F13 in EvE: Band of Brothers headshotted! Come help us in Delve!

[Comstar]

Dammit, I'm going back to EvE. And after I said I'd never be back while BoB was still in existence.

Things I need to promise(*) myself-
- Don't post on COAD
- Don't post on Scrapheap
- Don't buy expensive implants (because I worry too much about losing them)
- Don't fly battleships or tech 2 ships in pvp (because I worry too much about losing them)
- Don't get depressed when I check how many years it will be before I can fly a Dread/Carrier in combat (I think I was still 9 months away).

Any other suggestions on things not to do that will ruin my enjoyment of the game?

----------
*- not that I expect to keep these promises, my Will score is crap.

[Jayce]

I wanted to take a step back and make some comments about what Eve is and isn't.  I have had a great time but I can imagine a few playstyles that probably shouldn't bother.

Eve's best feature is meaningful, strategic PvP.  Eve PvP is about 3/4 strategy, 1/4 tactics in any situation.  Much of it is a little like chess - always thinking what position you need to be in next, what the enemy knows and doesn't, what he's flying, how aggressive, etc.  This is true for solo 1v1 and for gang actions, though in a gang the fleet commander will be making the decisions, but the fun there is of course armchair FCing.  

When I say meaningful, I mean that the results of PvP are that you could lose whatever ship you bring, minus the insurance.  This is a big equalizer because if you fly (say) a dps cruiser, available at about a week or two into the game, you lose hardly anything.  It's very possible to blow up people with a lot more money invested if you are smart about it.  See Phildo's story above about killing the interdictor (advanced tech 2 ship) with his cruiser.

Another thing that makes it meaningful is that you can lose or gain territory, i.e. resources, by the results of the fights.  Sometimes this is painful and sometimes it's thrilling, depending on which side you are on.  It helps to have friends you can move in with if that happens, which is why this is the only game I know of where every alliance and major corporation (guild) designates diplomats. However, you can always run back to Empire if all else fails, which sets Eve apart from zero-sum, winner-take-all games like Shadowbane.

I was thinking the other day as I got ganked in WoW how every time I got ganked in Eve it was directly attributable to a risk I took, or a stupid decision I made, or something else in my control.  On a WOW or other game's PvP server, typically the scenario is that some person comes sprinting up to you, whom you have a better chance to turn into a chicken than to beat, locks you down and 1-3 shots you.  In EVE, you almost always have warning and an escape method if you're smart.  In fact how smart you are directly contributes to your survival, which I see as an improvement.  Also, I have never been 1-shot in EVE; the minimum has been six or seven (battleship vs my frigate) - plenty of time to flee if I had been of a mind.

However, if you're a fan of the style of PvP where you spawn in, run to the battle, gib within 1.4 minutes, respawn, and repeat, then you won't like it.  Also, if you're the kind of person who buys a level 70 just to arena with, you probably won't like it either.  Having a high-skill character is only part of the equation.  You have to understand and know a lot of things about the game, which comes naturally with skilling up a character from scratch.  

One thing that bothers me to no end is people claiming you can't "contribute" as a newbie.  In this very thread people have stated it.  The fact is, every newbie tackler in a provided, throwaway frigate is one more damage or shield module that can be fitted to the bigger ships, so contributing not only its own DPS but to the DPS of the fleet as well.  Not to mention, within a week you'll be in a cruiser and a month a battlecruiser doing your own real DPS.

Making ISK can be a problem before your skills get to battleship level if you only want to rat, but battleships have notoriously small holds.  Following an older player around with a hauler and a salvager can make great money as well as giving you a chance to bond with guildmates and learn about the game, not to mention increase their isk/hour.

One last thing - the time commitment.  I was amazed at the low time commitment of this game.  The offline skill training thing makes it really up to you.  I can probably count on one hand the times I've played for more than 2-3 hours at a time, the vast majority being under two.  Taking a night off is quite common as well as taking a break for a different shiny.  I'm currently on a WoW break but logging in to change skills or as the mood strikes me.  Then again, if you're Mistar Lives In Mom's Basement, there is plenty to do to keep you logged in for 18 hours a day with your TV dinners and not changing the cat litter.

