SWTOR

[Fordel]

Have the point of playing EVE is so you can claim superiority over all the other MMO players and their kiddie games. 

[Malakili]

Its quite possible that that is the best half too.

[eldaec]

It is just a different genre, you favour one kind of shiny over the other, you like level based advancement or you don't, you like the game to guide you with a sign saying 'monsters this way' or you value emergent gameplay and player drama.

You have to admit there is a steep learning curve and time sink involved with this game. Both the sink to level up your skills and to get to the point where you know the game systems as well as you do, to be able to pick and choose the activities you find enjoyable, just to know all the options that are there (like getting other players to do long hauls for you).

I don't think it's as simple as saying if you don't like Eve you want a sign pointing to the monsters. 

You are right of course, and the sign pointing to monsters thing was just me referring to idk-whatever-the-fuck-it-is-people-see-in-WoW, it is a mystery.

But the difference isn't pace. EVE is a nightmare to learn if you don't have other players to help, but if anything it plays faster than the dikus; maybe the central difference is simply having to interact with other players, and cope with a game focussed around other player's impact on the world - the last few years have taught us that not everyone wants that, even in a MMOG.

Half the point of playing EVE is so you can claim superiority over all the other MMO players and their kiddie games.

True dat.

[Venkman]

The whole "pace" thing is a red herring anyway. Both because what you're trying to achieve AND because how you achieve it just have no direct comparison. It's not separate games. It's separate audiences.

DAoEQWoWion have a very specific endgame you achieve through a very specific linear path of pre-mapped achievements. Eve is a lot more lateral. You don't have an endgame you didn't conceive yourself. You make your skillpath up along the way (or de-engineer a template old-UO style). "What to do" is never ever answered for you in Eve.

THAT is what makes Eve "hard". It's the same thing that made EQ1 easier to digest than UO. Eve will provide guidance by activity, but the overall goal of your avatar in that universe are entirely defined by you. It's hard to classify Eve as a "game" therefore because there's no clear path to a clear "game over" condition.

Yea, someone may jump in and say "same with <fashionable diku>". But the truth is that the only reason WoW doesn't have a "game over" condition is because the entire formula is based on preventing players from having the very last carrot before a new carrot is introduced into the game. Along the same linear path of singular achievement.

Anyway, it's 2000 all over again. EQ1WoW=game, UOEve=world.

[Malakili]

THAT is what makes Eve "fun".

Fixed.

Also, I really don't understand why having to choose what you do is considered "hard" though, seriously.   It as if you went into a grocery store and were paralyzed by the choices, so you just decided to leave.

[ajax34i]

Also, I really don't understand why having to choose what you do is considered "hard" though, seriously.   It as if you went into a grocery store and were paralyzed by the choices, so you just decided to leave.

Grocery store with aisles, labels on items, and staff that may direct you, vs. warehouse with one big pile of items in its center.

[Venkman]

THAT is what makes Eve "fun".

Fixed.

No. I put "hard" in quotes for a reason. Eve is not hard nor easy any more than any other game is fundamentally hard or easy. But it's perceived as hard by people trained by directed-gameplay dikus to expect pewpew WoW with spaceships.

As to your other part, see ajax's post. That's the analogy.

[Murgos]

Grocery store with aisles, labels on items, and staff that may direct you, vs. warehouse with one big pile of items in its center.

There are a lot of people who walk into a grocery store and only buy pre-packaged pre-made foods.  Pretty much precisely because they are overwhelmed with choices.

Box of frozen pizza?  Or, buy a chicken and figure out what to do with it?

Those who take the time to learn how to cook, arguably, have a much more fulfilling and enjoyable experience but that really does take years of work and risk of failure.  Frozen microwave burrito?  Not so much.

Open world games aren't missing the labels on the ingredients, or even good recipes for success, but they aren't as 'easy' as follow the path Diku.

[Venkman]

Woohoo let's stretch the analogy even more!

Learning to cook vs going out to eat. One is skill and choice, the other is consumption and some choice.

[Vash]

Yeah, Darnaiq beat me to it.

Some people find "cooking" or "learning to cook" time consuming, tedious, unfun, etc. especially if they always have to do it for every meal but that doesn't mean they can't have a gourmet meal.  Nice restaurants exist for a reason.  As long as your DIKU developer and content creators are putting out steak and lobster material why would you pay the same price and to have to make that yourself?   

I guess if current DIKU developers aren't making the particular meal or flavor you like, some people will be willing to go make it from scratch in a sandbox environment, but that's gonna be a hard sell to people who are currently satisfied.

[Malakili]

Yeah, Darnaiq beat me to it.

Some people find "cooking" or "learning to cook" time consuming, tedious, unfun, etc. especially if they always have to do it for every meal but that doesn't mean they can't have a gourmet meal.  Nice restaurants exist for a reason.  As long as your DIKU developer and content creators are putting out steak and lobster material why would you pay the same price and to have to make that yourself?   

