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Author Topic: SWTOR  (Read 2071962 times)
Sky
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I love my TV an' hug my TV an' call it 'George'.


Reply #945 on: May 12, 2009, 07:37:44 AM

After this long, I've learned one thing about mmo: fuck immersion.

Also, fuck "meaningful".
NowhereMan
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Reply #946 on: May 12, 2009, 08:04:20 AM

I don't see the huge problem with not having every class be some variant of Jedi. KotOR managed to have meaningful characters that could kick ass that didn't have lightsabers, if I can be a trooper and kick half as much ass as Canderous then I don't think that's a shitty choice. You all seem to have been overly burned by SWG, rage about this when they reveal that Jedi will be some stupid prestige class you unlock when you hit 70. Frankly I think Star Wars is about Jedis but it's also always been about guys with blasters blowing each other up and I don't see how it's going to ruin the sense of it being Star Wars or how having the option is a shitty sign. I would have thought it was a weird choice if every class was some Jedi variant.

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Venkman
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Reply #947 on: May 12, 2009, 09:49:43 AM

It's not that SW is about Jedi. It's that KOTOR is about them. And I'm fine with there being non-Jedi/Sith classes, as long as each of those other ones can stand on their own too. The thing that concerns me about "Trooper" is the ratio. Yea, commandos in the Republic have tough weaponry and stuff, but none of them ever mano-a-mano a Sith. It's always like 20 to 1 or 30 to 1 or something.

Now, if they come along and say Trooper will be like CoV's Mastermind++, then I'll think they're actually thinking it through. But for now it just seems like the same ol' model for Jedi, Sith, Fodder Trooper, Fodder Medic, Fodder Droid Engineer, and so on.

It's really not about SWG. That game was very different and even after two tries and diku-izing, still is. It's more about combining WoW with SW and guesstimating the outcome from there. For me anyway.
Cyrrex
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Reply #948 on: May 12, 2009, 10:08:33 AM

You probably need to stay somewhat away from the ordinary trooper, but that doesn't mean there aren't examples that cannot be followed..  There are plenty of Commando (Mandalorian, Clone) types to model after, and they are bad asses.  Or ARC Trooper equivalents, even bigger bad asses. 

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Fordel
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Reply #949 on: May 12, 2009, 10:21:18 AM

You probably need to stay somewhat away from the ordinary trooper, but that doesn't mean there aren't examples that cannot be followed..  There are plenty of Commando (Mandalorian, Clone) types to model after, and they are bad asses.  Or ARC Trooper equivalents, even bigger bad asses. 


That's what I'm thinking. Even in KOTOR you had Mandalorians who were apparently taking out Jedi.



I would totally be fine with the class being an actual 'squad' though, like the Republic Commando game or a MasterMind etc...  Heart

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Cyrrex
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Reply #950 on: May 12, 2009, 10:26:07 AM

Yeah.  People would rail against it, but I'd just go ahead and make Jedi quite a bit more powerful, but let the Commando/Trooper/BH types simply gang up on them.  I would love that as either side of the equation.  I don't think the problem is so much in making a system like that work, but more of getting people to not be a bunch of whiny cunts about it.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Ingmar
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Reply #951 on: May 12, 2009, 10:28:07 AM

The KOTOR setting has pretty well established that Jedi can get their asses kicked by non-Jedi, I'm not sure why this conversation is even going on. Its a game, not everyone wants a lightsaber, and classes will be balanced (insofar as they ever are in an MMO).

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Hindenburg
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Itto


Reply #952 on: May 12, 2009, 10:29:35 AM

Oh you naughty boy, you ninja edited before I clicked the quote button.  Ohhhhh, I see.

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Rasix
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Reply #953 on: May 12, 2009, 10:35:15 AM

Fodder Droid Engineer

I'm not falling for that again!

-Rasix
Murgos
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Reply #954 on: May 12, 2009, 10:41:05 AM

I actually want to play a trooper after seeing some of those screen shots.

Getting to play a squad of troopers as a balance to individually stronger Jedi would be a fun mechanic, but I doubt we will see an outside the box mechanic like that anytime soon though.

