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Ratman_tf
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Reply #1295 on: June 04, 2009, 10:00:33 PM

I'm talking about trying to tell a story through the gameplay, not removing all text from a game.
And i'm saying the gameplay itself is likely to fall short when it comes to that.

And who do we have to blame for that?

Quote
Quote
And yes, without the text popups, every sim's job is fundamentally the same.
What story does it tell you?

One story with multiple "skins" consisting of flavor text.

It's something MMOs haven't traditionally been very good at, but I think developers are learning and things will improve. To imply that MMOs are incapable of telling good stories is short sighted.

Exactly what I'm talking about. Right now, we get a block of flavor text, then we go punch mobs in the nards. Maybe you earn a cinematic after punching 1000 mobs in the nutsack. No matter how intricate and well crafted the cinematic or cutscene, it's totally irrelevant to what you're actually doing as a character. It's only flavor text. The cinematic may say you're a "great Jedi" or a "fearsome Sith Lord", but really, you're a womp rat hunter.



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Zane0
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Reply #1296 on: June 04, 2009, 10:12:20 PM

SRPGs will always always always have the advantage -- as long as the distinction is meaningful. You can make a storyline for your MMO, certainly, but I'll be damned if it hasn't been awkward, forced, uncomfortable, and ultimately irrelevant every single time.

The key to WoW's success was in making the MMO formula palatable enough for the masses to digest -- nothing more. It had little to do with establishing any sort of player narrative, and everything to do with the streamlining of fun; the distillation of character advancement into a near-visceral thrill.

KOTORO is barking up the wrong tree, methinks. Bioware wants to carve out its own special niche in design, but there's really no need. The Star Wars property will do well enough, the production values will do the rest, and everyone in the end will have learned all the wrong lessons.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2009, 09:08:11 AM by Zane0 »
Margalis
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Reply #1297 on: June 04, 2009, 10:27:36 PM

MMOs offer a huge range of storytelling techniques...

They do or the could?

As far as I can tell the storytelling techniques in MMOs consist of text blocks and...more text blocks? Even in-engine cutscenes are pretty rare.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Ghambit
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Reply #1298 on: June 04, 2009, 10:33:15 PM

I think a large part of the problem is most MMOs arent really developed as a shared experience.  Even though they're "massively multiplayer" in truth it's really more of every person for him/herself.  Studios want to cater to the individual to compel them to buy their product, but they water it down as such so that this fact doesnt impinge on someone else's version of their world.  What you end up with is a bunch of static elements that treat every character the same.  You can literally just finish whatever crummy story the MMO has to offer and it'd be exactly the same as everyone elses.  And largely when this is done, you're lucky if anyone even cares because there are 1000's of other people who've followed the exact same storyline as you.  Not only that, but the act of participation in the storyline itself largely goes unnoticed, because most of the "quests" are just to-do lists that instantly refresh for everyone.  You're basically punching a timecard.  Hence there's nothing truly shared about the characters and their world.

In a real story, it's just not like that.

What I like about Bioware's idea is that technically, with enough story-arcs you end up with not a single character being a clone of another.  The possible combinations of how one reaches "the end" far exceed the amount of players in the game.  In this sense, everyone does indeed have their own story; based on their decisions rather than just if they completed "x" quest.  What I'd really like to see though, is if they can craft a world where a player's actions actually stand out from others - to the point other characters say "wth.. wtf is that guy doing over there?  I dont recall having to do that."   Instead of "oh, Yubyub is just on his Rancor cave attunement quest.  3 more womprats and he's done."