So - try it. Take the free trial.  There is over 10 days until WoTLK comes out.  You aren't doing anything important anyway.

[Slayerik]

I was thinking the other day as I got ganked in WoW how every time I got ganked in Eve it was directly attributable to a risk I took, or a stupid decision I made, or something else in my control.  On a WOW or other game's PvP server, typically the scenario is that some person comes sprinting up to you, whom you have a better chance to turn into a chicken than to beat, locks you down and 1-3 shots you.  In EVE, you almost always have warning and an escape method if you're smart.  In fact how smart you are directly contributes to your survival, which I see as an improvement.  Also, I have never been 1-shot in EVE; the minimum has been six or seven (battleship vs my frigate) - plenty of time to flee if I had been of a mind.

This is so true. Knowledge is power in this game. Careful planning, risk assessment, taking responsibilty for your actions....these are all things involved in everyday Eve life. Excellent post Jayce.

[Endie]

For all you mining types, we just had a pretty exciting announcement on our forums that will make making money in our core systems much easier and quicker, and very profitable.

[trias_e]

Please stop tempting me.  Please.  I have to try to like WAR for a bit longer. 

If it dies I am so here though.  I even have an existing character with randomly placed skill points and 40 mil isk ready to rock.

[naum]

Stop enticing me.

Though my subscribed to MMO count is now 0 as I just recently canceled my WoW account (though it is active until end of November I believe).

And they have a Mac client too…

But then after a short honeymoon period, I'll quickly be disenchanted and disillusioned with the leveling grind and nonsensical factors…

[Endie]

Stop enticing me.

Though my subscribed to MMO count is now 0 as I just recently canceled my WoW account (though it is active until end of November I believe).

And they have a Mac client too…

But then after a short honeymoon period, I'll quickly be disenchanted and disillusioned with the leveling grind and nonsensical factors…

There is no levelling grind in Eve.  You set a skill training then it just ticks away until it finishes, then you set another, and so on.  The only thing you can "grind" is making money, if that is your bag.  And we have available ways to shortcut that.  Slayerik, being a generous soul and trying to make his peace with God after a history of murderous carebear-ganking, is handing every newbie enough cash to buy and fit out 10 or so of their race's best frigates.

To be honest, i quite like the minigame of training skills so they fit perfectly around when I pop home for lunch, when i go to bed etc...

[Endie]

New guys (I think the new gal already has it) should PM Viin for access to The War Room.  That contains the details of how to sign up and join in.

Also, do join the F13 public channel so we can get you advice on getting in.

[Viin]

New guys (I think the new gal already has it) should PM Viin for access to The War Room.  That contains the details of how to sign up and join in.

If you PM me, please PM your in-game name as well. :)

[Soln]

How is the PvP ganking in <5sec systems?  I left over being unable to mine/rat in lvl 3 systems.  Still butthurt.

[Quinton]

This is so true. Knowledge is power in this game. Careful planning, risk assessment, taking responsibilty for your actions....these are all things involved in everyday Eve life. Excellent post Jayce.

Every time I've lost a ship in combat, I've learned something that if I pay attention to will help me avoid losing a ship in the future.  I usually can look back and see that if I did X differently it would have affected the outcome of the engagement, which is very encouraging to me -- yeah they got me, but it wasn't like I couldn't have escaped or fought back if I was a little more on my toes or had the benefit of the knowledge I just gained.

Half the trick is making sure you pay attention to your surroundings and learning when to engage and when to run.

- Q

[Endie]

How is the PvP ganking in <5sec systems?  I left over being unable to mine/rat in lvl 3 systems.  Still butthurt.

If you're buried deep in our 0.0 space ratting then you'll not get ganked.  You watch the intel channels and get warning 9 times out of 10.  You keep an eye on local for the rest.

I run my own mining operation with several alts in the belt at once.  I'm right out on the very edge of our space, but I've not yet (touch wood) been caught, and I've made billions.

[Phildo]

I've only been ganked while ratting twice, and both times were my own fault.  Particularly the first, where I decided after waiting for approximately five minutes to burn to a nearby station system.  The bad guys were waiting for me on the way, of course.  This was before I knew that you could log off safely at a POS 

And ratting/mining in 0.0 is far safer and more lucrative than in lowsec.

