SWTOR

[Draegan]

That reminds me of WAR.

[Murgos]

I don't see why not. We already know that players will have (at least) one companion, don't we? There's a million and one ways to balance Jedi & Pal versus Trooper & Pal.

As long as Jedi & Pal = Obi Wan + Jar Jar and Trooper & Pal = Trooper + ATST.  

Anyway, I could dream up stuff for a squad based character system all day.  In stead of 'powers' you swap out troopers with skills.  Like, a medic trooper to provide in squad heals or limited out of squad heals.  Or a Machine Gun trooper for heavier hitting or a defense trooper with a deployable shield generator.

[calapine]

Again, I'm not only talking about combat.  Strengths and weaknesses can manifest themselves in other areas, but it probably depends a lot on the kind of game you're making.  I could think of plenty of ways to make Jedi a weaker character, whilst still being able to rape face in combat, just by loosely following canon.  Relationships?  Nope, sorry, unless you want to get your ass expelled.  Want a house?  Tough shit.  Inventory space?  Not so much.  Armor and cool clothes?  Never.  Oh, and you better toe the line, or you're history.  Want to solo your way up?  Not going to happen, Padawan.  So on and etc.

Oi! A very bad idea. Can you imagine the amount of player whine that's going to cause?

With Jedi vs. Non-Jedi, it isn't so much an issue of actual game balance, but perception. A Jedi losing to a lone Trooper would fly right into the face of most peoples idea of StarWars. A Jedi being gunned down by a small coordinated squad is a lot easier to accept.
You would still have the base power scale of 1 Human vs. 1 Human. But in game it would appear to be 1 SpaceNinja vs. 4 Commando Units.

I like it...but..As others have said in this thread: Probably to innovative and out-of-box thinking to be implanted. :(

According to the interview, Troopers have the highest ranged DPS in the game and also buff their party members.

DPS and Buffs...hmmm...

Jedi = Warrior
Trooper = Hunter
Force Jump = Charge
Power Strike = Mortal Strike
Sniper Shot = Aimed Shot
Set Blaster on "Stun" = Concussive Shot

Kiting Jedis to death! Awesome! 

[Fordel]

I like it...but..As others have said in this thread: Probably to innovative and out-of-box thinking to be implanted. :(

Oh I agree, it's totally wishful thinking and all that.



A Trooper is going to end up being the Sci-Fi version of a Hunter(minus pet) from WoW or a Engineer from WAR. Replace Blunderbuss with BlasterRifle, done.

[Venkman]

Wishful thinking for this game, but as we said a page ago, CoV Mastermind is a model.

They're damned either way. It's either a pale derivative of WoW with hella more quest text and lots of complaints, or something unique enough to be more appropriate for lore but similar enough to cause complaints.

[Fordel]

Maybe they'll end up being the 'tank' class, somehow.


Really, what the fuck do we know about the combat system in this game other then PEWPEW LASERS and WHOOSH WHOOSH LIGHTSABRE?

[Ingmar]

And yikes, Cyrrex. I hate your ideas regarding OOC balancing. A variety of constant nails-in-the-feet at all times, except when you're actively shitting on someone else's parade by being much stronger in combat? It'd be hard to find a more direct "I'm only happy when you're not happy" system outside of a Full loot PVP MMO

My definition of balance probably doesn't match well with others.  But if you don't find a new way of looking at this, know what you're going to get?  The same shit you always get.

No, your definition of balance just is wrong. You can't take a game with multiple systems where Class A is vastly overpowered in System X, and Class B is vastly overpowered in System Y and then declare that 'balanced'.

[Hindenburg]

Really, what the fuck do we know about the combat system in this game other then PEWPEW LASERS and WHOOSH WHOOSH LIGHTSABRE?

There's also crac crac FORCE LITENIN!

[Fordel]

I demand that in animated gif form.


-edit- Demands met!

[ashrik]

And yikes, Cyrrex. I hate your ideas regarding OOC balancing. A variety of constant nails-in-the-feet at all times, except when you're actively shitting on someone else's parade by being much stronger in combat? It'd be hard to find a more direct "I'm only happy when you're not happy" system outside of a Full loot PVP MMO

My definition of balance probably doesn't match well with others.  But if you don't find a new way of looking at this, know what you're going to get?  The same shit you always get.

Being innovative is prized as a virtue because it is used to find both different and good concepts. If everyone finished at just different, no one would care for innovation one bit. Let's play the new Gran Turismo game on the PS3. My car is faster and handles corners better, your car lets you navigate menu options quicker and plays jovial Baroque music while driving. Balance achieved! 