Lastly, a character's actions should have tangible effects on the world.  You can't make or live a story w/o elements of it changing aside from just the character.
Take the design of APB for instance.  From what I've been reading, they plan on only have 100 players at a time in each city.... with each city linked in some way to a larger world.  The inherent goal of each character is to make their mark on the world, either good or bad... with the city itself being a living, breathing part of the storyline.  (similar to ATITD I guess)

(sigh)
There's no way in hell everything we want is going to EVER be in a game.  It's late, I must be more delusional than usual.  Peace out. why so serious?
« Last Edit: June 04, 2009, 10:35:39 PM by Ghambit »

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Margalis
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Reply #1299 on: June 04, 2009, 11:01:57 PM

Quote
What I like about Bioware's idea is that technically, with enough story-arcs you end up with not a single character being a clone of another.  The possible combinations of how one reaches "the end" far exceed the amount of players in the game.  In this sense, everyone does indeed have their own story; based on their decisions rather than just if they completed "x" quest...

Until the optimal path is discovered and people who don't follow it have trouble getting groups.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Triforcer
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Reply #1300 on: June 04, 2009, 11:08:33 PM

Quote
What I like about Bioware's idea is that technically, with enough story-arcs you end up with not a single character being a clone of another.  The possible combinations of how one reaches "the end" far exceed the amount of players in the game.  In this sense, everyone does indeed have their own story; based on their decisions rather than just if they completed "x" quest...

Until the optimal path is discovered and people who don't follow it have trouble getting groups.

This.  Also, unless every path leads to gear with exactly the same stats at exactly the same time in the progression arc, the nerdrage would be incandescent.  That's why Bioware's vision doesn't work in an MMO- not because it can't technically be done, but because doing it per se creates problems in other parts of the game, like the one Margalis and I are bringing up.   

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Margalis
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Reply #1301 on: June 05, 2009, 01:52:57 AM

It doesn't even work in their single player games.

How many people, when playing KOTOR, play a character straight down the middle if that's what they feel like doing vs. people who go all light or all dark because that gives you better abilities?

In basically every game where you have "moral choices" or story choices or anything of that sort if there are any ramifications to character abilities people tend to plot out a path that gets them the stuff they want rather than plotting out a path that fits their character. If the game has one specific order of events that gets you the epic sword people go on gamefaqs and follow that order.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
ajax34i
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Reply #1302 on: June 05, 2009, 04:58:23 AM

The problem is that MMO's focus on combat.  Take any novel / book you consider "good" and count how many pages are the pure fighting.

DLRiley
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Reply #1303 on: June 05, 2009, 07:14:18 AM

The problem is that Mmo's focus on character development. But character development is in books too right? Err wrong, character development is at the mercy of the story not the reader. The author takes a character and hopefully through logic finds the best way to change that character from one state to another. Linear vs Open story telling debate put to the side for a moment, in an mmo your character is at your best interest not just being another part of the world and by extension at the mercy of the most logical conclusion. Meaning mmo players, and by extension rpg's based on open story telling principles ultimately face the problem of people consistently picking the good path, not moral good, but power/most beneficial path for their characters. Except in single player games you can short change the characters and unless they use outside sources, they won't noticed and some won't be bothered rage if the outcome of there character/story arc wasn't the best possible. That will never, ever, not in a billion years, be the case for mmo players. Since 100% of their decisions must be 110% beneficial to their character or the nerd rage will ensue. Progression is king.
gryeyes
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Reply #1304 on: June 05, 2009, 07:18:26 AM

You truly have a dizzying intellect.
DLRiley
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Reply #1305 on: June 05, 2009, 07:24:36 AM

 awesome, for real
tmp
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Reply #1306 on: June 05, 2009, 07:38:50 AM

What you need to do is make sure that players can't help but experience the story as they perform the basic act of playing the game.
I think this sort of absolutes is just buzzwords on the level of "groundbreaking interactive edutainment experience" tbh. Or if you would, storytelling equivalent of philosopher's stone -- a nice dream which ignores physical limitations of the matter.

