Known Exploits?

[Vinadil]

Recently our guild has made the frontpage on our server with a few folks claiming we are exploiting game mechanics.  It is a strange case to make since so far I have not seen Mythic take a stand on any of the issues that are being raised.  I suppose this might be yet another little reason that having your own forums is nice.  My question is, do any of you guys know of a place where they have posted what they consider to be exploits?

The one's in question are:

1. Killing a Keep Lord on the balcony instead of in his main room.

2. Using Magus/Engineer "pull" ability to pull people through doors.

[Khaldun]

I think you're supposed to send questions like this to "Dear Abby" or "The Ethicist" first before posting them to online forums.

[kildorn]

Personally, I consider both exploits, though only #2 being really bad.

Reasons:

1) Killing a lord on the balcony was done to keep everything from linking. It's obviously not intended for small pulls of the lord room mobs to be possible. It's less the balcony and more the not-every-monster-coming thing.

2) Dude, you're pulling players through an LOS block and movement blocking terrain feature. This one should be pretty obviously a bug.

[FatuousTwat]

Every single post of mine is filtered through Dear Abby. Including this one. I have one of those red phones with no number-pad on them, linking her and I.

[Khaldun]

The balcony thing doesn't work anyway, from what I can see--the champs sometimes come too, the keep lord will rubberband, and the lord and champs also sometimes go through the walls back and forth out of the balcony.

[Vinadil]

The specifics are not nearly so important as the more general, "Has anyone seen Mythic make posts about exploits or issues in game".  I browse WHA, and now I read that at least Mark won't be posting there.  Honestly I rarely move out of my server forums, and even that is a stretch.

I suppose I am taking the lazy-man's way to see if anyone else has stumbled across any sort of official posts about "broken" or "working as intended" types of game mechanics.

[Khaldun]

I haven't seen any. I hate to keep harping on this issue, but seriously, this is why not having official forums is a very bad thing. When you need to know, "Do the devs know about these issues, or care about them", it's a lot harder to figure it out. And sometimes you do need to know. At least for me, getting hit through walls by an engineer turret during a keep defense is really damn annoying, as is getting chased through walls by a white lion or being unable to *hold* a champ or lord from ghosting back into the main room through a wall.

Mobs go through walls in regular PvE as well, and it is especially aggravating that they do so, as they often regen full health if they flee through a wall where you cannot go and you cannot damage them.

[Tmon]

Near as I can tell Mythic rarely says "That's an exploit stop it."  It seems like their style is to drop a hotfix on stuff and then post that they changed x because it wasn't working correctly.

[Erdrick]

Someone in our guild was reported and "warned" for pulling people through doors. They basically said that it was not intended to be used that way and the continual use of it in such a fashion was indeed an exploit.

[NiX]

Someone in our guild was reported and "warned" for pulling people through doors. They basically said that it was not intended to be used that way and the continual use of it in such a fashion was indeed an exploit.

Common sense would dictate that it was a bug. Being told just means the person is just that stupid.

[Erdrick]

Common sense would dictate that it was a bug. Being told just means the person is just that stupid.

I agree 100%, I told the guy he was playing with fire but he didn't seem to care. He's just lucky he didn't get banned for it. The only reason I posted it is that it seems the poster is looking for some sort of confirmed word from Mythic, so I posted one.

[Venkman]

This.

If it doesn't feel right, you're playing with fire. Yes, it's easy to hide behind the lack of official rules/statements made about it. As long as you feel confident you'll get a friendly GM, you'll be fine 

[rk47]

Dmg/KB AoE Through Siege Door is annoying enough that I don't really give a shit about fair play anymore.

[Khaldun]

At least on T3 (and I think T4) keep sieges, damage through keep doors from turrets, pets and AOEs is vastly more dangerous and damaging than oil or ranged attacks from above. This alone kind of ruins sieges for me. I have no idea if Mythic intends to deal with it--haven't seen any statements about it.

