SWTOR

[Ingmar]

This is f13, remember, "generic" is really just code for "I don't like it."

[eldaec]

Reading this thread from start to finish, it's fun watching expectations slowly erode before my eyes. 

Personally my expectations have risen over the course of this (3 year) thread.

I was orginally expecting the 'story elements' to compromised to such a degree we were looking at a pve-only version of guild wars.

As time went on it was starting to look more like Hellgate but with production values.

Now it feels more like WoW with a hundred metric fucktonnes of cut scene inserted and more instancing.


That's an arc of progression right there. I'm intrigued enough to play it for month or so, but not expecting much more than that. Though there is still a fair chance EA will find a way to give it some kind of DLC or microtrans herpes so complicated and annoying that I will lose all interest in even trying it.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Now it feels more like WoW with a hundred metric fucktonnes of cut scene inserted and more instancing.

It's as if my tongue has the ability to time travel and I can already taste your disappointment. It tastes...delicious.

[Malakili]

You had nomadic orcs, native american minotaur people, goth zombies and jamaican trolls and lots of other 'hooks' for people to start the game up and say "oh this is awesome!" and going to undercity or thunderbluuf for the first time truly felt that way for many.  

As a huge fan of the Warcraft series, when WoW came out the fact that I was IN that world I had been playing in RTS form for years created "wow" moment after "wow moment" for me. Granted, I bet there are a lot of WOW players who don't even know Warcraft existed before WoW. Still, the experience for newbies has a lot of really awesome moments for people who have never played an MMO before, and they do it better than other contemporary MMOs.    I think a lot of us those nuances you mentioned out the door at this point.  What the fuck do I REALLY care if my character is a goth zombie or a nomadic orc - I'm still collecting 10 floozles.  But when all you see is mechanics (like I admittedly tend to do at this point) its super easy to white wash everything as "the same" when a lot of people who aren't really gamers would find lots of differences.  

This works both ways though, I have a friend that says Diablo and WoW are basically the same game because you collect gear.

[eldaec]

Now it feels more like WoW with a hundred metric fucktonnes of cut scene inserted and more instancing.

It's as if my tongue has the ability to time travel and I can already taste your disappointment. It tastes...delicious.

Difficult to imagine how one can can get all that disappointed when your going in position is 'WoW with more cutscenes'. These are not stellar expectations to start with.

[Lakov_Sanite]

a hundred metric fucktonnes

 

  I think a lot of us toss those nuances you mentioned out the door at this point.  What the fuck do I REALLY care if my character is a goth zombie or a nomadic orc - I'm still collecting 10 floozles.

and I agree with this, at some point the newness wears off and that's when solid gameplay matters most but for some, it took years for that awe to go away.

[Sky]

Reading this thread from start to finish, it's fun watching expectations slowly erode before my eyes. 

Star Wars MMO? Eh, why bother? It's an mmo. Just put your balls in a vice and throw in the New Hope DVD.

In the case of TOR (and Rift) I think there will be enough initial interest to recoup a healthy chunk of the development budget and both games look to be competent enough to continue to generate a decent amount of revenue, as long as you don't expect meelions of players subbed.

I've become quite the optimist!

[Nebu]

Typical MMO faire: Lots of promises and flash. 

I am interested in seeing more... that's a start.

I'll play it for a month.  Hell, I'll play any MMO for a month.  I feel like a battered spouse.  "He hits me because he loves me!"

[Sky]

I'm trying to remember the last mmo I bought. I haven't even played EQ2 in a year or so.

That said, timing is really crucial to TOR for me. If they release it next spring, I'm not sure how much I'll get into it. If they release it this fall, I'm worried for my sanity :)

[Fordel]

People keep saying "WoW with cut-scenes" like it's a bad thing. If the game is actually as good as WoW, with Cut-Scenes, then it will be gold and satisfy us for years.


The problem is, I don't think it will be WoW with cut-scenes, it will probably be WAR with cut-scenes. 

[Malakili]

People keep saying "WoW with cut-scenes" like it's a bad thing. If the game is actually as good as WoW, with Cut-Scenes, then it will be gold and satisfy us for years.


The problem is, I don't think it will be WoW with cut-scenes, it will probably be WAR with cut-scenes. 

True.  For all the WoW clones, no one has managed to actually clone WoW yet.  Rift is probably the closest I've played, but without a guild full of people I've been playing with for 5 years, it couldn't compete.  I guess thats the other side of the coin.  Its not just a game to switch, a lot of people have relationships attached to WoW.

[Lantyssa]

The problem is, I don't think it will be WoW with cut-scenes, it will probably be WAR with cut-scenes. 

I'm more worried about it being FFXIV with cut-scenes...