here's rather classic example of some semi-relevant storytelling: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6sj89xgnl4 ... the wall of text/dialogue wheel/cutscene part starts at 1:00 in. And hey, it even has moral choice thrown in there. What i'm getting at with it is, considerable parts of story aren't conveyed through "basic actions" but through interactions with other characters in the world. And that interaction involves communication which in turn generally involves text and/or voice acting. And often a pause in mob bashing. If the player plain refuses to pay attention to these bits ... then it rather drastically limits what themes and nuances you'll be able to convey to them, if you choose to pander to this part of audience at all cost.
tmp
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Reply #1307 on: June 05, 2009, 07:43:17 AM

And who do we have to blame for that?
No one, it is not a matter of blame. Humans invented language for a reason, because wide range of subjects couldn't and still cannot be communicated just through bashing the skulls and teabagging.

Quote
No matter how intricate and well crafted the cinematic or cutscene, it's totally irrelevant to what you're actually doing as a character.
It is totally irrelevant what goals motivate your character? So if you kick the puppy to save the galaxy or to send it into eternal damnation, it is the same story because hey, the puppy and the kick are appear the same?
« Last Edit: June 05, 2009, 07:48:50 AM by tmp »
CadetUmfer
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Reply #1308 on: June 05, 2009, 08:59:41 AM

It is totally irrelevant what goals motivate your character? So if you kick the puppy to save the galaxy or to send it into eternal damnation, it is the same story because hey, the puppy and the kick are appear the same?

No, it's irrelevant because after I kick the puppy to save the galaxy, the galaxy isn't saved and the puppy isn't kicked, and all I have is 5000XP and some +10 Board Shorts.

Anthony Umfer
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tmp
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Reply #1309 on: June 05, 2009, 09:06:56 AM

No, it's irrelevant because after I kick the puppy to save the galaxy, the galaxy isn't saved and the puppy isn't kicked, and all I have is 5000XP and some +10 Board Shorts.
Your 5000XP and +10 Board Shorts are entirely make-believe, too.

edit: btw i think closer analogy would be whether it's still the same story if you kick the puppy and get 5000XP, or kick it and get the Shorts instead?
« Last Edit: June 05, 2009, 09:11:46 AM by tmp »
Malakili
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Reply #1310 on: June 05, 2009, 09:14:36 AM

No, it's irrelevant because after I kick the puppy to save the galaxy, the galaxy isn't saved and the puppy isn't kicked, and all I have is 5000XP and some +10 Board Shorts.
Your 5000XP and +10 Board Shorts are entirely make-believe, too.


His point is, after he kicks the puppy and saves the galaxy, the next guy who does the quest line is going to kick the puppy and save the galaxy, I think.
tmp
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Reply #1311 on: June 05, 2009, 09:18:33 AM

His point is, after he kicks the puppy and saves the galaxy, the next guy who does the quest line is going to kick the puppy and save the galaxy, I think.
It may well be, but how does it change the fact his own character went with one action rather than other, thus shaping his own personal story in certain direction?
CadetUmfer
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Reply #1312 on: June 05, 2009, 09:54:58 AM

If you're okay with "story" being an optional side novel/audiobook for people who want to read it.

If it doesn't persist it doesn't matter.

If my decisions affect the world, or even my character, then I care.

Go into your average MMO.  How many people are talking about the story?  How many are talking about skills/XP/things that affect them?

Anthony Umfer
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Ratman_tf
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Reply #1313 on: June 05, 2009, 10:12:16 AM

If you're okay with "story" being an optional side novel/audiobook for people who want to read it.

If it doesn't persist it doesn't matter.

If my decisions affect the world, or even my character, then I care.

Go into your average MMO.  How many people are talking about the story?  How many are talking about skills/XP/things that affect them?

Running joke in my guild was that no one knew why we were killing Malygos except "He has Purpz!"



 "What I'm saying is you should make friends with a few catasses, they smell funny but they're very helpful."
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Ratman_tf
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Reply #1314 on: June 05, 2009, 10:14:33 AM

And who do we have to blame for that?
No one, it is not a matter of blame. Humans invented language for a reason, because wide range of subjects couldn't and still cannot be communicated just through bashing the skulls and teabagging.