"You have all recieved youre last warning. I am in the process of currently tracking all of youre ips and pinging your home adressess. you should not have commencemed a war with me" - Aaron Rayburn
Fordel
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Reply #955 on: May 12, 2009, 10:42:07 AM

Totally the fantasy I'm building up in my head:





I can't wait to be disappointed  awesome, for real

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Zzulo
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Reply #956 on: May 12, 2009, 10:44:16 AM

Perhaps the trooper squad mechanic is similiar to the mastermind mechanic in City of Villains

You could control around 6 or so minions there if I remember correctly.
Nonentity
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Reply #957 on: May 12, 2009, 10:45:17 AM

Fuck Jedi, I want to be a trooper.

i'm such a sucker for classes with guns.

But that Captain's salami tray was tight, yo. You plump for the roast pork loin, dogg?

[20:42:41] You are halted on the way to the netherworld by a dark spirit, demanding knowledge.
[20:42:41] The spirit touches you and you feel drained.
Fordel
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Reply #958 on: May 12, 2009, 10:46:07 AM

There is that one screen shot with the 3 non-armored soldiers with the Trooper.


/rampant speculation!

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Hindenburg
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Reply #959 on: May 12, 2009, 10:48:33 AM

Totally the fantasy I'm building up in my head:
I can't wait to be disappointed  awesome, for real
TBH that republic commando shooter was pretty damn good.

"Who uses Outlook anyway?  People who get what they deserve, that's who." - Ard.
Cyrrex
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Reply #960 on: May 12, 2009, 10:48:44 AM

I think there are ways to do it, but I'm not sure there is a will to do it.  Look no further than Ingmar's post.  Some people think that characters need to be balanced against each other.  I think that's crazy, but whatever.  There are plenty of ways to make this work, but it requires out of the box thinking that nobody is willing or able to pull off.  Everybody seems to be focused on creating combat balance, but I think strengths and weaknesses can manifested in other ways.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Ingmar
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Reply #961 on: May 12, 2009, 10:55:16 AM

I think there are ways to do it, but I'm not sure there is a will to do it.  Look no further than Ingmar's post.  Some people think that characters need to be balanced against each other.  I think that's crazy, but whatever.  There are plenty of ways to make this work, but it requires out of the box thinking that nobody is willing or able to pull off.  Everybody seems to be focused on creating combat balance, but I think strengths and weaknesses can manifested in other ways.

In an MMO that's just a way to ensure that nobody plays the weaker characters. Unbalanced characters can work, if you're playing something like pen and paper Ars Magica and there's a social contract in place so that you know next week, Bob will rotate in to playing the random fodder guys and you get to play the wizard.

EDIT: I will say it matters less if there's no PVP in the game, since you can presumably force certain characters to the forefront via encounter design or whatever, but players don't like that in general.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2009, 10:57:14 AM by Ingmar »

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Velorath
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Reply #962 on: May 12, 2009, 10:55:26 AM

According to the interview, Troopers have the highest ranged DPS in the game and also buff their party members.
Fordel
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Reply #963 on: May 12, 2009, 10:57:24 AM

Totally the fantasy I'm building up in my head:
I can't wait to be disappointed  awesome, for real
TBH that republic commando shooter was pretty damn good.


It also had the most terrifying Wookies I've ever seen.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Cyrrex
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Reply #964 on: May 12, 2009, 11:05:34 AM

I think there are ways to do it, but I'm not sure there is a will to do it.  Look no further than Ingmar's post.  Some people think that characters need to be balanced against each other.  I think that's crazy, but whatever.  There are plenty of ways to make this work, but it requires out of the box thinking that nobody is willing or able to pull off.  Everybody seems to be focused on creating combat balance, but I think strengths and weaknesses can manifested in other ways.

In an MMO that's just a way to ensure that nobody plays the weaker characters. Unbalanced characters can work, if you're playing something like pen and paper Ars Magica and there's a social contract in place so that you know next week, Bob will rotate in to playing the random fodder guys and you get to play the wizard.

