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Author Topic: I'm done with RvR lakes until Mythic does something substantial  (Read 39160 times)
HRose
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on: October 14, 2008, 12:43:07 PM

I've tried, really tried.

Joined a warband both yesterday and today. In both cases my experience bar didn't move. I'm at level 15, tier 2, did most of the PQs, completely bored about doing the same scenarios over and over.

What are the alternatives? There are none. It's just scenarios or scenarios.

The +50% to experience in RvR lakes did help. In the sense that players are trying, experimenting and then go back doing scenarios because the change is meaningless. As someone else said here: +50% to nothing is still nothing.

Conquering Battlefield Objectives yields ZERO experience. One wonders why bother. Really, why?

In order to even try to attack a keep you need two warbands, and once you have two warbands the direct kills are worthless. They could put the bonus at 500% and it still wouldn't be worth the time wasted compared to a scenario. It's the objectives that need to be fixed.

Days ago the zones were just deserted, so willingly or not, you couldn't do anything. Now there are some players sporadically trying to do something, and then disband shortly after they realize it's utterly pointless.

I promised myself to not waste any more time. The day I see in patch notes that something concrete is being done I'll try again and see if it's worth it. Till then this is Scenarios Online and nothing else.

And the grind is awful already at level 15, on a server with a +20% bonus on top of everything. I don't even want to know how it feels later.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2008, 02:43:32 PM by HRose »

-HRose / Abalieno
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Nebu
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Reply #1 on: October 14, 2008, 12:45:32 PM

This is a great opportunity to post some solutions.  I know that you get hammered pretty hard around here for your opinions, but I'm still interested in hearing your views on what would fix the problems as you see them. 

EDIT: You may want to rethink the thread title. 

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Brogarn
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Reply #2 on: October 14, 2008, 12:56:34 PM

I've read the title 5 times now and can only come up with "Wait... what?"
Rasix
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Reply #3 on: October 14, 2008, 01:01:35 PM

That's our Viklas!  awesome, for real

-Rasix
tazelbain
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Reply #4 on: October 14, 2008, 01:04:23 PM

To get your xp bar to move in you have to defend a keep that is being attacked.  But so far my best defense generated xp at 1/4th the rate as scenarios.


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zubey
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Reply #5 on: October 14, 2008, 01:04:59 PM

Potential idea that's partially implemented:   Always spawn a Keep Lord loot bag with a really nice armor set item (purple? gold? bag).  If you make lake RvR the best place to get the rarest of equipment, it will become popular.

Idea that's not yet implemented: Loot bag for keep defense.  Or possibly just a better drop rate when you kill an enemy player while in a keep you control.

Summary: Make world RvR give the best equipment at all levels.
Righ
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Reply #6 on: October 14, 2008, 01:08:47 PM

He means "until Mythic does something substantial". I'd like them to be worth more XP and more renown, and if they were to make them so, there would be more of the sort of PvP that the game is apparently aimed at. However, I'm still okay with playing in the RvR lakes and keeps because I enjoy it. It doesn't have to level me up.

As it stands, I can usually find a decent warband at prime time if I'm looking for some RvR fun. I suspect that if they were to make it the best way to gain XP and renown, the RvR lakes would become choked up lag pits and we'd be complaining about slideshow performance instead.

The camera adds a thousand barrels. - Steven Colbert
Nebu
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Reply #7 on: October 14, 2008, 01:11:48 PM

RvR should be more important/vital/influential than sport pvp yet the reverse seems to be true in WAR.  I'd love to see this shift, but the masses seem to prefer sport over world.  Perhaps my issue is more with the desires of the average gamer than with Mythic.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Rasix
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Reply #8 on: October 14, 2008, 01:19:09 PM

I think you'd get better mileage for participation with the loot angle.  The sporadic nature of open pvp can't compete with someone grinding out scenarios.  It should be competitive, but you'd be hard pressed to make it as predictable and instantly accessable.  Loot is an incentive that crosses boundries of convenience as other games have shown.

-Rasix
Mrbloodworth
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Reply #9 on: October 14, 2008, 01:48:27 PM


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pxib
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Reply #10 on: October 14, 2008, 03:02:17 PM

Up the power of the buffs received from the mini-bosses at the battlefield objectives so they actually feel worthwhile, drop the later-tier battlefiend objective difficulty from hero&champions to tier one's champion&basic, and remove the "protected" time period for battlefield objectives entirely. Every player who is defending when the objective caps automatically receives an 60 minute version of the objective buff.