Quote
No matter how intricate and well crafted the cinematic or cutscene, it's totally irrelevant to what you're actually doing as a character.
It is totally irrelevant what goals motivate your character? So if you kick the puppy to save the galaxy or to send it into eternal damnation, it is the same story because hey, the puppy and the kick are appear the same?

It is irrelevant in that I don't care if I kick a puppy or save it as long as I get my reward.



 "What I'm saying is you should make friends with a few catasses, they smell funny but they're very helpful."
-Calantus makes the best of a smelly situation.
HaemishM
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Reply #1315 on: June 05, 2009, 10:15:41 AM

True storytelling in an MMOG is missing one key ingredient. The only people who can act upon the world are the players. The NPC's do fuckall. They are there for 2 purposes: 1) to be killed or 2) to vend something (either a quest, a service, a product or a goods for currency exchange). Despite all their backstory, the NPC's that inhabit the world are there in complete service to the players. They have no motivations of their own other than kill the player or serve the player. The AI is fuckstupid - it can only love/hate/be indifferent to the characters. It doesn't seek to change the world, whether by conquering it or feeding the hungry or anything of the sort. All the lore about how Oceania is at work with Eurasia means dick if they expect the player to make all the efforts.

There won't be a real story in MMOG's until the AI is act and reacting to stimuli and motivations other than serving the player.

The basic personal story of players in MMOG's is "Look how I manipulated this series of levers."

tmp
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Reply #1316 on: June 05, 2009, 10:15:53 AM

If you're okay with "story" being an optional side novel/audiobook for people who want to read it.

If it doesn't persist it doesn't matter.

If my decisions affect the world, or even my character, then I care.
Very well then. Same question, reworded.

It is totally irrelevant what goals motivate your character? So if you kick the puppy and get +1 good alignment (because the story determined it to be good act) or get +1 to evil alignment (because the story determined it to be bad act) ... it is the same story because hey, the puppy and the kick are appear the same?

hey, permanent effect on your character. So, is the backstory telling you potential consequences of your decision still "totally irrelevant to what you're actually doing as a character"?
AutomaticZen
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Reply #1317 on: June 05, 2009, 10:18:53 AM

If you're okay with "story" being an optional side novel/audiobook for people who want to read it.

If it doesn't persist it doesn't matter.

If my decisions affect the world, or even my character, then I care.

Go into your average MMO.  How many people are talking about the story?  How many are talking about skills/XP/things that affect them?

Most decisions effect your character.  The world, usually not so much.

The problem is most want to be a special snowflake and feel awesome, but they don't want others' snowflakeness to mess with their game.

They essentially want a single player MMO with a bunch of mewling spectators.
tmp
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Reply #1318 on: June 05, 2009, 10:19:43 AM

It is irrelevant in that I don't care if I kick a puppy or save it as long as I get my reward.
Why request to have the story told through gameplay etc when you don't care about it to begin with? "Fuck story, pellets plx" seems more accurate here.
Ratman_tf
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Reply #1319 on: June 05, 2009, 10:22:21 AM

It is irrelevant in that I don't care if I kick a puppy or save it as long as I get my reward.
Why request to have the story told through gameplay etc when you don't care about it to begin with? "Fuck story, pellets plx" seems more accurate here.

That is what I mean when I say story is irrelevant to gameplay. It's not that I don't want story, it's that I don't care about it (as it's been presented in MMOGs so far)  because it's not relevant to what my character does in the game.



 "What I'm saying is you should make friends with a few catasses, they smell funny but they're very helpful."
-Calantus makes the best of a smelly situation.
tmp
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Reply #1320 on: June 05, 2009, 10:26:46 AM

That is what I mean when I say story is irrelevant to gameplay. It's not that I don't want story, it's that I don't care about it (as it's been presented in MMOGs so far)  because it's not relevant to what my character does in the game.
Yeah, but if it's for a change presented in that vague "no text/cutscenes" way that no one so far can actually put into any more solid details, would that make you start caring? Or in another way, could you give some short practical example of this magic new storytelling that you'd find relevant and engaging?

