Star Trek

[Broughden]

Good.  I hope this is used as an excuse to reboot the entire franchise in future TV series, movies, etc.  Ditch the Federation, make Earth and Vulcan enemies (cold logicians who believe emotional races should be destroyed, etc) and make all the other races cranky and Star Warsy.  Every Star Trek since the TOS could be named "The Democratic Senate Caucus Tries To Find A Way To Peacefully Resolve Things But Then Is Forced To Defend Itself With Plucky Human Ingenuity: The Series."

Just turn it into the Starfleet Battles universe...

Better idea: Turn it into what the Federation should really be like with the technology they've got i.e. The Culture.
Also, Ironwood is as wrong as it is humanly possible to be about DS9, even though it's only a copy of B5.

No he's not.

DS9 sucked monkey balls.

[Riggswolfe]

Who doesn't like mutant, vampire, time-traveling, space Nazis?

*raises hand* Can I watch a show with those? It sounds kind of cool! At least if it's not Star Trek.

[shiznitz]

DS9 sucked monkey balls.

This.

[Tannhauser]

Overall I didn't like DS9 either.  It's not Star Trek.  It's not.  Star.  Trek.  A journey thru the stars. Star Trek is about going out there and making contact; in Kirk's case it's either by fist or penis but I digress.

DS9 should have been called Federation Flophouse.  Hey!   Guess who's visiting the flophouse this week!  It looks like Klingons!
They had some good episodes, particularly dealing with the big Dominion War, but it was too passive.

[stray]

And Voyager WAS Star Trek in a way that not even TNG was. Same with Enterprise. Didn't help them either.


Personally though, I could care less about Star Trek. I think I just like Space Bar type of shit. Sci-fi civilian shit. Space smuggler stories too. DS9 had a good deal of this type of writing. I've said before that Futurama is my favorite sci-fi series.. And I like Buck Rogers too. Hah. More shows like that please.

[FatuousTwat]

I think one of the problems with DS9 and Enterprise was they went away from each episode being pretty much separate from all other episodes.

With TNG, someone who hadn't watched it before could watch an episode towards the end of the series, and know wtf was going on. Not so much since then (I don't mention TOS because I don't care for it and really don't watch it).

It effects pretty much all TV these days unfortunately. I don't like being shackled into watching every single fucking episode, whether they be good or bad, in order to understand what is going on. It's why I never bothered finishing BSG. I missed a couple of episodes and had no way of watching them unless I dl'd them. I guess that might also be one of the reasons why I prefer Stargate SG1 over Atlantis.

[Ratman_tf]

Overall I didn't like DS9 either.  It's not Star Trek.  It's not.  Star.  Trek.  A journey thru the stars. Star Trek is about going out there and making contact; in Kirk's case it's either by fist or penis but I digress.

DS9 should have been called Federation Flophouse.  Hey!   Guess who's visiting the flophouse this week!  It looks like Klingons!
They had some good episodes, particularly dealing with the big Dominion War, but it was too passive.

That's a supid argument, and you should feel bad for using it.

[Reg]

From what I can see the guys who hated DS9 so much don't really seem to have liked any Star Trek at all since Next Gen. I suspect that Star Trek just isn't for them anymore.

[Tannhauser]

Overall I didn't like DS9 either.  It's not Star Trek.  It's not.  Star.  Trek.  A journey thru the stars. Star Trek is about going out there and making contact; in Kirk's case it's either by fist or penis but I digress.

DS9 should have been called Federation Flophouse.  Hey!   Guess who's visiting the flophouse this week!  It looks like Klingons!
They had some good episodes, particularly dealing with the big Dominion War, but it was too passive.

That's a supid argument, and you should feel bad for using it.

On the other hand, your counter-argument made some very valid and insightful points.

Oh wait...

[Ratman_tf]

Overall I didn't like DS9 either.  It's not Star Trek.  It's not.  Star.  Trek.  A journey thru the stars. Star Trek is about going out there and making contact; in Kirk's case it's either by fist or penis but I digress.

DS9 should have been called Federation Flophouse.  Hey!   Guess who's visiting the flophouse this week!  It looks like Klingons!
They had some good episodes, particularly dealing with the big Dominion War, but it was too passive.

That's a supid argument, and you should feel bad for using it.

On the other hand, your counter-argument made some very valid and insightful points.

Oh wait...

C'mon man! You can dislike the format but "It's not Star Trek because they're not trekking through the stars!" really misses the point. Not a few of us liked the series and liked the stories they told.

