Blizzard: Warhammer players already returning to Warcraft

[Arthur_Parker]

Linky

While a number of World of Warcraft users dropped the widely popular MMO to play EA's recently released Warhammer Online, more than half of those gamers have already returned to Blizzard's market-leader.

That's according to COO Paul Sams, who said the pattern of players leaving and then returning to Warcraft follows that of any major MMO release.

"We've certainly had some of that happen, which is the same thing we experienced with Age of Conan and each time an MMO has come out we've seen some amount of reduction of use," he said in an exclusive interview published today.

"The good news is that we've seen a significant number of people, well over half, that cited Warhammer as their reason for leaving - they've already returned."

Sams said he was surprised that Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning had a rocky start in Europe, but server troubles and registration hiccups are part and parcel of the MMO business.

"It surprises me because Mythic is a very good company and it doesn't surprise me at the same time because it's really hard, what they're trying to do and what we've done," commented Sams.

"We respect those guys over there a lot and certainly wish them well to succeed but having registration troubles, having server troubles, these are things that come with the territory when you're talking about managing a game as big as World of Warcraft or Warhammer or anything like that. So, it's not a surprise because it is really difficult."

It's not just respect for the team that Sams has – he's was keen to point out that if any other game can come close to the success of Warcraft, it's Warhammer Online, a game that has already notched up 750,000 registered users.

"I think Warhammer is best positioned to succeed out of the various products that have come out thus far since World of Warcraft has come out," he offered.

"It seems to be a good game, certainly a great company, Mythic and Mark [Jacobs] over there and his team, they're very, very talented.

"But I think without EA they would have struggled as well, because EA fortunately for them has a lot of money and so they were able to put forward a lot of marketing dollars and were able to support the huge infrastructure that they require for these kinds of games," added Sams.

The full interview with Paul Sams, where he discusses the challenge of MMO start-ups, Blizzard products on consoles and more, can be read here.

Blizzard giving WAR some free publicity.

[Zetor]

I'm sure it has nothing to do with the 3.0 patch "acidentally" being released just a few days before the free WAR month was up. 

(yeah, this was mentioned a few hundred times in other threads, but bears repeating here :p)


-- Z.

[Arthur_Parker]

Another one

Allegedly Blocked From Beta, ‘World Of Warcraft’ Designer Plays ‘Warhammer Online’ Anyway

...

Now that “Warhammer Online” has been out for almost a month, I wondered if Kaplan had gotten a chance to try it. Even though he’s been busy working on “Wrath of the Lich King,” he revealed he has spent a little time with it.

“My character is like level 13 right now, and I’m playing Destruction on a server that’s imbalanced,” he said, referring to the factions in the game. He also said leveling his character has been going a bit slowly. “I’m at the point where I’m thinking about quitting because it feels like the best way to level up is in the battlegrounds,” he explained.

“But it takes me 30 to 45 minutes to get in the battleground queue. And then when I’m not in the queue, I’m trying to do the Public Quests. But I find that I’m either griefing other people in the Public Quests to try to get influence, or that there’s just nobody there.” Kaplan said he’d switch servers but all his friends were on that server. “I just feel like we picked wrong, unknowingly.”

...

I didn't quote it all.

[Venkman]

Oo, snap!

Well, not really. This is a gamer talking about his gamer concerns (valid, btw). But unfortunately when your business card says "Blizzard" and the topic is about the most recent and biggest competitor, things are more muddy.

[squirrel]

Oo, snap!

Well, not really. This is a gamer talking about his gamer concerns (valid, btw). But unfortunately when your business card says "Blizzard" and the topic is about the most recent and biggest competitor, things are more muddy.

No I don't thinks so. He wasn't bashing - just pointing out the reality. If he had said something different from what, oh, 90% of the playerbase is saying then...

[tazelbain]

I figured if WAR wanted to compete with WoW, it would waited until WAR was done.  They didn't so obviously they don't.  I will continue to play WAR because there is nothing else for me, but I am niche.

[Righ]

Sams said he was surprised that Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning had a rocky start in Europe, but server troubles and registration hiccups are part and parcel of the MMO business.

"It surprises me because Mythic is a very good company and it doesn't surprise me at the same time because it's really hard, what they're trying to do and what we've done," commented Sams.

It's not Mythic who were running the European servers, so it shouldn't surprise him because "Mythic is a very good company" it should be fairly obvious that its going to happen because having communication between several corporate entities - GOA, Mythic, EA - in the launch of a major MMOG puts a whole new level of complexity into the picture. I don't think The9 had quite as smooth a time with WoW in China when they launched as Blizzard did (database lag excepted) even though they had a longer time after the initial Blizzard game launch than GOA did with Warhammer.

Still, nearly everybody had a better time than the WoW 3.0 update, though I suspect Blizzard probably set new records for their network volume with that one.