[Ingmar]

At this point I'm quite confident I'll be able to extract at least the box's price worth of fun out of this game, personally.

[Rasix]

At this point I'm quite confident I'll be able to extract at least the box's price worth of fun out of this game, personally.

Easily.  I'm not sure what'll go on at max level, but getting there takes forever for me, nowadays.

[Sjofn]

I have always been a giant alting crazypants, so even if there's nothing at the end for me to do, if there's enough to get me through a couple of alts and the game is actually, you know, fun, they could have me a while.

[eldaec]

People keep saying "WoW with cut-scenes" like it's a bad thing. If the game is actually as good as WoW, with Cut-Scenes, then it will be gold and satisfy us for years.

I guess that depends entirely on your opinion of WoW, and of cut scenes.

I'm expecting the quality of SWTOR to be indistinguishable from the quality of WoW, but only from my perspective as an EVE-playing-master-race mmo guy. OTOH cutscenes are fun and will add novelty. So that's nice.

I'm not expecting the gameplay to be as good as say, CoX or EQ2.

[Fordel]

You think EVE is a good game, your argument is invalid. 

[eldaec]

Eve Online : A Bad Game is not a good game.

My point stands.

[Merusk]

The problem is, I don't think it will be WoW with cut-scenes, it will probably be WAR with cut-scenes. 

I'm more worried about it being FFXIV with cut-scenes...

Would that be better or worse than Shadowbane with cut-scenes?

[Venkman]

Worse. SB was playable... well, playable more often anyway. :)

and I agree with this, at some point the newness wears off and that's when solid gameplay matters most but for some, it took years for that awe to go away.

Yea. Climbing the same ladder with a different skin gets old after the 20th time. Whether it's the same diku with slightly different abilities, the same flavor-text/kill-foozles game mechanic, or the same exact type of players just with different usernames, eventually any one of those three things greatly improved doesn't mitigate the boredom of repeating the other two. Particularly fantasy. Setting matters when the story matters when your actions matter in the story.

In MMOs though, if you get that into the story, you're either rare, or the IP is big enough that you've bought the books and comics. I'm not "living a story" when it takes 22 hours to figure out how to finish the quest by downing the last boss in a dungeon. Crap, if I even remember the story that started the quest chain at that point, that's only inspires me to go read the full quest on some wiki. It's the psychological feedback of the game mechanic pulling you throught the levels, not the narrative.

MMOs are crappy storytelling experiences unless you can finally get people to understand they are the story (which maybe happened before my time but seems less possible each passing year) or put story in the way of the repetitive/formulaec MMO-ness (which TOR is trying).

[Shrike]

I have always been a giant alting crazypants, so even if there's nothing at the end for me to do, if there's enough to get me through a couple of alts and the game is actually, you know, fun, they could have me a while.

Hell, this is all I want from the game. It'd keep me and a few select friends busy for a couple of months.

Personally, I'm betting on PSU with a lot better cutscenes.

[Margalis]

I'm more worried about it being FFXIV with cut-scenes...

FFXIV already had a lot of cut-scenes!

[Amaron]

If it's nothing more than WoW with cutscenes I'll still play it for months based on the fact that it's Sci-Fi.   I won't pretend I'm in any kind of majority for feeling that way.   There has got to be at least a significant chunk of people that feel the same though.

[Lantyssa]

They might feel that way, but will it actually hold their attention?  If someone is bored enough of WoW to want to switch, playing WoW with a new skin isn't much of a hook.  The shine wears off much more quickly, and there is a lack of years-long community and achievements to keep them around.

[Count Nerfedalot]

Sadly, the *potential* of sci-fi, vast spaces to explore, exotic planets, alien races, advanced technologies, powerful weaponry, etc, loses even more than fantasy does in the process of being queezed into tiny zones and short ranges and "balanced"  combat and diku level progression and a world either full of dumb AIs or almost as dumb players.

[Murgos]

WoW does not, and never has, equaled the entire MMO market.

Hyperbole much? WoW is an mmorpg, if you make a mmorpg and charge 15 dollars a month you are hence force competing with WoW. Unless WoW is unavailable in the region of the world you are selling to.

My point still stands.  The argument that, no one can even exist in even a remotely similar form to WoW and be a successful company is complete bullshit and disproven by half a dozen currently running, profitable MMO's.  Some of which not only have very similar mechanics, but also exist in the same fantasy genre (EQ2, LotrO, Guild Wars, etc...).

WoW is a big part of the market but there is plenty of room for competition.

[Outlawedprod]

My point still stands.  The argument that, no one can even exist in even a remotely similar form to WoW and be a successful company is complete bullshit and disproven by half a dozen currently running, profitable MMO's.  Some of which not only have very similar mechanics, but also exist in the same fantasy genre (EQ2, LotrO, Guild Wars, etc...).