Because so far it mostly gives impression people demand pie in the sky without slightest idea what taste it should be, and they aren't even actually hungry to begin with...
gryeyes
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Reply #1321 on: June 05, 2009, 10:31:14 AM

I find backstory and lore to be pretty fundamental to me enjoying any game including MMO's. I have this thing called an imagination try to get into whatever universe i happen to fucking about in. EVE's lore is fantastic and it adds much flavor to the game and its presented almost entirely out of game.
Ratman_tf
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Reply #1322 on: June 05, 2009, 11:03:58 AM

That is what I mean when I say story is irrelevant to gameplay. It's not that I don't want story, it's that I don't care about it (as it's been presented in MMOGs so far)  because it's not relevant to what my character does in the game.
Yeah, but if it's for a change presented in that vague "no text/cutscenes" way that no one so far can actually put into any more solid details, would that make you start caring? Or in another way, could you give some short practical example of this magic new storytelling that you'd find relevant and engaging?

Because so far it mostly gives impression people demand pie in the sky without slightest idea what taste it should be, and they aren't even actually hungry to begin with...

I'll admit it's only a thought experiment. I am not a developer, and only do a bit of hobby programming. One thing I do know is that the thought of "more cutscenes and voiceovers" isn't very interesting to me at all. I do know that I get much more excited about a game when there's some feature that directly affects gameplay. Story is nice, but if someone wants to tell a story with text or cutscenes, they really should be making novels or movies instead of games. (IMO)



 "What I'm saying is you should make friends with a few catasses, they smell funny but they're very helpful."
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CadetUmfer
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Reply #1323 on: June 05, 2009, 11:14:47 AM

Or in another way, could you give some short practical example of this magic new storytelling that you'd find relevant and engaging?

The story about how enemy NPCs attacked last night and took out our last airbase on this planet so now I can't use my new "Call Airstrike" ability here would be interesting and urgently relevant.

And I'd be pretty proud of the story of how we fought all day to take it back, and I even earned a ribbon for valor AND a promotion to MSGT.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2009, 11:16:36 AM by CadetUmfer »

Anthony Umfer
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tmp
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Reply #1324 on: June 05, 2009, 11:18:42 AM

Story is nice, but if someone wants to tell a story with text or cutscenes, they really should be making novels or movies instead of games. (IMO)
Hmm to be honest i'm not sure. I mean, it's not like the story told through cutscenes etc doesn't date back to arcade coin-ops some 25+ years ago. They're part of the genre as much as the basic move lever/press key to jump paradigm, but suddenly it's uncouth to tell Mario the princess is in another castle...
WindupAtheist
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Reply #1325 on: June 05, 2009, 11:29:16 AM

It doesn't even work in their single player games.

How many people, when playing KOTOR, play a character straight down the middle if that's what they feel like doing vs. people who go all light or all dark because that gives you better abilities?

Eh, it's Star Wars. It's the very definition of black-and-white morality. The guy who thinks he's going to be all clever and pursue a complex and nuanced morally grey path of neutrality and then gets mad when the game just looks at him like he's retarded doesn't get that much sympathy from me.

I'm reminded of a billion years ago when Raph said he was never in a hurry to add an Ultima virtue system to UO, because people would just game it. And I thought... well shit, if "players will just game it" is a good reason not to have something, we may as well just delete everything, because players will game anything.

Powergamers will powergame. Let them. Personally after years of WoW and every character being a hero who does identical things, I'd like an actual story that gives me a choice about being a prick or not. Even if I only get the +2 lightsaber instead of the +3. I'm playing a blackguard in Baldur's Gate 2 at the moment, and his reputation can't go above 13 or he'll lose his evil powers. But at lower reputation everything costs more. Oh noes, I'm suboptimal. But it's fun.

