Blizzard: Warhammer players already returning to Warcraft

[fuser]

Waiting for

[Arthur_Parker]

But in any case, this sort of thing, properly managed, can be good PR  

Yeah, the same thought struck me.  MJ speaks his mind, that's normally not a great thing but in this case I don't see much of a downside for him.  He's acting as if Blizzard were bang out of order, how do they respond to that?  Any response is more publicity for WAR, it's difficult for them to go the "unprofessional" route now, and the "we got more subs, fool" isn't exactly a secret.

Mythic can make a quite profitable living from Blizzard's table scraps so why not kick up a real fuss?  I wouldn't be surprised if he has a pop at Blizzard's paid character customisation plans next.  The most important thing is obviously fixing the problems with WAR itself, but if players start to pick sides in a flame war, that might make the WAR brand slightly more "sticky" subscription wise to those that don't like Blizzard for whatever reason.

[Tarami]

To John Romero's (I like the guy!) defense, that wasn't actually his idea...

[Soln]

you know they're not Mythic anymore.  EA's a grown up kid.  If there are balance or technical problems, deal with them.  Christ.

[Arthur_Parker]

Linky

EA Mythic Defends ‘Warhammer Online’ From ‘World Of Warcraft’ Designer’s Criticism

Earlier today we published an interview with “World of Warcraft” game director Jeff Kaplan where he shared his thoughts on competing MMORPG “Warhammer Online.”

We reached out to EA Mythic head and lead “Warhammer Online” designer Mark Jacobs to clarify about his company’s beta policies. He responded after the story was published.

In doing so, Jacobs also wanted to respond to some of the comments about “Warhammer Online” that Kaplan had made. Here’s his defense via a phone call to MTV Multiplayer this morning:

– Referring to Kaplan’s mention of the 30-45 minute wait times for battlegrounds (called “Scenarios” in “Warhammer Online”), Jacobs said that “World of Warcraft” also had long queues just to get into the servers to play the game when it first launched in 2004.

– Responding to the user interface similarities, Jacobs said that “World of Warcraft” wasn’t the first game to feature customizable interfaces. While he credited them for polishing it, he also said that it should be pointed out that “World of Warcraft” learned from Sony Online’s “EverQuest” and Mythic’s “Dark Age of Camelot.”

– Jacobs explained that while as developers, they evolve games by learning from each other, many design decisions made for “Warhammer Online” were done consciously to differ from the industry leader: “If you look at ‘Warhammer,’ there were so many points [where] we consciously made the decision not to be like ‘WoW’ and to try to push the envelope. I think you’ll find that if you’re actually going to compare the two products, I would say ‘WoW’ is certainly a more polished game now than ‘Warhammer is — of course they’ve had four years and billions of dollars — but if you look at the innovations in ‘Warhammer,’ you’d be hard-pressed to find as many in ‘WoW.’”

– In the end, Jacobs said that this is only the beginning for “Warhammer Online”: “This is not a sprint; it’s a marathon. We are in this for the long haul and the real test of how great ‘Warhammer’ and ‘WoW’ are will sort themselves out, and that won’t be in the next three months. It’s going to be a lot longer.”

– For now, the Mythic head said that they’re enjoying their current success and see it continuing down the road even past the launch of the “WoW” expansion “Wrath of the Lich King” next month: “In our first three weeks post-launch, we’ve sold more than anyone else. The game stability has been unbelievable and it blows away any other online games. The amount of downtime we’ve had is negligible. The number of crashes we’ve had is almost non-existent. And we’re going to be continuing to be doing a lot for the game over the next six months, or nine months, or six years.”

Obviously both designers have vested interests in their own games. MMO gamers, you’ve now heard from both sides. What do you think of their criticisms?

*Ding Ding* Seconds out, round two.

[Montague]

Someone's ego is a tad too invested in their product. Likewise, I believe it's going to be that much more difficult for necessary changes to be made in a certain someone's game.

Possessed he is with greatness,
And speaks not to himself but with a pride
That quarrels at self-breath. Imagined worth
Holds in his blood such swollen and hot discourse...

[HRose]

In truth MJ is exaggerating.

Kaplan is a competent and nice guy at Blizzard and I read his comments as "innocent" and honest answers to question that were made. At Blizzcon I'm sure they had to go through a million of interviews and probably they were asked a lot of times to give some comments on Warhammer.

I sure like better an easy going attitude than patting each other on the back and the widespread hypocritical attitude of the "politically correct" and "professionalism". Let's see some healthy rivalry. Poke fun at each other just to see some sparkles. And let's also never take this too seriously.