With a single champion and quickly respawning basic mobs, one or two players can solo an objective if nobody's defending... BUT any defenders have an enormous advantage and must be removed or disabled prior to cap. Advantageous buffs should inspire players to explore the "lake" if they're nearby (and without the 15 minute no-NPC period, they have a realistic expectation of receiving them)... and potentially risk a few caps if their side doesn't have them. These small numbers of order and destruction players will run across eachother and skirmish.

Drop the power of the current keep lord, and more directly tie his power and the number of NPC keep guards (and champions) to the number of objectives controlled, so that a Keep assault depends more heavily upon maintaining objective control. If objective skirmishes are successful, the groups that form during them should be able to dream of capturing a keep, and the side the acontrols the keep should be nervous.

I get the feeling this is what Mythic had in mind, but I'm not seeing that they've implemented it.

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Morfiend
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Reply #11 on: October 14, 2008, 03:05:56 PM

I have been talking about this with several of my guildies, and this is what I have come up with.

1) Make BOs and Keeps give a BIG BIG chunk of EXP, say 10k for BO and 25 to 50k for a keep.
2) Put Keeps on a 30 - 60 minute lock out, like BOs. To stop keep trading.
3) Add in the "no exp" buff thing from scenarios in a radius around the keeps, then up the renown earned to 500 per minute for attackers and defeners.
4) Major increase to amount of Epic and Massive loot bags to keeps.
5) Add PQ loot bags to BOs. Green only.
6) Put in some sort of "Defense Bonus", some thing like, if the outer door is breached, and the attacking force doesnt kill the keep lord in 30 to 60 minutes, the defending team gets a bonus of like 10k exp.

What this does it make people want to take and hold, and also defend keeps. That brings them out of the Scenarios, in to the world, and also invigorates the RVR which is a fucking ghost town.

My opinion is that this game is going to succeed or sink on their ability to get people in to RVR, which is the real meat of the game.
HRose
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Reply #12 on: October 14, 2008, 03:08:31 PM

Potential idea that's partially implemented:   Always spawn a Keep Lord loot bag with a really nice armor set item (purple? gold? bag).  If you make lake RvR the best place to get the rarest of equipment, it will become popular.
I do not agree.

Loot is an issue when you are at the level cap. When you are leveling up, especially with the current grinding, the most sought currency is XP.

RvR lakes need to hand out experience comparable to the one achieved in scenarios. Including the downtimes.

I have my own ideas about how to fix this, but I also read PLENTY of good ideas on random forums. The average player seems to have a better idea than Mythic and their 50% bonus.

My current proposal, since Nebu asked:
- Players take a Battlefield Objective and cap it (worth nothing for now). Guilds can put a banner on the BO and stack benefits.
- For the time the BO is being actively defended (meaning there are real players in its proximity) it "blinks" on the map for both factions. So that all players know that there's activity there.
- All the kills (both defenders and attackers) that happen within a decently wide radius from the BO starts to be worth more points (XP, renown). A bonus that should be slightly higher for defenders, to encourage defense.
- For all the kills that defenders manage, some points go into a "bounty pool" in the BO. The more kills, the more this pool increases. I'd also make the BO generate some of these points even if no one is around, so that if left untouched for a lot of hours it actually start to be worth something anyway.
- This means that the longer it takes to conquer the BO, the biggest is going to be the reward, as it increases with the time and makes the prize progressively juicier.
- In order to "collect" these points the attackers need to conquer the objective themselves.

This achieves mainly two effects. The first is that the BO works like a magnet, like a natural convergence since the direct kills are worth a lot more when they are closer to it. The second is that the reward increases over time, so growing to a level that will likely force the other faction to take action.

-HRose / Abalieno
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HRose
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Reply #13 on: October 14, 2008, 03:13:00 PM

1) Make BOs and Keeps give a BIG BIG chunk of EXP, say 10k for BO and 25 to 50k for a keep.
2) Put Keeps on a 30 - 60 minute lock out, like BOs. To stop keep trading.
This time out doesn't resolve the problem.

If you put the lock out at 30 minutes, then they'll trade them every 30 minutes. If you it at 60, every 60.

There is nothing that encourages defense, or that justifies the interference with the other faction. If the big reward is about the objective, then players will avoid each other and just get the objective.