[Tmon]

I figured if WAR wanted to compete with WoW, it would waited until WAR was done.  They didn't so obviously they don't.  I will continue to WAR because there is nothing else for me, but I am niche.

That's me, it's either WAR or nothing, I'm still on the fence about sticking with WAR past the first month end so it may just be nothing. 

[RUiN 427]

J. Allen Brack also had some nice comments in the wired interview...

Wired: Warhammer Online just came out. It's the first MMO since you guys released World of Warcraft four or five years ago that has really had the kind of fan reaction and critical praise to compete with World of Warcraft on, at least, a content level. Does that change how you guys approach the game, or approach your own game anyway?
J. Allen Brack: Um, not really. We are interested in making WoW the most fun game that we can make it and that’s sort of been our philosophy for the last four years, it’s going to continue to be our philosophy. So, as far as Warhammer, I’m excited to see more games come out, I’m a gamer, I love playing games ...
Wired: Have you played it?
Brack: I have a copy. I’m going to play it over Thanksgiving. I haven’t actually played it yet.
Wired: It takes a bit of time to get into.
Brack: Right. We have a couple of people on the team who play it.
Wired: Really? And they aren’t immediately fired for blaspheming against the company?
Brack: No, not at all. Quite the opposite actually.
We’re gamers. We wanna play fun games. So, if it’s a good game and they’re enjoying it, great. We’ve had people play D&D Online, Lord of the Rings Online, Age of Conan -- we’ve got lots of people who play lots of different types of games, both before WoW came out and after.
And not just MMOs either. I’m very personally excited about what Valve is doing and I play a lot of multiplayer games. A lot of Team Fortress.

[waylander]

I generally give a game 90 days to improve. I'll give Mythic that long too.

However unless they fix PVE EXP gains and PQ influence/exp gains, I will never roll an ALT.

[RUiN 427]

i'm going to take a break from all mmo's for this month, then do WOTLK launch. I will keep my eye on WAR and return to it for sure. But for now, it's the perfect time for a break and to let them sort some things out. I'm sure the rested xp won't hurt either.

[Arthur_Parker]

It's not Mythic who were running the European servers, so it shouldn't surprise him because "Mythic is a very good company" it should be fairly obvious that its going to happen because having communication between several corporate entities - GOA, Mythic, EA - in the launch of a major MMOG puts a whole new level of complexity into the picture. I don't think The9 had quite as smooth a time with WoW in China when they launched as Blizzard did (database lag excepted) even though they had a longer time after the initial Blizzard game launch than GOA did with Warhammer.

It also shouldn't surprise him because the European launch was fine, GOA had serious problems in open beta, not release aka "start".  I think the European servers have actually been more reliable than the NA one's since release, thanks to you guys beta testing the patches for us.

Linky

And lastly, Mark > that guy from blizzard. :P He would have never worded it so stupid

LOL, thanks. But I have my moments, I'm not surprised at all by what Paul said. Of course Blizzard is worried about us just as they should be worried at some level about every other MMO that might come out, that's his job. Frankly, what got me steamed is a piece at MTV multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2008/10/16/world-of-warcraft-game-director-on-warhammer-online where the guy talks a bit of smack about WAR, our Beta policy and stuff like that. My reaction to that was, interesting. 

I've always said nice things about WoW as I thank Blizzard for expanding the market, bringing more attention to this space, most important MMO of this generation, etc. But for Kaplan to shoot off his mouth about our beta policy, lack of confidence or criticism about WAR is just BS and it's wrong. And so, I deviated from my long-standing policy of not criticizing other developers, especially on subjective issues. It will be an interesting read.

Mark

Bit of back and forth going on now, I believe there's going to be "something big" released in a Mythic statement tomorrow about WAR version 1.1, just have to wait and see what it is I guess.

[HRose]

Finally some smack talk and we get over this silly "professional" behavior.

Reminds me of something (or someone) :)

[Lakov_Sanite]

MJ's questionable judgement continues with picking a fight he has no way of winning.

[Paelos]

MJ's questionable judgement continues with picking a fight he has no way of winning.

I disagree. We all win in a nerd slapfight! 

[Arthur_Parker]

Yeah, I disagree as well, I don't see why they should pretend to be all nicey nice, nobody buys it anyway, more reason to compete is better for us players too.

linky

.....99.9% of the time I have taken the high road publicly. But right now, I'm going another route. We have worked way too hard on WAR and have too many great things coming to have a competitor dump on us (whatever their motivation is). Especially when it is a company like Blizzard who we had enough respect for and friendship with to allow them to come and visit Mythic and look at how we do things when they were still in development for WoW. I even had a conversation with the Vivendi CEO when WoW was about to miss its release date about how they need to give Blizzard additional time to complete the game because I knew back then how important WoW was going to be for VUG and for the online industry. I'm for all competition, love it but I think that Kaplan and to a lesser extent Sams, were way out of line.