In the end Kaplan only repeated what everyone knows already, those are just the superficial comments from a lead designer who's also merely a gamer.

MJ surely has more important issues to worry about.

[Paelos]

I'm sorry, did you just say Tigole was competent and nice?

Seriously? 

This is the same raging douchebag that designed the absolute clusterfuck that was the content in TBC, right? The guy who brought you overtuned boss fights, shitty pvp, attunements, infinite rep grinds, and group compositions so rigid that it makes him hard just thinking about it?

[HRose]

Between Kalgan and Tigole I take Tigole.

The posts I read of him are well motivated and balanced. While I may disagree on the general direction, he surely pushed the raid game and overall PvE to unprecedented quality levels.

[Righ]

Yeah, likening participating in a public quest that somebody else is doing as griefing was clearly well motivated.

[RUiN 427]

  I wouldn't be surprised if he has a pop at Blizzard's paid character customisation plans next. 

Actually I've been waiting for this, I chose my character features on a crappy computer with low rez settings and didn't realize I picked the "old man face" i'd gladly pay a 1 time fee to change this asshole's face. The paid features are pay only to seperate them from gameplay features and prevent abuse of character changes.

sorry if that was a tangent... back to war

[Ingmar]

I dunno, when I am happily killing some mob in a PQ and someone comes and steals some of MY INFLUENCE OMG it kind of feels a little bit like being griefed. I mean, I understand intellectually that it isn't really, but my initial emotional response is the same. I can see why it would feel like griefing someone to do that.

[Tmon]

I dunno, when I am happily killing some mob in a PQ and someone comes and steals some of MY INFLUENCE OMG it kind of feels a little bit like being griefed. I mean, I understand intellectually that it isn't really, but my initial emotional response is the same. I can see why it would feel like griefing someone to do that.

Kinda like in the early* days of DAoC when any healer that healed you while fighting a mob got some of the kill XP from it for 'assisting' you.  Drive by healing pissed people of to no end.


* maybe the later days too, but I only played the first three months after launch and don't know if/when it was changed.

[lamaros]

MJ just isn't that smart. If you want to get into a fight about something you have to make decent points. If your comback is restricted to "I'm always turning the other cheek. I'm nice and awesome! But:" and then you follow up with "It's not fair for them to be mean", "4 years ago their game had some problems", "in the future we'll be awesome" then you're better off saying nothing and actually being that nice and awesome guy you misguidedly think you are.

You want to get into a bitch fight over this then you assert why your game is better NOW, why your game is more fun NOW, why their game isn't as good NOW.

Which he is not doing.

[Lantyssa]

I don't see how it is "dumping on WAR" when it is an assessment that a large portion of the players feel exactly the same way.  Even better, the key decision makers for the top dog just told you exactly what areas you need do better compete against them.  You can't get better advice than that.

Pointing out all the flaws is fine, well maybe not fine, it's not professional but whatever, from distant memory I think Mythic were guilty of that long ago.  But leaving that aside, there are a couple of minor points that could have been clearer and I'm sure provoked Mark.

Firstly there weren't any server problems at release in Europe.  Then the other guy talks about "griefing" players in a PQ, now correct me if I'm wrong but that's means he's not on a CORE ruleset server doesn't it?  If so he didn't make that clear and "griefing" is one of those trigger words to a potential mmorpg subscriber.  The mention of AOC in the same context as returning subscribers from WAR, the irrelevant (to us players anyway) mention of internal Beta policies for employees.

Lastly it's the day before Mark's big state of the game statement that he's been mentioning for a couple of days. 

Taking it altogether while considering the very real problems that WAR has, I'm not sure what else Blizzard could have done to annoy him more, maybe hire Eldin as a Blizzard community rep?

I fully agree with tazelbain.  The dev didn't say anything a good number of people haven't said, and they're all issues that if fixed would make us stick around.  He wasn't dumping.  He flat out said what he wanted to see improved.  For Mark to take offsense at it is very silly.  And those quotes show he's raging about it instead of thinking about why someone might say those things.

As for the other stuff, he probably played on the US servers.  So that's what he saw.  It is possible to grief in PQs.  A lot of the Dwarf and Greenskin PQs are competative.  Flag yourself and it's quite likely the other side accidentally smacks you at some point.  Or he could not be grouping so he feels sharing the kills takes influence from them.  (I don't know if he felt it was an active role on his part, or something about the design.)