[TheWalrus]

I'm skilling up a fighter right now but I'm not happy with progression enough to invite myself back into BAT. I fucked up Orday enough that I didn't feel like letting him cruise around in his rupture looking like a tard. I've been messing around with a miner and believe it or not, it's kind of fun. Once my pvp gal gets up to speed, I'll be using her pretty much full time. Till then, gluck.

[Comstar]

Well I'm in. Suprirsed it was only a 100meg update considering I last played 8 months ago. Someone needs to approve my goonfleet fourm application, and I'm done.

[apocrypha]

OK, if the resub urge hits me again (although that's less likely now that I'm not gonna have finished some cool skill in the meantime) I'll give you a shout Endie :)

[Endie]

I'm skilling up a fighter right now but I'm not happy with progression enough to invite myself back into BAT. I fucked up Orday enough that I didn't feel like letting him cruise around in his rupture looking like a tard. I've been messing around with a miner and believe it or not, it's kind of fun. Once my pvp gal gets up to speed, I'll be using her pretty much full time. Till then, gluck.

Post your skillset in the Eve Online forums.  Given that a newbie character is only a month away from flying a good battleship or battlecruiser, it's unlikely that you're more than days away from something effective.

Also, we're in Goonfleet: nobody is going to check your skills or complain about what you're flying*.  We're resolutely not elitist.

*except laser moas.  You will be mocked for flying laser moas.

[Endie]

This picture is from an anzac-timezone op this morning.  I thought it looked pretty.



That's a Naglfar-class dreadnought, by the way.  The two nearby ships below and left of it give an idea of the variations in scale involved.

[Phildo]

My megathron is nearby, somewhere off-screen.  This is an awesome op.  We killed some BoB pets and got to listen to erotic Harry Potter fanfiction read by Australians.

Edit: This op concluded with killing the tower and just enough time to dock up right as the server was shutting down.  Also got on an assault frigate killmail and the support in our gang killed some interceptors.  Quite succesful.

[eldaec]

More spaceship porn of f13/bat/alliance operations.

[Sunbury]

Just idle curiosity, I've looked at a lot of screenshots, even some movies, but I still can't tell:

1) When you see the suns, planets, (not the mini-asteroids), and the fields of luminous gas in the background, is that just painted on the backdrop, or are those things actually there, and you can fly around/through them?

2) Is a zone a box or a sphere?  What happens when you come to the edge, or is there no edge?  (I assume its not a plane with a limited z-axis.).

3) At the grand-map level, is it just 2-dimensional, but really its just a connection of nodes?  I assume its not continuous space, or is it, where you can 'zone' anywhere?

[Endie]

Just idle curiosity, I've looked at a lot of screenshots, even some movies, but I still can't tell:

1) When you see the suns, planets, (not the mini-asteroids), and the fields of luminous gas in the background, is that just painted on the backdrop, or are those things actually there, and you can fly around/through them?

The suns, planets, moons etc are all there to be warped to, and are useful in a lot of strategic and tactical situations, like getting to an enemy position while avoiding their defences ("bubbles" that pull you out of warp, for instance).

2) Is a zone a box or a sphere?  What happens when you come to the edge, or is there no edge?  (I assume its not a plane with a limited z-axis.).

Zones, or "Grids" are usually very large, although they can vary a little.  In Kheram, there are two stations almost 100,000km apart, but on the same grid.  A rarely-used grid on a gate in deep 0.0 might only be 400km across (or, rarely, less).  The shape can vary.  There are a couple of uses for just-off-grid spots, but they are rare.

3) At the grand-map level, is it just 2-dimensional, but really its just a connection of nodes?  I assume its not continuous space, or is it, where you can 'zone' anywhere?

You can start flying in any direction you like.  But given that, even at 30km/s (you can just get a ship to that sort of level or above at huge expense) it would take you millions of years to get from one star to another, so I doubt it matters on that level.

If, however, you mean to ask if you could fly from one planet to another, or to one of its moons under impulse power, then yes, if you really want to then you can.  And warping really moves you through the intervening space, which you can use to check for people hiding in safe-spots between celestial bodies if they are careless in creating them.

