky]

Let's start a release date pool.

March 31, 2012

[luckton]

Let's start a release date pool.

March 31, 2012

I'm really surprised we haven't gotten a sub-forum yet...or is that our page 200 unlock? 

[Malakili]

Let's start a release date pool.

March 31, 2012

I'm really surprised we haven't gotten a sub-forum yet...or is that our page 200 unlock? 

It might get one when the game is released.  But I wouldn't expect one before that. 

Feburary 25, 2012

[luckton]

I'm staying away a least a month away from March, as that's ME3 month.  I wouldn't put it past one developer to put out two high-profile games simultaneously, but I think it'd be kinda hard.

[Sky]

Oh, that's a good point. Both Sci-Fi RPGs, too. If they stay locked into "2011" (which as we know can be weaseled into "But we meant fiscal!"), that does push them back a bit. I don't think they'd even want the free month for overlap ME3's release. That would limit them to the end of January.

[Paelos]

November 8th, 2011.

They need to release it in 2011 to make the FY palatable.

[Sky]

I'm kind of scared if it releases then. Pretty much all projects should be wrapped up, getting dark early and lots of time for gaming (what I'm now calling the "Italian Holiday"  ).

On the other hand, I should find out soon if this side job deal is going to firm up, which would mean 12-15 hours days and probably no gaming at all, which would make me sad pandy.

[luckton]

It's gotta be this year, even if they suffer from feature creep by a little and fail to finish one or two areas.  Gotta remember that even WoW wasn't 'completely' finished when it was released.

[Malakili]

It's gotta be this year, even if they suffer from feature creep by a little and fail to finish one or two areas.  Gotta remember that even WoW wasn't 'completely' finished when it was released.

The market is a lot less forgiving then it was when WoW was released though.  I think it'll be ok if a few things get added back in later, but they can't afford to launch buggy, thats proven to kill a hell of a lot of games.

[luckton]

The market is a lot less forgiving then it was when WoW was released though.  I think it'll be ok if a few things get added back in later, but they can't afford to launch buggy, thats proven to kill a hell of a lot of games.

True, but then BW is a lot like Blizzard in that they have a long track record of single-player games and a full-on QA department in service for years.  I don't expect there to be a lot of bugs...balance issues and some features not fully fleshed out, but actual game-delaying or game-stopping bugs?  Naaaaah.

[Sky]

Didn't they feature lock a month or two ago? I'm pretty sure creep won't be the problem, but the polish will probably be maddening.

Also, wondering what BC denizens are thinking as far as advanced classes, now that the new page gives some idea how they're shaking out.

[luckton]

Didn't they feature lock a month or two ago? I'm pretty sure creep won't be the problem, but the polish will probably be maddening.

Also, wondering what BC denizens are thinking as far as advanced classes, now that the new page gives some idea how they're shaking out.

Since they said Troopers can be ranged-tanks, I haven't changed my mind.  I may go for Scoundrel Smuggler if they allow healer specs to still be able to solo effectively, since they've said that switching specs is going to be hard/un-wanted.

[Sky]

That's great, but BC is an Imperial guild and this isn't the site the discussion is on.

Fucking hate that they're not allowing easy role shifting ala Rift. Big mistake.

[Amaron]

I'm going to guess they're just fucking internally confused and the game will come out Nov 1st.   It would be an impressively kept secret if there's some problem so big that they'd miss that date by much.

[amiable]

I may go for Scoundrel Smuggler if they allow healer specs to still be able to solo effectively, since they've said that switching specs is going to be hard/un-wanted.

Really?  What a fantastically awful idea, pretty much guaranteeing a dearth of healers and tanks, because no one will want to play one because grinding will be such an incredible pain in the ass.  They better make sure every class has a "dps toggle" option that will greatly reduce their tanking/healing abilities but greatly increase their dps, because fuck it if I am going to kill 10,000 foozles in a gimpy ass healer spec.

[kaid]

Hard to say actually. Given after you get to level 8 or so all classes get pets. Healer stats appear to buff companions tanking abilities and DPS. So its possible that you plus a good tanking companion could solo just as well as anybody else.

[Fordel]

Define hard/un-wanted, in regards to respeccing.

[luckton]

Define hard/un-wanted, in regards to respeccing.

Right now, on record, the devs have said that you can pony up and pay to redo your point spread for your base and advanced class.  They still have not decided whether they're gonna let you change your AC.  Changing your base class is obviously out of the question.

[Sky]

They think the companions are going to fill the holes, but sometimes you might feel like tanking, sometimes there's already a better tank. Even if I have the opportunity to pull out my dps companion, why have two tanking specs hanging out all sub-optimal? What if I'm in the mood to dps becuse Fordel is tanking?

Yes, I'm actually arguing for a more group-friendly system :p

But Rift did that SO RIGHT. They've had since the Rift beta events (probably before, but let's stick with public knowledge) to put in role/spec slots. MMO going forward should not be locking people into a single spec and then making it punitive to change. Rift almost delivered on 'bring the player, not the class' and fell short. TOR seems to have a shot similar to where Rift is now with 2 roles per advanced class, why not let players load up four different builds to play with (solo/group 1/group 2/pvp alone, if not 5 roles to add in a raid; assuming group 1 for one role like dps, and group 2 for healing/tanking whatever).