Regardless, he seemed to be asked his opinion of things from playing the game.  That's what he gave.  Had he been asked about how did he see the state of the game from an in-depth analysis it would have been a very different answer.

[UnSub]

MJ just isn't that smart. If you want to get into a fight about something you have to make decent points. If your comback is restricted to "I'm always turning the other cheek. I'm nice and awesome! But:" and then you follow up with "It's not fair for them to be mean", "4 years ago their game had some problems", "in the future we'll be awesome" then you're better off saying nothing and actually being that nice and awesome guy you misguidedly think you are.

You want to get into a bitch fight over this then you assert why your game is better NOW, why your game is more fun NOW, why their game isn't as good NOW.

Which he is not doing.

It's good to see that Mythic can't afford a paid PR person to deal with this, leaving MJ as the only one who can stride forward on the interwebz and defend his product.

If I was a Community Relations / PR person on WAR, this kind of crap would make me quit. The CEO getting into a slap fight with a major competitor, using arguments with all the strength of "NO, YOU!".

Daily I see more and more evidence in WAR that it was developed by people with 5 star drive and 3 star ability. And, oh look, that link also contains Barnett trashing WoW:

"WoW is a work of flawed genius. This means that when you dismantle [it], you can never be too sure if you got the genius or the flaw."

MJ needs to save some of that outrage, methinks.

Right now, WAR isn't even the Monkees to WoW's the Beatles. WAR is on a level much closer to the Archies.

EDIT: I'm also willing to believe that MJ is getting all worked up just for the extra publicity.

[Righ]

WoW is not even slightly the Fab Four. Right now the state of development of MMOGs is roughly akin to two people hitting sticks together in time in a cave.

[Sparky]

Sticks covered in thorns.  And poop.

[Trippy]

Mark said the exact same things about AoC that people are saying about WAR and now he's all huffy about it. He really should just stop talking and concentrate on fixing the game before WotLK launches.

[Azazel]

  I wouldn't be surprised if he has a pop at Blizzard's paid character customisation plans next. 

Actually I've been waiting for this, I chose my character features on a crappy computer with low rez settings and didn't realize I picked the "old man face" i'd gladly pay a 1 time fee to change this asshole's face. The paid features are pay only to seperate them from gameplay features and prevent abuse of character changes.

sorry if that was a tangent... back to war

Likewise, I'd pay a little (not much, but still) to change my Night Elf's Hunter's face. I'd pay even more to change him from an ugly gorilla-proportioned male to a reasonable-looking female. (because all NE males look like arse, while the females look bearable)

[Azazel]

WoW is not even slightly the Fab Four. Right now the state of development of MMOGs is roughly akin to two people hitting sticks together in time in a cave.

Meh. Opinion.

WoW has it's flaws, but it blows every other MMOG out of the water by a long shot. MJ is beginning to remind me a bit of McQuaid. This is not a good thing. I'd hate to see WAR go the way of AoC....

[Sjofn]

Mark Jacobs doesn't get the internet. It's both hilariously endearing and infuriating.

[Arthur_Parker]

I fully agree with tazelbain.  The dev didn't say anything a good number of people haven't said, and they're all issues that if fixed would make us stick around.  He wasn't dumping.  He flat out said what he wanted to see improved.  For Mark to take offsense at it is very silly.  And those quotes show he's raging about it instead of thinking about why someone might say those things.

As for the other stuff, he probably played on the US servers.  So that's what he saw.  It is possible to grief in PQs.  A lot of the Dwarf and Greenskin PQs are competative.  Flag yourself and it's quite likely the other side accidentally smacks you at some point.  Or he could not be grouping so he feels sharing the kills takes influence from them.  (I don't know if he felt it was an active role on his part, or something about the design.)

Regardless, he seemed to be asked his opinion of things from playing the game.  That's what he gave.  Had he been asked about how did he see the state of the game from an in-depth analysis it would have been a very different answer.

It's almost like you didn't read my post, I wasn't saying they were "dumping on WAR", hence my "couple of minor points that could have been clearer" comment.  You explaining what he might have meant about "griefing" when you aren't really sure yourself, or that he might have played US servers, hence his confusion when talking about WAR Europe, when again you aren't really sure, none of that really contradicts what I said, does it?

[Arthur_Parker]

This Just In: Blizzard Beats Up Mark Jacobs, Laughs At His NDA, Takes His Lunch Money

I enjoyed that.

[UnSub]

Everytime MJ speaks, Lum gets weeks worth of material.