The question will be can someone survive against WoW when they spend what Swtor did.  Regardless of the figures bandied about we all know more was spent on this than any previous competitor in the market.  It will be hard for someone to ever top WoW's profibility considering dev costs continue to rise and we aren't seeing sustained massive growth like WoW had in 2005-2007.

[Sky]

TOR only has to sell 2 million copies. While that sounds massive, given the Bioware stamp and the IP, as well as the polish level likely to be applied, I have a hard time seeing Rift outselling TOR, yeah?

Retention and its impact is another story, but I don't think the massive development costs will bite Bioware on this one. I mean, who here is not planning on buying TOR because the game should easily deliver enough content to be worth the box purchase? Even mediocre modern mmos have been doing that.

[Nebu]

I mean, who here is not planning on buying TOR because the game should easily deliver enough content to be worth the box purchase? Even mediocre modern mmos have been doing that.

That says a lot about the gaming options for those of us that enjoy playing MMO's.  There are so few quality options that most MMO enthusiasts will toss their money at anything playable.  As you stated, the Bioware stamp will about guarantee that the game is worth the box cost.  Whether it will be worth a subscription is an entirely different discussion.   

[DLRiley]

My point still stands.  The argument that, no one can even exist in even a remotely similar form to WoW and be a successful company is complete bullshit and disproven by half a dozen currently running, profitable MMO's.  Some of which not only have very similar mechanics, but also exist in the same fantasy genre (EQ2, LotrO, Guild Wars, etc...).

The question will be can someone survive against WoW when they spend what Swtor did.  Regardless of the figures bandied about we all know more was spent on this than any previous competitor in the market.  It will be hard for someone to ever top WoW's profibility considering dev costs continue to rise and we aren't seeing sustained massive growth like WoW had in 2005-2007.

Of Murgos half a dozen only Guild Wars reached its potential market wise. Everything else underperformed as in humbled into niche gaming status until eventually forced into looking at f2p model as the only way to remain relevant. Except City of Heroes. Its getting more expensive to build games for what ultimately becomes a more niche and hardcore audiences once the casuals abandon is mass. TOR spending several times more than say AOC isn't helping to buck the trend if the hardcore and niche gamers bear hug it for the diamond in the rough it really is  , while the casuals go back to WoW or various f2p games. The only way to get out of this cycle is to release shovelware to the niche/hardcore audience your really making the game for, *cough*darkfall*cough*startrek*cough*.

[Rasix]

I mean, who here is not planning on buying TOR because the game should easily deliver enough content to be worth the box purchase? Even mediocre modern mmos have been doing that.

That says a lot about the gaming options for those of us that enjoy playing MMO's.  There are so few quality options that most MMO enthusiasts will toss their money at anything playable.  As you stated, the Bioware stamp will about guarantee that the game is worth the box cost.  Whether it will be worth a subscription is an entirely different discussion.   

The way you plow through content, I'm sure you'll be able to determine that before the free month is up.

[Murgos]

Of Murgos half a dozen only Guild Wars reached its potential market wise.

Keep moving the goal posts.

A profit is a profit.  You don't have to make a billion a year to be successful.

[Sky]

Whether it will be worth a subscription is an entirely different discussion.   

And that's really the tough part. If you make it too much like WoW, you alienate folks like me and the not-inconsequential not-WoW audience. If you make it too unlike WoW, you alienate what is probably now termed 'mainstream' mmo players. If you walk the middle course, you alienate most of both. You have to be insane to develop an mmo.

[Lantyssa]

Retention and its impact is another story, but I don't think the massive development costs will bite Bioware on this one. I mean, who here is not planning on buying TOR because the game should easily deliver enough content to be worth the box purchase? Even mediocre modern mmos have been doing that.

Well, I'll point out that neither you nor I bought RIFT despite thinking it's the best MMO released in quite some time.  And after the last several years it's not release so much as retention which concerns me.  I want games to be good enough to make me want to stay involved with them.

[palmer_eldritch]

Of Murgos half a dozen only Guild Wars reached its potential market wise.

Keep moving the goal posts.

A profit is a profit.  You don't have to make a billion a year to be successful.

Yeah, this is a silly argument that comes up again and again. If you invest money in something, the measure of success is simply this - have I got a return on my investment, and have I got a return which is as good or better than if I had invested it elsewhere? (Which doesn't have to mean an alternative MMO, just any other place you could realistically have put your money).

To put it another way, if I buy shares then I judge whether my investment was a success based on whether I've made a profit and whether I've made more of a profit than if I'd bought different shares. I don't judge it based on a fantasy world where I go back in time and buy a share of Google in 1998, or, indeed, in Blizzard when they began work on WoW around 2001.