Changing advanced class, since it supposedly has no story effect besides a few comments about it, should be do-able technically, but I'd be less supportive of that vs role shifting. Maybe a quested changeover that can only be done once or twice per character.

[Nebu]

Each class should be able to handle at least 2 and maybe 3 of the 4 traditional diku roles well (DPS, tank, heal, support).  If it can't, then your game is going to struggle to be anything other than niche.  

[luckton]

Each class should be able to handle at least 3 of the 4 traditional diku roles well (DPS, tank, heal, support).  If it can't, then your game is going to struggle to be anything other than niche.   

I agree with this.  WoW started the trend with dual-specs.  Rift refined it with the soul system.  If they're not going to allow me to change my AC, at least give me stances or something so that my tank can put out some DPS.

It may be too late though...it's not like BW allowed you to respec your class in ME or DA.  Just have to settle for niche and wait a few months for them to learn their lesson.  I don't mind having to roll one of each class so long as I can change the AC to better fit the people I'm hanging out with.  With as much story, lore and polish they're putting into each class, to ask us to redo all of it again just so we can have one for each AC...

[Fordel]

What does 'Pony Up' mean? You'll be broke for 10 levels or is it like WoW where I've spent more on haircuts and not blinked?



The only role I would be concerned with is healing overlap and solo viability.


Like for Tank overlap, it really depends on how 'tight' the game is designed in terms of optimal groups and how much lee-way they give the tanking classes in non-tank situations. Like even in WoW, the Prot Specs can solo more then fine, you don't feel hindered in anyway while questing up or doing your dailies or whatever. In some cases, the prot spec is the superior solo spec in terms of speed and killing power. It's possible to have a system where multiple tanks can be in the group and nothing is really terrible or ineffective.


Healing is finite though, you only need X amount of healing/support. If one healer is keeping everyone going, then two healers isn't any increase in effectiveness. Healers are also notoriously shitty at soloing in most games.


Like, even if the game is loose enough that you could go into a dungeon with 5 DPS'ers without any real problem, being the healbitch that can't hurt anything is still lame when your trying to do your solo thing.



Maybe Healers output plenty of pressure on their own, who knows, could be all moot.

[Nebu]

If a game wants to become third generation, it would do so by forcing everyone to heal themselves.  Playing a healer is a thankless task that earns nothing but bile and derision.  

[Paelos]

If a game wants to become third generation, it would do so by forcing everyone to heal themselves.  Playing a healer is a thankless task that earns nothing but bile and derision.  

Yep, cracking out of the healer/tank mentality and designing things differently where you can do it in a group requires too much thought, though.

[Malakili]

If a game wants to become third generation, it would do so by forcing everyone to heal themselves.  Playing a healer is a thankless task that earns nothing but bile and derision.  

Am I broken because I leveled 1-60 in vanilla WoW as a resto druid and liked it?

[Nebu]

Am I broken because I leveled 1-60 in vanilla WoW as a resto druid and liked it?

That or you never had to endure a pug.

[Fordel]

Yes, you are functionally retarded even Malakili, but this is not news when it comes to your stupid game preferences.  

[Malakili]

   I don't actually disagree with what Nebu said actually, I think its the logical progression.   But I do actually enjoy healing in games, its generally speaking the first class I role in any game which has a healer class.  Unfortunately, I don't know if its possible to retain that role as optional without it becoming effectively required in group play because I suspect even if it is technically optional, having a dedicated healer even if you don't need one is generally always going to make it easier.  So it probably has to be done away with or at least totally rethought.

[Ingmar]

There are actually a reasonable number people who deliberately seek out and enjoy the dedicated healer role, giving them something to do is not necessarily bad.

[Fordel]

No there aren't, that's the entire problem! 

[Ingmar]

You can find them in any of the many CoX threads demanding the empathy power set for villains. 

[Nebu]

There are actually a reasonable number people who deliberately seek out and enjoy the dedicated healer role, giving them something to do is not necessarily bad.

While this is true, the number that enjoy it never seems to meet demand. 

If you're wanting to accomplish a group encounter, what two things are almost always being searched for?  Tank and healer.   I'd argue that many of those that claim to "enjoy playing a healer" do it more to ensure a spot in groups rather than because they genuinely enjoy it.  They enjoy the phat lewtz.  Playing a healer is their mechanism for obtaining them. 

I will confess that I enjoy playing a healer in Rift.  I think it's because Rift did an excellent job of coupling pew pew to my healy healy as a chloromancer.   

[Fordel]

What people bitch on forums about and what people do in actual games are not the same thing Ingmar.  

[Paelos]

There are actually a reasonable number people who deliberately seek out and enjoy the dedicated healer role, giving them something to do is not necessarily bad.

Those 10 people can play WoW forever then. I mean come on.

[Ingmar]

If I may dip into amateur psychoanalysis, the people I'm thinking of do it because they have a need to feel needed.  As opposed to people like me, who play tanks because we need to feel in control.