[squirrel]

I think that #2 particularly is not "fair play" but an exploit? Not yet. This again is where Mythic needs to step up their communication pipeline. Nothing is an exploit until the team says "Hey, that's not how it's supposed to work and using it in that manner is an exploit." At that point it's bannable and reportable. Until then, it's asshattery, but not 'illegal'.

[Righ]

An exploit is an exploit whether or not its illegal. You can break into a buggy and unpatched Unix server from certain countries that do not have cyber-crime legislation and its not illegal. You're still exploiting vulnerabilities in the software. Likewise, when you abuse the unintended consequences of something in a game, you are exploiting. People don't like it, and since these are community collaborative games, you're hurting the community and your position in it. Why would you try and defend your position by saying "the developers haven't called it out yet"?

[squirrel]

An exploit is an exploit whether or not its illegal. You can break into a buggy and unpatched Unix server from certain countries that do not have cyber-crime legislation and its not illegal. You're still exploiting vulnerabilities in the software. Likewise, when you abuse the unintended consequences of something in a game, you are exploiting. People don't like it, and since these are community collaborative games, you're hurting the community and your position in it. Why would you try and defend your position by saying "the developers haven't called it out yet"?

Because unlike your example where it's clear that the owner of that software does not want you acting in that fashion, it's not clear here. Perhaps Magus/Engineers were designed to perform this very function. How do you know? You don't. Only Mythic does. And until they say it's an exploit people will do it. I'm not defending it - I specifically called people doing it asshats. But you don't know that it's not by design - although we may suspect it's not. In that case it needs explicit clarification.

[Threash]

The specifics are not nearly so important as the more general, "Has anyone seen Mythic make posts about exploits or issues in game".  I browse WHA, and now I read that at least Mark won't be posting there.  Honestly I rarely move out of my server forums, and even that is a stretch.

I suppose I am taking the lazy-man's way to see if anyone else has stumbled across any sort of official posts about "broken" or "working as intended" types of game mechanics.

I don't understand why you'd need this or any other confirmation whatsoever than pulling people through doors is indeed an exploit.  Of course it fucking is, dont be a moron.  How could that possibly even be a question?

[Nebu]

My take on the whole exploit thing is this: 

PvE: Who cares?  Really.  If people have found a way to level at a rate that is faster than normal, more power to them.  If they feel a need to use a broken mechanic to bypass normal gameplay then perhaps this is a red flag that normal gameplay requires incentive/fun adjustments.  Noone really cared much about pve exploits in DAoC because the game was built around rvr.  Ultimately realm rank will matter FAR more than xp. 

PvP: This is serious.  WAR depends on the integrity of its pvp play.  If the playerbase can find readily available exploits (particularly with lag generation or location displacement) then these things should be priority one. 

[Merusk]

The specifics are not nearly so important as the more general, "Has anyone seen Mythic make posts about exploits or issues in game".  I browse WHA, and now I read that at least Mark won't be posting there.  Honestly I rarely move out of my server forums, and even that is a stretch.

I suppose I am taking the lazy-man's way to see if anyone else has stumbled across any sort of official posts about "broken" or "working as intended" types of game mechanics.

I don't understand why you'd need this or any other confirmation whatsoever than pulling people through doors is indeed an exploit.  Of course it fucking is, dont be a moron.  How could that possibly even be a question?

The logic train on this one is "Exploits get you banned.  If it's not going to get me banned because the company called it an exploit it's a legitimate tactic, even if it's clearly against the spirit and mechanics of every single other part of the game."

[Lantyssa]

My take on the whole exploit thing is this: 

PvE: Who cares?  Really.  If people have found a way to level at a rate that is faster than normal, more power to them.  If they feel a need to use a broken mechanic to bypass normal gameplay then perhaps this is a red flag that normal gameplay requires incentive/fun adjustments.  Noone really cared much about pve exploits in DAoC because the game was built around rvr.  Ultimately realm rank will matter FAR more than xp. 