I guess if current DIKU developers aren't making the particular meal or flavor you like, some people will be willing to go make it from scratch in a sandbox environment, but that's gonna be a hard sell to people who are currently satisfied.

Still, you can only eat steak or lobster so many times in a row, before it gets old. And I think that might actually be a particularly useful analogy for this game, because with SWTORs emphasis on their story driven campaign, they are going to keep "cooking" at an insane pace to keep up with making new content.

[Venkman]

About time someone said it. Now I can talk about the endgame in this analogy

You can open your own restaurant or you can become a food critic. Both can coexist but what they're looking for in these scenarios can't be any more different. One is about ownership, success, uniqueness. The other is about discerned consumption and comparison as well as self-learned preference.

A person who prefers WoW will look for quests and rafting and a game that delivers content in Eve, where it is really shallow until recently.

A person who prefers Eve will look to master the economy and resources and do find that both are really shallow in WoW, particularly as combat and ownership does not play nearly as big a role in it.

[Lantyssa]

Some people like a mixture, only their choices left a lot to be desired in critical areas... like not serving anything to drink with your dinner, or a waitstaff which left much to be desired.

[eldaec]

It as if you went into a grocery store and were paralyzed by the choices, so you just decided to leave.

Grocery store with aisles, labels on items, and staff that may direct you, vs. warehouse with one big pile of items in its center.

Grocery store with conveyors guiding you direct toward pre-packaged tat full of chemicals vs. farmers market selling the good shit but where everyone swears a lot and talks french. 

[Sky]

I like to cook at home, but I hate when the neighbors smash in my windows, rape my fiancee and beat me to death.

[Goumindong]

Also, I really don't understand why having to choose what you do is considered "hard" though, seriously.   It as if you went into a grocery store and were paralyzed by the choices, so you just decided to leave.

Its because choosing is hard.

Also, the situation that you describe, actually happens

Stores with less choices per product, so long as they keep the same amount of the stuff on the shelves sell more stuff than stores with variety. This study was done with grocery stores[there are some other weird/cool behavioral things in there as well, such as relative values and such]

[Venkman]

Sky wins this page.

Seriously tho, the understanding of option paralysis since the UO and EQ1 days. I assume it has happened since the Ultima vs Doom days too. The grocery study reminds me of some abstract that went around a few years back. This is a Human Condition type of thing made all the more apparent in a genre of Achiever-archetypes.

[Velorath]

This thread already sucked, and two pages of arguing over whether or not EVE is a fun game isn't helping matters.  This thread just needs to be denned at this point and restarted later when there's something to talk about.

[Surlyboi]

I like to cook at home, but I hate when the neighbors smash in my windows, rape my fiancee and beat me to death.

Fuck you, you were asking for it with your holier-than-thou cooking and shit.

[WindupAtheist]

I like to cook at home, but I hate when the neighbors smash in my windows, rape my fiancee and beat me to death.

I snuck into your house and stole your TV while you were cooking. Frankly I expect some gratitude for the dynamic world of risk versus reward and meaningful choices I have provided. Carebear.

[Severian]

The grocery study reminds me of some abstract that went around a few years back.

The Paradox of Choice: Why More Is Less
@ TED

[Venkman]

This thread already sucked, and two pages of arguing over whether or not EVE is a fun game isn't helping matters.  This thread just needs to be denned at this point and restarted later when there's something to talk about.

Please. SW-related threads exist in a realm of higher tolerance. 

In all seriousnes, I agree.

[Sky]

Vader thinks this thread is money!

[Cyrrex]

Surely Vader should be on something more significant, say, the twenty?

[Lantyssa]

He's on the 1, 5, 10, and 20.

[Sky]

Surely Vader should be on something more significant, say, the twenty?

I think that was an oblique jab at Washington. Please report to a re-education center, Citizen.

[Venkman]

You need to be in charge to be on currency. It'd be Palpatine on all of them.

[Stormwaltz]

Surely Vader should be on something more significant, say, the twenty?

"Shall we say, one million American dollars?"

[WindupAtheist]

I think I know how the rebels learned that a second Death Star was being built. "Many Bothan spies died" my ass.

[AutomaticZen]

Somehow, the lines behind Vader make him look almost... happy.  Weird considering he's wearing a mask.

[Surlyboi]

Surely Vader should be on something more significant, say, the twenty?

"Shall we say, one million American dollars?"

I see what you did there...

[SnakeCharmer]

They're taking beta aps

[Lantyssa]

Down for maintenance.

[raydeen]

Must be a great disturbance in the Force.

[Sobelius]

Down for maintenance.

Originally the message admitted that it was down due to the overwhelming response to request for closed beta testers. It said they were working on something to address the load.

The switch to "down for maintenance" is disappointingly opaque and makes me wonder what they're afraid of or want to hide. Someone at Bioware must think they'll get blasted for not being able to handle closed beta signups -- as in rabid posts about "if they can't handle hits on a web server how can they handle all the people when the game launches."

They should have stuck with the original wording. No matter how it looked, at least it sounded genuine.