The devs should worry 1000x more about achieving internal consistency within the game, instead of within the universe as a whole. If they try and satisfy the latter, we have some Star Trek conundrum where otherwise good and fun ideas have to be tossed out or perverted just in order to ...what? Make the trivia master people feel like awesome Jedi's or otherwise crap? Wasn't the problem with that demonstrated when they opened up Jedi in SWG? Combat is of vital importance and the balance of it is a necessity. As a game, there's no reason for one side to be set up like a boss mob. haha specially when it's so popular already. I bite my thumb at your brain Cyrrex

The whine is a vocal symptom of an underlying problem.

[Cyrrex]

And yikes, Cyrrex. I hate your ideas regarding OOC balancing. A variety of constant nails-in-the-feet at all times, except when you're actively shitting on someone else's parade by being much stronger in combat? It'd be hard to find a more direct "I'm only happy when you're not happy" system outside of a Full loot PVP MMO

My definition of balance probably doesn't match well with others.  But if you don't find a new way of looking at this, know what you're going to get?  The same shit you always get.

No, your definition of balance just is wrong. You can't take a game with multiple systems where Class A is vastly overpowered in System X, and Class B is vastly overpowered in System Y and then declare that 'balanced'.

I agree.  I shouldn't use the word balance, because I don't even believe it's terribly important.  But as someone else said above, the amount of whine would be unbelievable.  People want to be able to pick the Cannon Fodder class and then bitch that it doesn't stack up fairly against a Sith Lord.  Until we stop giving a fuck about those kinds of people, we're going to get the same tripe we always get.

[Fordel]

The same could be said for people who expect every single Jedi to be Yoda or Windu etc. Not every Paladin is Uther and not every DK is Arthas and etc.

[Hindenburg]

That's.... a damn good point, actually.

[Cyrrex]

And yikes, Cyrrex. I hate your ideas regarding OOC balancing. A variety of constant nails-in-the-feet at all times, except when you're actively shitting on someone else's parade by being much stronger in combat? It'd be hard to find a more direct "I'm only happy when you're not happy" system outside of a Full loot PVP MMO

My definition of balance probably doesn't match well with others.  But if you don't find a new way of looking at this, know what you're going to get?  The same shit you always get.

Being innovative is prized as a virtue because it is used to find both different and good concepts. If everyone finished at just different, no one would care for innovation one bit. Let's play the new Gran Turismo game on the PS3. My car is faster and handles corners better, your car lets you navigate menu options quicker and plays jovial Baroque music while driving. Balance achieved! 

That's not even close to the same thing.  The things I compared were different gameplay elements (you could argue that some were more important than others, but whatever).  If a game is not only about combat, then the classes will have different strengths and weaknesses that have nothing to do with combat, period.  Droid Engineers get to make droids, and as a result they should be gimped at combat.  Medics shouldn't be as powerful combat toons as Jedi.  Jedi don't get to specialize in building speeders or houses.  

[ashrik]

They may not be close to the same thing for you, but I feel as if others would disagree. I think you have to be very careful when making differences between your classes and think about how that changes the experience. Some trade-offs for combat proficiency are palatable, others are far from it. I'm okay that a rogue would always out-dps my mage. I had mana crystals, CC, teleports, food/water conjuring etc to offset that.

You start pushing that limit of class differentiation to include crafting, solo-ability, clothing, important NPC interaction, etc...

I'm just saying that I don't see it as a new concept, class ability and trade offs, just as taking an existing one to a silly extreme. There would be whining, and justifiably so.

[Cyrrex]

I realize I'm probably in the minority (I rather liked pre-cu sandboxy SWG, mind you).  I guess I'd just prefer a more accurate depiction as to class strengths and weaknesses (I'll stop short of calling it immersion or realism).  The whiners are going to whine, regardless of what you do.

[Pennilenko]

Jedi don't get to specialize in building speeders or houses.  

Luke was pretty handy with all things mechanical.

[Ingmar]

Maybe they should go for this kind of vibe:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAHYftmwY0U

[Cyrrex]

Jedi don't get to specialize in building speeders or houses.  

Luke was pretty handy with all things mechanical.

Heh, I said specialize.  Dabbling is cool.

[Fordel]

Revan built HK-47, no? 

[Velorath]

Revan built HK-47, no? 

Dirt-poor slave Anakin built a fucking Pod Racer and C-3P0 when he was a damn kid for that matter.

[Venkman]

Tony built his in a cave!

(sorry, watching Iron Man again...)