PvP: This is serious.  WAR depends on the integrity of its pvp play.  If the playerbase can find readily available exploits (particularly with lag generation or location displacement) then these things should be priority one. 

Most people, if willing to do one, are unable to see the difference with doing the other.  It either is or isn't okay.  So giving them leeway pretty much ensures they don't care when it comes to the part of the game which matters most.

[Evildrider]

As an aside there seems to be a bit of a gentlemans agreement on Ulthulan to not use magnets/rifts on the keep doors like that anymore.  At least it hasn't been used in the last couple days for the t4 stuff I've been doing.

Those skills need to be rebalanced and that whole thing fixed though.  It really kills some of the fun of rvr.

[Vinadil]

An exploit is an exploit whether or not its illegal. You can break into a buggy and unpatched Unix server from certain countries that do not have cyber-crime legislation and its not illegal. You're still exploiting vulnerabilities in the software. Likewise, when you abuse the unintended consequences of something in a game, you are exploiting. People don't like it, and since these are community collaborative games, you're hurting the community and your position in it. Why would you try and defend your position by saying "the developers haven't called it out yet"?

Because unlike your example where it's clear that the owner of that software does not want you acting in that fashion, it's not clear here. Perhaps Magus/Engineers were designed to perform this very function. How do you know? You don't. Only Mythic does. And until they say it's an exploit people will do it. I'm not defending it - I specifically called people doing it asshats. But you don't know that it's not by design - although we may suspect it's not. In that case it needs explicit clarification.

This.  Since every other AoE ability functions just fine through doors, floors, ceilings, etc.  It is hard to just assume that the Magus/Engy ones are broken.  Sure its wierd... but so is getting hit by sorceresses from behind a wall.

[chanss]

Recently our guild has made the frontpage on our server with a few folks claiming we are exploiting game mechanics.  It is a strange case to make since so far I have not seen Mythic take a stand on any of the issues that are being raised.  I suppose this might be yet another little reason that having your own forums is nice.  My question is, do any of you guys know of a place where they have posted what they consider to be exploits?

The one's in question are:

1. Killing a Keep Lord on the balcony instead of in his main room.

2. Using Magus/Engineer "pull" ability to pull people through doors.

Number 1 is a valid tactic, all keeps i have been along taking has been done this way. Dont see anything wrong here actually.

Number 2 Mythic should fix pronto. Cheasy stuff!

[Righ]

Because unlike your example where it's clear that the owner of that software does not want you acting in that fashion, it's not clear here. Perhaps Magus/Engineers were designed to perform this very function. How do you know?

Common sense. Mythic didn't spend months designing keeps with choke points that needed sieged and which could be defended using oil while intending to make all their work pointless because they wanted people pulling each other back and forth through the walls and window-dragging their way past anything that slowed them down.

However, if you're dim-witted enough to think that they did and need clarification, just read reply #8 again.

[squirrel]

Because unlike your example where it's clear that the owner of that software does not want you acting in that fashion, it's not clear here. Perhaps Magus/Engineers were designed to perform this very function. How do you know?

Common sense. Mythic didn't spend months designing keeps with choke points that needed sieged and which could be defended using oil while intending to make all their work pointless because they wanted people pulling each other back and forth through the walls and window-dragging their way past anything that slowed them down.

However, if you're dim-witted enough to think that they did and need clarification, just read reply #8 again.

Sigh. You don't get it. I understand this. But without clarification people are going to keep doing it and saying it's fine. And you can't argue with them because:

a). It's possible to do until it gets fixed
b). Mythic hasn't said "don't do that".

Or are you really relying on the integrity of your average MMORPG player to 'play fair'? Really?

[Righ]

Apparently (see reply #8) your point (b) is wrong.

Vinadil, I think he just called you average.

[squirrel]

Near as I can tell Mythic rarely says "That's an exploit stop it."  It seems like their style is to drop a hotfix on stuff and then post that they changed x because it wasn't working correctly.

This is what your referencing Righ.

Read my point a). again thanks. When it's fixed - point b). ceases to exist.