This is why I was suggesting to tie the rewards for capping an objective with the activity around it. You focus the activity, then reward the activity itself. Without activity = the BO is worth little.

My idea instead is alike to setting up a beacon. Players cap an objective and it's like telling "we're here" to the whole zone. Enemy players see that, and go grab those points. It's like if players had a portable scenario bag to set up wherever they like. Sending a "come play here" signal to the whole zone.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2008, 03:18:03 PM by HRose »

-HRose / Abalieno
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tazelbain
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Reply #14 on: October 14, 2008, 03:26:12 PM

Its hard for me imagine how to fix this without starting over from scratch.  The keeps are almost okay but the BOs are just horrible.  I have yet to see any significant PvP happen around the the BOs.  Either they are something we take before or after we take the keeps.


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Hawkbit
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Reply #15 on: October 14, 2008, 03:30:14 PM

Its hard for me imagine how to fix this without starting over from scratch.  The keeps are almost okay but the BOs are just horrible.  I have yet to see any significant PvP happen around the the BOs.  Either they are something we take before or after we take the keeps.



That's likely a product of
1.  how vast the world is and/or how underpopulated the servers are, and
2.  The relative ease of taking a BO. 

Hell, as a 26 Swordmaster I can nearly solo one of the 27 Champs that are defending a BO.  If I get a few more good players, we could likely take one as a trio. 
HRose
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Reply #16 on: October 14, 2008, 03:39:11 PM

Vastness of world is a big flaw. Was in DAoC and proof they don't learn a darn thing.

But a beacon would partially solve that. If players know where to find the action, then the empty space isn't anymore as vast. If you played Planetside you know what I mean.

-HRose / Abalieno
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tazelbain
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Reply #17 on: October 14, 2008, 03:45:44 PM

If there is a beacon, it should be the standards.

Oh, and just one map for a lake. Duh.

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Nija
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Reply #18 on: October 14, 2008, 03:51:12 PM

Hell, as a 26 Swordmaster I can nearly solo one of the 27 Champs that are defending a BO.  If I get a few more good players, we could likely take one as a trio. 

You can solo T3 keeps as a SM at 40.

Unfortunately, you can't loot all 7 bags if you're the only one on the contribution list.
Morfiend
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Reply #19 on: October 14, 2008, 04:15:14 PM

From the herald.

Quote
Hi all,


A few days ago we introduced Phase 1 of our Experience Enhancements, boosting quest experience in Tiers 3 and 4, adding repeatable quests to key chapters and increasing the experience awarded for killing an enemy player in an RvR lake by 50 percent!

Today, we launch Phase 2 of this ongoing effort. Players who capture an RvR keep previously received only renown. As of today, players of the appropriate rank (actual, not bolstered) will also earn an experience bonus for successfully defeating a keep lord.

As with Public Quests and defeating monsters, the experience awarded for the successful capture of a keep will vary depending on a player’s rank relative to the difficulty of the keep. In Tier 2, players will begin to earn this bonus when they reach rank 15. In Tier 3, the minimum rank required is 25, and in Tier 4 it is 35. Players will notice a diminishing return from keep captures if their level approaches the top of that tier.

Keep sieges are a centerpiece of our RvR gameplay, and we’re happy to make the successful capture of an enemy keep even more rewarding. We’ll continue to look for ways to improve the rate of experience gain in WAR, including rewards for defending Keeps and capturing Battlefield Objectives. Stay tuned!

I am going to go ahead and say, not good enough. Part 3 better be damn good.
rk47
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Reply #20 on: October 14, 2008, 04:40:00 PM

Hell, as a 26 Swordmaster I can nearly solo one of the 27 Champs that are defending a BO.  If I get a few more good players, we could likely take one as a trio. 

You can solo T3 keeps as a SM at 40.

Unfortunately, you can't loot all 7 bags if you're the only one on the contribution list.
only in open rvr. you'll turn to chicken in core.

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Reply #21 on: October 14, 2008, 04:40:43 PM

What a terrible can't see the forest for the trees solution.

Christ, what is with Mythic and wanting to keep people from hitting 40. 1-39 should've just been a fast tutorial in combat. Dumb dumb dumb.
Morfiend
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Reply #22 on: October 14, 2008, 04:47:59 PM

What a terrible can't see the forest for the trees solution.