Anyone who thinks Jedi are walking gods needs to watch that fight scene at the end of Episode 2. There, canon. No more mysteries, a dumb Jedi is as dead as a dumb anyone.

Luke could use this Force powers to sustain his body for weeks at a time without food. But he wasn't a very good cook.

[Ratman_tf]

Anyone who thinks Jedi are walking gods needs to watch that fight scene at the end of Episode 2. There, canon. No more mysteries, a dumb Jedi is as dead as a dumb anyone.

Jango went toe-to-toe with Obi-Wan and survived.

[Venkman]

Sorry, I wasn't clear:

I was talking about the 20+ Jedi running towards the droids holding their lightsabers like a bunch of freakin' 5 year olds waving tree branches. That whole Braveheart scene was wrong on every level. But it's canon.

Jengo vs Obi Wan, Jengo vs Windu, Obi Wan vs Vader and Luke vs Vader all show there's a lot of variety in how "skill" is shown.

[DLRiley]

Well Obi-Wan isn't as  as Windu and Luke has jobba aura plot shields so......

[Triforcer]

I don't understand why Jedi on Sith fights aren't more like Jedi Outcast/Academy Multiplayer- constantly spamming Force Pull/Push to crash them into things or go off cliffs.  You saw it a little with Dooku and Anakin, I think (both trying to push and canceling each other out, maybe I am misremembering who was in that fight) but most of them don't even seem to try. 

[Lantyssa]

Remember that the most climatic battles are between the strongest Jedi and Sith around.  Most rank and file would probably be lucky to have enough power tie their shoe laces with the Force.

[Fordel]

They mostly are just able to cancel each other out. You see them use the powers against crap like droids all the time. It's also probably demanding physically and mentally, potentially leaving themselves open for a more mundane counter attack.




Darniaq: Don't forget who had to fly in and rescue those Jedi! 

[eldaec]

Sword fights suck in computer games.

Weaselly force power games suck in films.

The abomination that is the extended universe includes bullshit like trainee jedi wrenching star destroyers out of orbit WITH THEIR MIND. And if tactical nous ever permeated the star wars universe, someone would have to explain why you don't fly around a death star at extreme range and attack directly down on exhaust ports, rather than this fly through the trench-o-lasers crap. Basically you have to just accept that lack of coherent tactical or strategic thought anywhere in the galaxy is 'canon'.

It's like teh gays, mentioning strategy or tactics in a SW game should get you banned, as 'these terms do not exist in the SW universe'.

[Merusk]

I was talking about the 20+ Jedi running towards the droids holding their lightsabers like a bunch of freakin' 5 year olds waving tree branches. That whole Braveheart scene was wrong on every level. But it's canon.

Sonic weapons, like those the Genosians use,  can't be deflected by sabers. This added to the slaughter.

They mostly are just able to cancel each other out. You see them use the powers against crap like droids all the time. It's also probably demanding physically and mentally, potentially leaving themselves open for a more mundane counter attack.

Doku and Yoda had their little Force power battle to explain why they run around beating at each other with lightsticks instead of Force Choking/ pushing a bitch, they cancel each other out most of the time.  As Tri mentions, you also saw some of this in the Obi-Wan / Anakin fight.

Jango held his own against Obi-Wan because Ben was trying to capture/ detain him while Jango was trying to kill Ben.  We saw what happens when it's "Jedi wants you dead" later.

[Sky]

enough power tie their shoe laces with the Force.

Don't spoil the new class!

[Yegolev]

This thread is getting all Star-Warsaboo.

[Ratman_tf]

This thread is getting all Star-Warsaboo.

It was inevitable. Now, meet your destiny!

[Fordel]

Jango held his own against Obi-Wan because Ben was trying to capture/ detain him while Jango was trying to kill Ben.  We saw what happens when it's "Jedi wants you dead" later.

You must note that before Jango got all decapitated by Windu, he mowed down a couple Jedi that tried to attack the platform they were on. Also, it was freaking Windu. 

[WindupAtheist]

If I've said it once, I've said it a million times:  You have Jedi and Sith because people will demand to play them, and you balance them evenly with all the other classes because to do otherwise would be idiotic game design. I'd rather they made the generic dude-with-a-gun class some sort of "Mandalorian Super Badass Commando Rambo Supersoldier" instead of just fucking "trooper" but that's only a name. The bottom line is that yes, the guy playing a non-force class ought to be able to pwnzerize your Jedi one-on-one in PVP if he's better at it than you.

If you want to feel like a superman slicing up dozens of dudes, well that's what NPCs are for.