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Lantyssa
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Reply #1326 on: June 05, 2009, 11:33:37 AM

MMO quests to date usually boil down to: Either do exactly what the NPC says and get a reward, or don't.

There are not multiple ways to accomplish the overreaching goal.  You cannot turn the quest foozle in to some other person.  You can't partially complete the objective.  You can't purposefully not accomplish the goal to cause a different outcome.  It's do X for a pellet.

It might give some simple context for whacking the foozle, or reveal some lore, but it certainly isn't compelling.  I love lore and read all the quest text, but even I can see that.  To date there aren't even consequences to your own character much less the world at large.  It is a very limited form of story telling, where really the player isn't an interactive part of it so much as filling in the blank with their name.

My impression is that SWTOR is trying to change that.  We'll see if they manage to.  Step one is going to be by allowing actual, meaningful choices.  Step two is by making it so there is not a perfect path where players feel cheated out of their optimal advancement because of their choices.  Step three is somehow keeping one and two from conflicting.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
tmp
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Reply #1327 on: June 05, 2009, 11:34:13 AM

The story about how enemy NPCs attacked last night and took out our last airbase on this planet so now I can't use my new "Call Airstrike" ability here would be interesting and urgently relevant.
Let's say that happened while you were asleep. Tactical map you can access when you login already tells you the airbase was lost, do you care beyond that what exactly happened, and if the answer is yes, what way is used to convey these details? And does the story ever evolve beyond "X took Y (back) and now i can/cannot use Z"?

I mean, i've played EVE, Planetside and number of others. EVE is the only one where you could say there's some sort of actual story resulting from the basic back and forths, and ironically enough that story is mostly told through walls of text on various game forums.
tmp
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Reply #1328 on: June 05, 2009, 11:44:22 AM

MMO quests to date usually boil down to: Either do exactly what the NPC says and get a reward, or don't.

There are not multiple ways to accomplish the overreaching goal.  You cannot turn the quest foozle in to some other person.  You can't partially complete the objective.  You can't purposefully not accomplish the goal to cause a different outcome.  It's do X for a pellet.
LotRO has started to experiment with adding some consequences to the player's choices recently. They put in a mini-arc where the player can hunt some rats protected animals for rewards, but can turn the quest giver in if they so choose. Doing the latter closes the chain but gives different reward (and different title)

Unsurprisingly people whined, but more about lack of big red text warning they're about to make some actual choice, than the presence of choice itself.
AutomaticZen
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Reply #1329 on: June 05, 2009, 12:01:17 PM

MMO quests to date usually boil down to: Either do exactly what the NPC says and get a reward, or don't.

There are not multiple ways to accomplish the overreaching goal.  You cannot turn the quest foozle in to some other person.  You can't partially complete the objective.  You can't purposefully not accomplish the goal to cause a different outcome.  It's do X for a pellet.

It might give some simple context for whacking the foozle, or reveal some lore, but it certainly isn't compelling.  I love lore and read all the quest text, but even I can see that.  To date there aren't even consequences to your own character much less the world at large.  It is a very limited form of story telling, where really the player isn't an interactive part of it so much as filling in the blank with their name.

My impression is that SWTOR is trying to change that.  We'll see if they manage to.  Step one is going to be by allowing actual, meaningful choices.  Step two is by making it so there is not a perfect path where players feel cheated out of their optimal advancement because of their choices.  Step three is somehow keeping one and two from conflicting.

Step Three is the big problem.

The way out most developers will take is making the rewards pretty much the same.  Instead of the +5 Strength, +4 Speed Vibroblade, you get the +4 Strength, +5 Speed Vibroblade.  Only min-maxers will care.

I'm with WUA on this.  If sticking to your roleplay is character slightly sub-optimal character, well that the drawback to sticking with your roleplay.
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