EDIT: If instead you meant:

Someone in our guild was reported and "warned" for pulling people through doors. They basically said that it was not intended to be used that way and the continual use of it in such a fashion was indeed an exploit.

Then, umm, whatever. Someone's brother my friend knows said that you may get warned but only on a Thursday. Hardly conclusive. A simple Herald update saying "this is not allowed, stop it." Then ban away! Then fix it.

[Khaldun]

I can't stress enough that you only have a very short window to intervene in these kinds of things, both with code fixes and/or with official statements about what is or is not an exploit. Devs who wait months to get around to these things then come up against a hardened kind of expectation, practices of play that have adapted to the "exploit", and changing those is often really disruptive.

[Vinadil]

It's ok... after people get a taste of more Open field RVR hopefully they will avoid Keeps altogether.  Last night we had a blast with a couple of Electro Engies vs a few Magus' out in the open field.  It was like watching popcorn PVP as people bounced all over.  Fun stuff, much more fun than banging on a wall while Squigs magically appear through the wall and fireballs from Magus pets hit you wherever you run.

[Arkenor]

Recently our guild has made the frontpage on our server with a few folks claiming we are exploiting game mechanics.  It is a strange case to make since so far I have not seen Mythic take a stand on any of the issues that are being raised.  I suppose this might be yet another little reason that having your own forums is nice.  My question is, do any of you guys know of a place where they have posted what they consider to be exploits?

The one's in question are:

1. Killing a Keep Lord on the balcony instead of in his main room.

2. Using Magus/Engineer "pull" ability to pull people through doors.

I'm not high level enough to have encountered 2, but every almost Keep Attack I have taken part in has attempted to use the technique you describe. I do try to persuade them that it is actually possible to just fight and win in the Lord's room, but somehow folks have gotten it into their head that fiddling around with safe zones, balconies, and rubberbanding is the one true way.

So, if it is an exploit, it's one that everyone on my server is using. It's not particularly heroic or exciting, and I hope the mechanics of Keep encounters are changed so that it is no longer possible. (Ideally without just making the Keep Lords even more powerful.). Maybe sticking a few rapidly respawning regular troops in the "safe zone" would discourage it.

[Xurtan]

Having more regular guards spawning is a slippery slope to some degree I think. Keep Sieges are already having problems with massive lag and crashes, not to mention if the opposing forces have anywhere near an even amount of players, it is nigh impossible to get into the Lord room. Adding possibly more lag, and having even more mobs beating on people as they try to overwhelm the defending force..

Not to mention with our luck they would probably warp to the bottom floor or through walls or something; more bugs, wee!

Personally I think they just need to fix it; if they don't want the Lord dragged, make it so he and his cohorts are one large encounter, that either stick together, or stop at the exits to his room. Or change the encounter entirely; as someone mentioned earlier, have him in the courtyard. Possibly add another room to the keep, a throne room with a third door where people of either side can't get get access to without the door having been broken. That way, theoretically, he and his guards will be in one room, with one exit, and hopefully won't be as buggy. Could also help with two forces fighting, when they have similar numbers. The defensive side won't have the bonus of the Keep Lord and his Champions fighting for them, and will have to rely more on tactics.

 Of course, this is much more complicated than is needed for just fixing him being dragged by his lonesome.

I think engy/magus pulling people through the door is a viable tactic.. assuming it's meant to work that way. You would think it would damage the door or something, having a small army pulled through it and all..

Didn't DAoC have AOEs through walls and the like for years before they fixed it, or am I thinking of something else?

[Ingmar]

You could AE through doors in DAOC; I'm not sure *that* was ever fixed, but they did mess around a lot with walls and LOS.

[Kirth]

You could AE through doors in DAOC; I'm not sure *that* was ever fixed, but they did mess around a lot with walls and LOS.

You can AE through doors in WAR so I'm going to say no.

[Fordel]

Hell I used to make a "Defensive" ram and use that to attack the enemy ram trying to break our keep doors.