[Lantyssa]

It's almost like you didn't read my post, I wasn't saying they were "dumping on WAR", hence my "couple of minor points that could have been clearer" comment.  You explaining what he might have meant about "griefing" when you aren't really sure yourself, or that he might have played US servers, hence his confusion when talking about WAR Europe, when again you aren't really sure, none of that really contradicts what I said, does it?

It could have been clearer, which is why I was filling in some information, but I didn't see anything in there which was particularly antagonizing.  Other than maybe it came from someone who works at Blizzard rather than the thousands of other customers saying the same thing.  I got the impression you felt he was poking the bear.

Maybe Jacobs is too busy not listening to the "vocal minority" on their forums and thinks the BlizDev is contradicting their solid data.  Lum's stuff is amusing.

(My reading comprehension is spotty of late due to external factors, so take it for what it's worth.)

[Bungee]

I don't know why exactly it was this thread, but it really just put the last nail in the coffin of MMOs for me.

EVE was the last MMO that I thought could keep me happy for a while, but failed miserably due to time issues.
I think I'll just go back to fun SP Games with a decent MP mode and console games...

[Arthur_Parker]

It could have been clearer, which is why I was filling in some information, but I didn't see anything in there which was particularly antagonizing.  Other than maybe it came from someone who works at Blizzard rather than the thousands of other customers saying the same thing.  I got the impression you felt he was poking the bear.

Just repeating myself here but anyway.

Saying the same thing as everyone else about WAR is one thing.  Minor points yes, but "thousands of other customers" are not still talking about GOA open beta problems, here's the EU update thread, read for yourself how release went.

So either the Blizzard guy didn't know that the WAR Europe release went fine or he did know and talked about WAR server problems in Europe anyway, without mentioning the key word "Beta".  Which do you think it is?

Again "thousands of other customers" are not talking about "griefing" in PQ's, if they are, please correct me.  We still aren't 100% sure what he means, we have three possible explanations for what he might mean.  The most likely of which involves someone attacking your tagged mob, a faster kill, your ability to loot it faster combined with the loss of part of your influence gain, (as it wasn't a solo kill). 

Now, you certainly could argue that's "griefing", I say "argue", not because I believe a strong case for that being really nasty behaviour could be put forward, but more because I'd really like to read a long detailed rant on that.

[waylander]

Ever since I hit T4 (I'm level 35) I haven't had a queue wait of less than 30 minutes more than 95% of the time. I expect this will go down as more folks get into T4, but its forced me to PVE.  The horrible PVP gear would have forced me to PVE anyway, but I feel much differently about leveling when I'm killing other people than I do when I'm killing 150 of Mob X.

PVE in this game is weak, gear itemization sucks, PQ grinding sucks, and ORVR is still too unrewarding.

How fast they want to get above 500k paid subs depends on how well they fix those core things, and how fast they do it.

[Mrbloodworth]

I dunno, when I am happily killing some mob in a PQ and someone comes and steals some of MY INFLUENCE OMG it kind of feels a little bit like being griefed. I mean, I understand intellectually that it isn't really, but my initial emotional response is the same. I can see why it would feel like griefing someone to do that.

Its not that it is griefing, its that you have been conditioned, to think it is, because it IS in other games.

[HaemishM]

But in any case, this sort of thing, properly managed, can be good PR  

Yeah, the same thought struck me.  MJ speaks his mind, that's normally not a great thing but in this case I don't see much of a downside for him.  He's acting as if Blizzard were bang out of order, how do they respond to that?  Any response is more publicity for WAR, it's difficult for them to go the "unprofessional" route now, and the "we got more subs, fool" isn't exactly a secret.

Nothing creates more page views like a good nerd slapfight. (Almost) no press is bad press when you are trying to woo subscribers.

[Nevermore]

Jacobs is a prima donna.  Is anyone really surprised he'd be throwing internet tantrums?

[Numtini]

I think MJ is making a big mistake. His players are reading his comments. WoW's players aren't reading the alleged attacks. It just makes Mythic look rather unprofessional.

[Brogarn]

Honestly I think in the big picture it's not going to make a lick of difference. Most people who play either game probably won't hear about this or even care if they do.

[slog]

Honestly I think in the big picture it's not going to make a lick of difference. Most people who play either game probably won't hear about this or even care if they do.

Same.  I didn't resub to WAR because of something MJ said.  It was because I didn't like the newbie experience.  Nothing that MJ or anyone else says will change that.