[WindupAtheist]

Original > DS9 > TNG > Enterprise > Voyager

"But Star Trek is supposed to be about trekking through the staaaars, exploring and meeting alien races that look like humans with bumpy heads, and making contact with them in ways that transparently ape contemporary political issues!"

Bah, my ass. Original Trek succeeded as a sci-fi adventure show about Kirk the two-fisted space pimp and his loyal crew, and succeeded because it was a fun show with good characters and generally pretty good writing. DS9 was uneven, but overall successful for the same reasons. Both shows were willing and able to work in some humor, DS9 in particular with stuff like Bashir and Garak getting stuck in Bashir's cheesy James Bond holodeck fantasy. I love that episode. TNG was some kind of transgendered vegetarian politically correct castrated version of original Trek, and the other two were just incoherent garbage.

[Samwise]

DS9 in particular with stuff like Bashir and Garak getting stuck in Bashir's cheesy James Bond holodeck fantasy. I love that episode.

I think that one was an homage to the early TNG episode where Picard, Crusher, and Data get stuck in Picard's cheesy Maltese Falcon holodeck fantasy.  Also one of my favorites.

[Ratman_tf]

DS9 in particular with stuff like Bashir and Garak getting stuck in Bashir's cheesy James Bond holodeck fantasy. I love that episode.

I think that one was an homage to the early TNG episode where Picard, Crusher, and Data get stuck in Picard's cheesy Maltese Falcon holodeck fantasy.  Also one of my favorites.

Man, it's hard to concentrate now. Your avatar keeps giving me a boner.

[stray]

Although Garak and Dukat were my favorite characters, my favorite episode is when Quark and his brother accidentally traveled back in time and crashed on earth, circa 1948 -- in Roswell, New Mexico. Heh

[Samwise]

Man, it's hard to concentrate now. Your avatar keeps giving me a boner.

Enjoy the season while it lasts, there's only one day left.   

[Ratman_tf]

Man, it's hard to concentrate now. Your avatar keeps giving me a boner.

Enjoy the season while it lasts, there's only one day left.   

I am mildly curious. What's the occasion? (And is there a larger version of that pic...)

[Samwise]

It's an obscure Christian holiday that lasts twelve days.  You probably haven't heard of it.

[Triforcer]

TOS wasn't immune from the occasional heavyhanded political message.  I seem to remember an episode where aliens with black and white faces (but reversed from each other!) destroyed each other in a civil war.   The difference is that Kirk actually seemed like a badass, whereas every other captain was a Democratic U.S. Senator.    

[Rasix]

I think you just insulted Picard.  Wake up, TIME TO DIE.

[Triforcer]

TNG was a good show.  Picard did what he was supposed to do well.  But at the end of the day, he was still the senior U.S. Senator from someplace like Delaware. 

[stray]

Actually, Janeway was probably insane. Where Kirk duped someone for the (hundredth) time that he was going to self-destruct his ship to gain an advantage, Janeway would actually press the button. She did that multiple times.. Not to mention diving into things many times just on gusto, without a plan (hell, the entire show's premise is built on that).

[Ironwood]

It's an obscure Christian holiday that lasts twelve days.  You probably haven't heard of it.

I noticed fairly early you were doing this again (and properly this time !).  As I mentioned last year, I'm impressed.

 

[FatuousTwat]

Actually, Janeway was probably insane. Where Kirk duped someone for the (hundredth) time that he was going to self-destruct his ship to gain an advantage, Janeway would actually press the button. She did that multiple times.. Not to mention diving into things many times just on gusto, without a plan (hell, the entire show's premise is built on that).

She is the absolute worst captain of any of the shows. Only Tuvok and the indian guy (not gonna try to spell it) kept her from fucking up constantly.

[Tebonas]

To be fair to the other captains, Sisko became increasingly badass through the series, up to a highpoint where he actually incited Garak to assassinate Romulans to draw them into a war on the Federations side.

Actually poisoning a planet to draw the bad guy out of hiding wasn't that weak and accommodating either.

[Merusk]

TOS wasn't immune from the occasional heavyhanded political message.  I seem to remember an episode where aliens with black and white faces (but reversed from each other!) destroyed each other in a civil war.   The difference is that Kirk actually seemed like a badass, whereas every other captain was a Democratic U.S. Senator.    