Mark

linky

As to history with Kaplan, none that I am aware of, which makes it even more surprising since I don't even know the guy personally. I have no problem getting down and dirty when I need to but I hate doing so even when I feel its deserved. If either of these things have happened in a different time frame, I would have handled it differently but for both of them to break now and with the tone and tenor and undercurrents of their statements, I have no problem reacting and responding to them. But I guess I shouldn't be surprised, I remember one interview with Pardo prior to WoW's launch where he saud that WoW's PvP system/realm point/honor point/etc. would be, unlike DAoC, useful. Hmm, how many times have they redone that system? Developers should stick to worrying about their own games and companies as none of us are perfect. People who live in glass castles and all that.

Mark

 

[Goreschach]

Who wants to root through various internets to gather up a post with all of their 'beatles' type shit they said earlier?

[tazelbain]

I don't see how it is "dumping on WAR" when it is an assessment that a large portion of the players feel exactly the same way.  Even better, the key decision makers for the top dog just told you exactly what areas you need to do better to compete against them.  You can't get better advice than that.

[Draegan]

Bit of back and forth going on now, I believe there's going to be "something big" released in a Mythic statement tomorrow about WAR version 1.1, just have to wait and see what it is I guess.

Funny thread.  Whats coming tomorrow?

[Arthur_Parker]

I don't see how it is "dumping on WAR" when it is an assessment that a large portion of the players feel exactly the same way.  Even better, the key decision makers for the top dog just told you exactly what areas you need do better compete against them.  You can't get better advice than that.

Pointing out all the flaws is fine, well maybe not fine, it's not professional but whatever, from distant memory I think Mythic were guilty of that long ago.  But leaving that aside, there are a couple of minor points that could have been clearer and I'm sure provoked Mark.

Firstly there weren't any server problems at release in Europe.  Then the other guy talks about "griefing" players in a PQ, now correct me if I'm wrong but that's means he's not on a CORE ruleset server doesn't it?  If so he didn't make that clear and "griefing" is one of those trigger words to a potential mmorpg subscriber.  The mention of AOC in the same context as returning subscribers from WAR, the irrelevant (to us players anyway) mention of internal Beta policies for employees.

Lastly it's the day before Mark's big state of the game statement that he's been mentioning for a couple of days. 

Taking it altogether while considering the very real problems that WAR has, I'm not sure what else Blizzard could have done to annoy him more, maybe hire Eldin as a Blizzard community rep?

[Phunked]

So MJ is butthurt because the WoW people are saying that their game is more fun. Apparently if they change systems because they suck, it's a bad thing. Hint: your game has a lot of shit that needs changing. Yes you have better PvP. But you've had 4 years to fix that. WAR PvE is leaps and bounds behind WoW release PvE. Not even going to touch crafting, etc.

I like WAR. I like WoW. I play them both. I think MJ is either talking smack while secretly telling the code monkeys to finish the miracle patch or he has no fucking clue about what's wrong with his own game.

[HaemishM]

Developers should stick to worrying about their own games and companies as none of us are perfect. People who live in glass castles and all that.

Mark

Ummm, Mark. That whistling sound? It's the fucking IRONY TRAIN.

[Arthur_Parker]

linky

Mark, why would you stoop to getting in this type of argument with people at Blizzard? Nothing good comes to Mythic by pursuing such a contest of words. All that MTV interview did was make Kaplan look like a smug little asshole - which is what he is to many. Why lower yourself to his level?

Because I'm angry and given that his position at Blizzard, I think he should have showed more class. You can argue that I should have as well but I'm tired of this type of BS, especially coming from Blizzard. They have made billions off WoW and they really don't need Kaplan dissing, in any way, a competitive product. That's just wrong, period. I didn't diss EQ/AC/UO when we were developing DAoC and that's always been a standing rule of mine. If another developer doesn't want to play by the same rule, I reserve the right to respond, which I did. In Kaplan's case, talking about "his issues" with WAR during it's first 30 days is laughable especially since WoW had plenty of issues of their own at launch and considering that they spent 2x as long working on WoW as we did on WAR, some of their issues were just as bad or worse than ours. And his nonsense about our Beta is even more laughable considering Blizzard runs internal-only (NDAed by employment agreements) alphas at the same point where we would already be inviting thousands of regular people (under NDA) into our game.

I'm not normally a conspiracy kind of guy but within a few days of each other the COO and the Game Director of Blizzard both diss our game (though Paul did damn us with faint praise) does make me wonder.

Mark

 

[Ingmar]

This just in: Mark Jacobs is really thin-skinned about this kind of shit.

cf. the OMG WHY CANT I BLOG stuff.