[Jayce]

To add a little to Endie's answer, the only "zoning" takes place between systems, by using jumpgates.  A system is massive amounts of continuous space that it would take the aforementioned years (of real time) to fly through without using warp.

The system is a sphere, so there is plenty of z-axis.  Many systems have planets off the plane with others that you can fly to.  You can of course fly any direction at subwarp speed.

Regarding the rings and nebulae of luminous gas, those are backdrop.  There's probably 10 of them in total.  They repeat quite often from system to system, but you ignore them after a while.

[Sunbury]

Thanks, so each system is a HUGE sphere, with planets and asteroids inside of it.

To get between systems you use the gates.   And the universe has a large number of systems.

But if you gate in, and just fly 'up', do you it an invisible wall eventually?  (But since its huge, no one has gotten that far?)

[bhodi]

You won't; because of how the eve backend works, when you move out of a zone, that is to say normal space where you can see things, it dynamically creates another one in front of you.

Imagine you're in a huge cube, called a grid in eve terms, and you can see everything in that cube. Most cubes are around objects that you'd want to go to, gates, planets, stations, that sort of thing. If you move out of that cube, another one is created directly ahead you just move into it, leaving the other behind. People can enter the one you made that's adjacent, in the same way you did, or they can enter it in other ways (there are methods of warping to you, and so if people find you, they end up on your grid). No one can see across cube/grid boundaries, but they are large enough that it's not generally a problem. It takes all but the fastest ships a minute or two to get to the edge of a grid, and battles are generally fought at the center of grids around objects (stargates, stations, that sort)

[Sunbury]

Thanks, I think I get it now, it sounds a lot better than I thought it was.  I assumed invisible impassible walls since that's the trend in most games nowadays.

[Murgos]

Thanks, I think I get it now, it sounds a lot better than I thought it was.  I assumed invisible impassible walls since that's the trend in most games nowadays.

Forget 30 km/s most ships move at less than 500 m/s, many at less than 100 m/s (~223 mph or the speed of a NASCAR racer).  So, if a typical grid is a few thousand km across, well, there may not be invisible zone walls but pretty much nobody actually tries to fly off grid unless they are setting up safe spots.

Zone wall or not zone wall, you still don't go there is what I am trying to say.

[Rasix]

Some of my inspirational posters created during my time with Bat Country in EVE:





Granted these were taken before the first 0.0 foray and I believe before the last recruitement drive.   Guys got serious since then.

[Sir T]

No thanks. That "game" fucked my life more than it was already, and I didn't even get the satisfaction of getting much fun from it.

At least I learned something about editing videos from frapsing.

I have Carrier level 5. Never flew a Capital ship in combat. Nuff said.

[Ghambit]

I resubbed... found myself in Delve space with an underskilled clone and an uninsured Dominix (revoked).  Cant upgrade or change anything since I cant gain access to the offices here. :(

I love my Dom... wonder If I can make it 12 jumps through BoB space w/o dying :)

[Slayerik]

think your best bet is to put the domi on the market and pod run it home, hell maybe ask for an escort .... hate to lose SP

[Phildo]

Defintely sell the domi.  Buy a shuttle and make a run for it.

[Jayce]

Defintely sell the domi.  Buy a shuttle and make a run for it.

Shuttles are amazingly survivable, unless you hit a bubble camp.  I PvP'd in one all night one night, providing intel.

[Fordel]

Thanks, I think I get it now, it sounds a lot better than I thought it was.  I assumed invisible impassible walls since that's the trend in most games nowadays.

Just to echo the others, if EVE gets one thing truly right, its the sense that you really are in fucking SPACE. It's God Damn ridiculously huge mother fucking SPACE.

You can really fly around and get the sense that you really are in a infinite and endless environment.


Of course, that's arguably as bad as it is good.

[Endie]

I resubbed... found myself in Delve space with an underskilled clone and an uninsured Dominix (revoked).  Cant upgrade or change anything since I cant gain access to the offices here. :(

I love my Dom... wonder If I can make it 12 jumps through BoB space w/o dying :)

Do you have a jump clone?

If not, you could try petitioning, but the shuttle idea is a good one.  Otherwise, if you can use a cloak then something like a stabber with a cloak, an mwd and the lows fitted with wcs and nanos will get you through even many bubble camps.