Again, I'm not only talking about combat.  Strengths and weaknesses can manifest themselves in other areas, but it probably depends a lot on the kind of game you're making.  I could think of plenty of ways to make Jedi a weaker character, whilst still being able to rape face in combat, just by loosely following canon.  Relationships?  Nope, sorry, unless you want to get your ass expelled.  Want a house?  Tough shit.  Inventory space?  Not so much.  Armor and cool clothes?  Never.  Oh, and you better toe the line, or you're history.  Want to solo your way up?  Not going to happen, Padawan.  So on and etc.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Lantyssa
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Reply #965 on: May 12, 2009, 11:06:54 AM

EDIT: I will say it matters less if there's no PVP in the game, since you can presumably force certain characters to the forefront via encounter design or whatever, but players don't like that in general.
I would, too, but considering there was disagreement about my Keeping Up With the Joneses not being PvP comment, I think too many people get bent out of shape if they're perceived as being less powerful for it to work on a large scale.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2009, 11:39:03 AM by Lantyssa »

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
ashrik
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Reply #966 on: May 12, 2009, 11:11:02 AM

I actually want to play a trooper after seeing some of those screen shots.

Getting to play a squad of troopers as a balance to individually stronger Jedi would be a fun mechanic, but I doubt we will see an outside the box mechanic like that anytime soon though.
I don't see why not. We already know that players will have (at least) one companion, don't we? There's a million and one ways to balance Jedi & Pal versus Trooper & Pal.

As someone said before, fuck immersion. If these devs have even an ounce of sense (and that's relative to other MMO developers), they're going to take every complaint that involves Jedi normally beating tons of troopers and stuff it back in the retard hole it came from.

e: And yikes, Cyrrex. I hate your ideas regarding OOC balancing. A variety of constant nails-in-the-feet at all times, except when you're actively shitting on someone else's parade by being much stronger in combat? It'd be hard to find a more direct "I'm only happy when you're not happy" system outside of a Full loot PVP MMO
« Last Edit: May 12, 2009, 11:14:54 AM by ashrik »
Sky
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I love my TV an' hug my TV an' call it 'George'.


Reply #967 on: May 12, 2009, 11:18:48 AM

Perhaps the trooper squad mechanic is similiar to the mastermind mechanic in City of Villains
I hope Stormy is taking notes to send along to the appropriate people, because that would be pretty cool. Of course, I played a Mastermind, so I'm biased. Maybe mix in some of the minions from Sacrifice, lots of dialogue from the minions "Sir, yes, Sir!" Hire R. Lee Ermey.
Fordel
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Reply #968 on: May 12, 2009, 11:44:59 AM

I would hope they could somehow make it more cohesive then a master mind. Instead of the Leader + obvious pet minions, you instead have have your little squad of equals all in sync... somehow.



I might as well fucking say "do it right" at this point though.  why so serious?

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Cyrrex
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Reply #969 on: May 12, 2009, 11:48:43 AM

And yikes, Cyrrex. I hate your ideas regarding OOC balancing. A variety of constant nails-in-the-feet at all times, except when you're actively shitting on someone else's parade by being much stronger in combat? It'd be hard to find a more direct "I'm only happy when you're not happy" system outside of a Full loot PVP MMO

My definition of balance probably doesn't match well with others.  But if you don't find a new way of looking at this, know what you're going to get?  The same shit you always get.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Fordel
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Reply #970 on: May 12, 2009, 11:57:47 AM

With Jedi vs. Non-Jedi, it isn't so much an issue of actual game balance, but perception. A Jedi losing to a lone Trooper would fly right into the face of most peoples idea of StarWars. A Jedi being gunned down by a small coordinated squad is a lot easier to accept.

You would still have the base power scale of 1 Human vs. 1 Human. But in game it would appear to be 1 SpaceNinja vs. 4 Commando Units.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Triforcer
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Reply #971 on: May 12, 2009, 12:02:13 PM

That idea is intriguing but I think it would be frustrating for a lot of players.  Permanent and hardcoded 4 or 6 boxing a squad of generic soldiers doesn't help a player identify with his avatar.  You need that level of attachment and you don't get it in an MMORTS. 

Just have a scroll at the beginning of the game saying "Classes X, Y, and Z on the Sith/Republic side are full of the baddest badass Xs and Ys and Zs in the whole galaxy.  However, the Jedi/Sith war has devastated the force using ranks, so all the Jedi and Sith are pretty much punk teenagers with little skill."  That justifies the balance  awesome, for real

P.S. Hate the Trooper name.  They could've come up with something slightly less generic, like Republic Elite or Republic Special Forces or something. 