[tazelbain]

> considering that they spent 2x as long working on WoW
LOL, hey mark ,no one cares how long it took to make WAR.  We only care about now and the *near* furture.

[rattran]

Likewise, no one cares about the issues at WoW launch (queuedance) anymore. Your game is competing with theirs as it is NOW. Just like their expansion will be competing with your game as it is next month.

[Sjofn]

J. Allen Brack also had some nice comments in the wired interview...

Wired: Warhammer Online just came out. It's the first MMO since you guys released World of Warcraft four or five years ago that has really had the kind of fan reaction and critical praise to compete with World of Warcraft on, at least, a content level. Does that change how you guys approach the game, or approach your own game anyway?
J. Allen Brack: Um, not really. We are interested in making WoW the most fun game that we can make it and that’s sort of been our philosophy for the last four years, it’s going to continue to be our philosophy. So, as far as Warhammer, I’m excited to see more games come out, I’m a gamer, I love playing games ...
Wired: Have you played it?
Brack: I have a copy. I’m going to play it over Thanksgiving. I haven’t actually played it yet.
Wired: It takes a bit of time to get into.
Brack: Right. We have a couple of people on the team who play it.
Wired: Really? And they aren’t immediately fired for blaspheming against the company?
Brack: No, not at all. Quite the opposite actually.
We’re gamers. We wanna play fun games. So, if it’s a good game and they’re enjoying it, great. We’ve had people play D&D Online, Lord of the Rings Online, Age of Conan -- we’ve got lots of people who play lots of different types of games, both before WoW came out and after.
And not just MMOs either. I’m very personally excited about what Valve is doing and I play a lot of multiplayer games. A lot of Team Fortress.

That's crazy! They should be burning the heretics or some shit!


EDIT: I also really enjoy how Mark Jacobs continues to be a whiney-ass titty baby about the most random stuff. And I'm sorry, Mr. Jacobs, your beta versus Blizzard's BETA (your boo hoo about their alpha being under NDA and last a really long time so it's totally practically the same waaah is silly) sucks and makes people suspicious. I understand why people like NDAs, and naturally I think they have their place, but Mythic goes above and beyond the call of duty on NDAs (see: the way your Elder servers versus "regular" closed beta servers or whatever were handled). When you compare that to Blizzard's "we're in beta and we'll let EVERYONE IN THE WORLD read our beta boards!" it's really no contest for consumers.

[Mazakiel]

Jacobs seems to come across as a bit whiny and defensive in all of this, the response could have been much more professional. 

To be fair though, as someone who canceled their CE subscription before the trial was up due to all sorts of issues I had with the game, it could be bias coming through on my end. 

[Venkman]

You could replace the proper names here and throw it into the Politics forum with the same sort of bystander comments.

The trouble is, the games are still going to be compared in their current states. Only developers can gauge the success of their launch against the state of another game at that game's initial launch. Everyone else looks at the on-ground reality of a highly polished game that's playable and complete right now vs one that is, well, not.

That is something it seems some companies haven't yet learned, as if they were designing their game to fight the last fight rather than the current one.

It can also get personal. You don't dump a good percentage of your life into a major game and then a sequel without falling at least a little in love with it. While it's easy to say "love your work just don't be in love with your work", fact is that happens eventually. So if MJ is feeling tweaked because of the criticism, well hell, that's well within his rights. And that it comes from Blizzard makes it a bit more personal because their the elephant and because of the longstanding relationship between Warcraft and Warhammer.

But in any case, this sort of thing, properly managed, can be good PR  

[Ratman_tf]

Developers should stick to worrying about their own games and companies as none of us are perfect. People who live in glass castles and all that.

Mark

Ummm, Mark. That whistling sound? It's the fucking IRONY TRAIN.

When did Richard Gariott get a glass castle?

...


My server was frikkin packed with the new patch. Problems and all. People waded through the shit to get to the new shinies.

[Lakov_Sanite]

I retract my prior statement, this nerdrage is fucking hilarious.

[Paelos]

I retract my prior staement, this nerdrage is fucking hilarious.

I knew you'd come around! 

[Azazel]

This thread is pure win! Thanks everyone for dumping all the quotes in here. I'm about to go off to work in a good mood now....

 

[Ingmar]

The root problem with Mythic seems to be a problem with the processes (and maybe their core philosophies about customer relations too.) WAR has some great ideas but the whole process of testing, polish, and communication - much like with DAOC - really leaves a lot to be desired.

It is a testament to how good those ideas that form the core of the game are that I still want to play it despite all the other issues.

[Sjofn]

I think it's why they get a lot of people passionately begging them to change those testing and communication issues. The underlying ideas are awesome, but they need to be fixed up and GOD JUST LET US LOVE YOU MYTHIC.