Christ, what is with Mythic and wanting to keep people from hitting 40. 1-39 should've just been a fast tutorial in combat. Dumb dumb dumb.

Yeah, Mythic needs to turn this shit around quickly. I already have people dropping from my guild to go back to WoW, or just to play random flash games. If it is happening with some fairly hardcore people already, I can bet it is happening all over the game.
Nebu
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Reply #23 on: October 14, 2008, 04:56:59 PM

Christ, what is with Mythic and wanting to keep people from hitting 40. 1-39 should've just been a fast tutorial in combat. Dumb dumb dumb.

YES YES YES.  EXACTLY!


Now I just hope you were being serious. 

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
HRose
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Reply #24 on: October 14, 2008, 05:06:57 PM

People are reporting it's less than 2k xp at level 30 for a successful keep conquest.

I really would like to speak with Mythic's designer to understand what the hell they are thinking.

-HRose / Abalieno
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schild
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Reply #25 on: October 14, 2008, 05:26:27 PM

Why wouldn't I be serious about that?

It's true, 1-39 should've taken 24 hours total or less.
Tarami
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Reply #26 on: October 14, 2008, 05:41:56 PM

1-39 should've taken 24 hours total or less.
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rk47
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Reply #27 on: October 14, 2008, 05:44:14 PM

People are reporting it's less than 2k xp at level 30 for a successful keep conquest.

I really would like to speak with Mythic's designer to understand what the hell they are thinking.


Colonel Sanders is back in my wallet
jlwilli5
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Reply #28 on: October 14, 2008, 05:53:22 PM

    Ulthuan sucks. RvR sucks on Ulthuan. Scenarios suck on Ulthuan. PQ's suck on Ulthuan.
    Since release on Ulthuan, there has been an utter lack of team work by the general Order population on Ulthuan.
    This is a team based game and we don't have a team.
    Of course its not fun or enjoyable.

    Im not even guilded on my other server(i play order there too) and...

    Ive been in more RvR lake combat(solo and grouped with PUG's) in the last few days than I could find in the last month on Ulthuan.
    I can count the number of unfinished PQ's on one hand.
    The chat is sparse in scenarios because peaple know what to do and who to do it too.
    I am in no hurry to get to 40.
    I'm having a blast.


   
     
     
   

Target Erukul 

EvE:
      Lukure
      Karsys
Draegan
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Reply #29 on: October 14, 2008, 06:07:10 PM

I can't believe Mythic is stupid enough not to bump the rewards of RvR open world fighting.  What the fuck?

I should be able to hit top Rank in about 24-48 hours of play time.  The real grind should be renown ranks 40-80.

It's pretty bad.  Mark Jacobs needs to do something.

Tier 2 should take 1.5-2 times the amount of time Tier 1 takes, and the scale that ratio linearly all the way up.
schild
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Reply #30 on: October 14, 2008, 06:15:55 PM

lol, 3k exp for capturing the inevitable city

that's awesome
Hawkbit
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Reply #31 on: October 14, 2008, 06:49:13 PM

lol, 3k exp for capturing the inevitable city

that's awesome

It has to be shopped, right?  The end-goal of the game nets you 3000 XP?   swamp poop
Venkman
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Reply #32 on: October 14, 2008, 06:55:50 PM

Christ, what is with Mythic and wanting to keep people from hitting 40.

Really? You've been around as long as most of us. They think the leveling part is more important to retention than the action at 40. Many parts seemed to be designed under the pre-WoW definition of success in the genre. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but it does seem pretty obvious.
Trippy
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Reply #33 on: October 14, 2008, 07:03:25 PM

lol, 3k exp for capturing the inevitable city

that's awesome

It has to be shopped, right?  The end-goal of the game nets you 3000 XP?   swamp poop
The more important question is why is the end-goal of a PvP game PvE content?
Khaldun
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Reply #34 on: October 14, 2008, 07:03:35 PM

Everybody still confident that they're not going to rush-rush slap up some kind of endgame catassery or drop some uber-gear in the game, folks? This is why those kind of things happen, because you didn't plan a lasting, vigorous game around your central design concepts and because you used your beta test mostly as a marketing tool and therefore tried to keep people from seeing how poor your long-term plan really was. Panic Plan B is to create some ubergear as part of the endgame objectives, make the endgame objectives 5000% more grindy, and hope that keeps enough people busy for you to figure out how to patch in the fun in the rest of the game.
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