All life begins with Nu and ends with Nu.  This is the truth!  This is my belief! At least for now...
Hindenburg
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Itto


Reply #972 on: May 12, 2009, 12:03:55 PM

That idea is intriguing but I think it would be frustrating for a lot of players.  Permanent and hardcoded 4 or 6 boxing a squad of generic soldiers doesn't help a player identify with his avatar.  You need that level of attachment and you don't get it in an MMORTS. 

I was far more attached to my teammates in Republic Commando than I ever was to my character in any mmo i've ever played. Clearly this piece of anecdotal evidence is enough to make your argument crumble.

"Who uses Outlook anyway?  People who get what they deserve, that's who." - Ard.
Fordel
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Reply #973 on: May 12, 2009, 12:06:05 PM

That idea is intriguing but I think it would be frustrating for a lot of players.  Permanent and hardcoded 4 or 6 boxing a squad of generic soldiers doesn't help a player identify with his avatar.  You need that level of attachment and you don't get it in an MMORTS. 

I was far more attached to my teammates in Republic Commando than I ever was to my character in any mmo i've ever played. Clearly this piece of anecdotal evidence is enough to make your argument crumble.



Yea, let the players name and customize their Squad and Squad members, attachment issues won't exist.


Shit, look at how people love their Hunter pets in WoW!

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Ratman_tf
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Reply #974 on: May 12, 2009, 12:07:53 PM

After this long, I've learned one thing about mmo: fuck immersion.

Also, fuck "meaningful".

WoW is right there, man. You can buy a bag from Haris Pilton and go pew pew 7OL-TR-0N!

Jesus. Is wanting a game that's more than grab-ass at recess such a goddamn crime?



 "What I'm saying is you should make friends with a few catasses, they smell funny but they're very helpful."
-Calantus makes the best of a smelly situation.
Fordel
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Reply #975 on: May 12, 2009, 12:10:15 PM

After this long, I've learned one thing about mmo: fuck immersion.

Also, fuck "meaningful".

WoW is right there, man. You can buy a bag from Haris Pilton and go pew pew 7OL-TR-0N!

Jesus. Is wanting a game that's more than grab-ass at recess such a goddamn crime?

LotRO is right there man  Ohhhhh, I see.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Ratman_tf
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Reply #976 on: May 12, 2009, 12:11:15 PM

Fill the game with generic NPC's ala GTA or CoX.  If there are thousands of 'people' around then having two or three Jedi/Sith in one area isn't such a big deal.

Instance that shit, so everyone is seperated into their own copies of the world, and fill each instance with ewoks or gungans for the Jedi faggots to chop down in droves and prove their internet badassitude.

Money hats.



 "What I'm saying is you should make friends with a few catasses, they smell funny but they're very helpful."
-Calantus makes the best of a smelly situation.
Ratman_tf
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Reply #977 on: May 12, 2009, 12:13:01 PM

LotRO is right there man  Ohhhhh, I see.

LOTR is WoW without the fun. Fuck Turbine.



 "What I'm saying is you should make friends with a few catasses, they smell funny but they're very helpful."
-Calantus makes the best of a smelly situation.
Triforcer
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Reply #978 on: May 12, 2009, 12:13:26 PM

Also, if you want to save yourselves months of waiting, here are the four classes on each side:

Republic:  

(1) Jedi- melee DPS/minor CC/minor heal skills (pally, the ridiculous kind that got nerfed)
(2) Trooper- Mega Ranged DPS/battle auras
(3) Smuggler- Moderate Ranged DPS/CC master/debuffer
(4) Republic Covert Ops- stealth field generator burst melee DPS


Sith:

(1) Sith- Melee DPS/minor CC/minor ranged spells (death knight)
(2) Sith Commando- Mega Ranged DPS/battle auras
(3) Bounty Hunter- Moderate Ranged DPS/CC master/debuffer
(4) Sith Assassin- stealth field generator burst melee DPS


Healing with be largely self-done with stimpacks and the like, but otherwise won't play a big role.  

All life begins with Nu and ends with Nu.  This is the truth!  This is my belief! At least for now...
Fordel
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Reply #979 on: May 12, 2009, 12:14:47 PM

Nah, they'll split the Jedi's into multiple classes like in KOTOR.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
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