Hey, guess what.  TOS was CONCEIVED to push heavy-handed liberal political messages.  "All races" and a RUSSIAN on a ship?  An interracial kiss? Zomg, fucking liberals messing with our kids minds in the 60's!  In some interview (I think it was shown in "How Star Trek changed the world") Nichelle Nichols relates how she called Roddenberry on it one day and he conceded but said "keep it between us or they won't let me continue," or somesuch.

[Riggswolfe]

From what I can see the guys who hated DS9 so much don't really seem to have liked any Star Trek at all since Next Gen. I suspect that Star Trek just isn't for them anymore.

That's because Star Trek got progressively worse after TNG. Sorry, but it did. Rick Berman (I think that's his name) pretty much destroyed the house that Rodenberry built. To make it clear, it's not that Star Trek isn't for us anymore, it's that Star Trek become the anti-matter to good television's matter.

[stray]

Voy and DS9 succeeded in lasting the same length of time, and had as many high points and low points as TNG.. In the end, it's all basically the same to me on a dramatic level. Trying to proclaim anymore than that, like what was more closer to this "ideal" view of whatever the fuck the "Star Trek" is and isn't supposed to be is way beyond my limits. There's a general idea, sure -- and they all kept to it. Other than that, I'm just looking to be entertained... on the simplest level.

[edit]

By the way, all of you are too (just wanting to be entertained, I mean).. At least when you didn't let dumb shit like that get in your way. I mean, I could transfer stories from various Voyager or DS9 episodes, and put them in another setting -- and you'd fucking eat them up.

[Merusk]

Voyager had high points?  Really?  I'm asking because I couldn't even stomach the first half season and gave up on it then.  I was amazed it lasted as long as it did.  More surprising to me was that I enjoyed Enterprise (with some very obvious missteps on their part) and hated Voyager so strongly.

[stray]

Pretty much everything that focused on the Doctor was a high point.

[edit] Oh yeah, there was one story arc where these "Predator" type of hunter dudes had a clash with the Voyager crew. Janeway finally came to a truce, and offered them holodeck technology where they could channel their sport into that (it's a little more complex than that, but that's basically what it came down to).

It got cool many episodes later when they ran into them again, and it turned out that they had been leaving their holo technology on the whole time -- and the holo characters became sentient and started a rebellion. Then Janeway was in the thick of it, confused on whether to help the hunters or the holos. The actors who played the holos were all based on Alpha quadrant races too, so you had Klingons and Romulans working together -- their leader was religious, a Bajoran (he knew he was a hologram, but he still believed in Bajoran religion.. and that was the reason why he was such a forceful personality in the first place).

Anyways, it was pretty original, I think.

[Murgos]

Voyager would have been great if it had a 90% different cast and 50% different writers.  The basic premise was fine though.

[Ratman_tf]

Aside from the easy watching factor, where I could turn my brain off after working overtime and just stare at Voyager until I dropped off to sleep, and not worry that I was going to miss anything interesting... there were a handful of episodes that weren't total shite.

My favorite is the planet that was in a pocket of time that was sped up. After entering orbit, Voyager couldn't pull away without mucking up the planet, and didn't have enough power to make a sure getaway anyway. So they remained in orbit for a few days, which translated to thousands and thousands of years down on the time planet. With Voyager observable from the surface. And the inhabitants had some interesting reactions to a starship in orbit that didn't seem to do much of anything for thousands of years.

[Riggswolfe]

Voy and DS9 succeeded in lasting the same length of time, and had as many high points and low points as TNG..

This is where your argument falls apart for me. TNG had say 70% good episodes, 20% meh episodes and 10% awful episodes. These other two series? They reversed that breakdown. BTW, the numbers are purely made up, it boils down to: TNG good>bad Voy,DS9 bad>good and Enterprise? All bad. It had the hottest actress ever in Star Trek and Sam and I still couldn't make it past the first season!

[Reg]

Golly. There's just no way I'd even try to argue with those hard stats you're quoting. I'm too intimidated now to even ask for the source of them much less their methodology.

[Riggswolfe]

Golly. There's just no way I'd even try to argue with those hard stats you're quoting. I'm too intimidated now to even ask for the source of them much less their methodology.

Jesus...

BTW, the numbers are purely made up, it boils down to: TNG good>bad Voy,DS9 bad>good and Enterprise? All bad.

You fail at reading.

[Reg]

You fail at reading.

Ha you got me. Your post just made my eyes roll so hard I must have missed that sentence.

In any case, you're obviously one of those guys that hasn't liked Trek in a good twenty years.  You  just don't like it anymore. It's ok. Tastes change.