Want to work at EA?

[Resvrgam]

What's the worse that can happen?

Homeless.

No Health Care.

Freeze to Death.

End up selling oranges on the side of the road ...or worse...


D-FENS!! ;)

[Dark Vengeance]

Man, even ***I*** wanted to kill Barbara Hershey in that flick.

Bring the noise.
Cheers...............

[Trippy]

That sort of rant strikes me as horribly naive, but then again I've been working in Silicon Valley tech jobs all my adult life. The software "death march" is standard practice at many software companies and while EA's sounds a little extreme it's certainly not unique. At my previous job most of engineering was on a two year death march and involved like over 500 people. This sort of thing isn't unique to tech companies either -- associate lawyers are expected to bill 80 hours a week at many law firms.

There have been a lot of changes in overtime laws in the last few years in both California and at the Federal level, so it's possible she has some legitimate complaint, though the special programmer exemption she's referring to is actually $41 an hour not $90K and you get paid for all hours worked, not just 40 hours a week. That exemption, though, only applies to more senior positions. Entry level programmers and other less senior types do not qualify for that exemption. For example if her SO is just a coding monkey working from a detailed spec he might not qualify.

[Shannow]

This sort of thing isn't unique to tech companies either -- associate lawyers are expected to bill 80 hours a week at many law firms.

Just a point but the difference is that the lawyers are BILLING for 80 hours, not just working them and getting paid for 40.

[Trippy]

Just a point but the difference is that the lawyers are BILLING for 80 hours, not just working them and getting paid for 40.

Yes that is true. That example was just to show that working very long hours on a regular basis is nothing unique to EA, the video game business, or programming in general.

[Trippy]

More stuff on EA as gathered from Slashdot:

EA workers readying class action lawsuit against EA

Blog entry from ex-EA developer

[Roac]

Being salaried does NOT mean that you can be forced to work obscene hours without overtime pay.  However, if your position is listed as "Exempt" under FLSA (Fair Labor and Standards Act), you can be pushed around by your employer in that way.  If you are exempt, you do not receive overtime, and may be called upon to work well beyond 40 hours per week.  Whether this is a wise decision of senior management is another question, but it is entirely legal.  And yes, failure to spend 40+ hours at work at your manager's request can be grounds for disciplinary action.  No, you do not have legal recourse.

One exception: some states have Right to Work laws, with varying strengths.  On a federal level such laws are about non-existant, especially if you are classified as exempt.  State laws may be more restrictive, however, and I'm not familiar with any outside my own.

About the spouse's complaint that the employees receive no "Comp time" - this is in fact outright illegal for any non-governmental employer to hand out.  For those who may not know, comp time is where an employer hands out "comp time" which can be used similarly to annual leave, in lieu of overtime payment.  So if I work 41 hours one week, and am non-exempt, my governmental employer can give me 1.5 (time and a half for overtime) hours comp time instead of 1.5 hours salary.  My private sector employer CANNOT DO THIS.  They must pay me 1.5 hours salary.  Exempt employees do not get either.  Worse, an employer of an exempt employee could not give their employees 1.5 hours overtime to be "nice", since that would give almost guaranteed victory of the employee to sue their employer in court for full overtime coverage, since they could qualify for non-exempt status.

Regarding the spouse's reference to California law on exemption; states can be more strict about issues, but not less.  Federal law under FLSA lays down the rules for exemption and non-exemption, with the protection being given to non-exempt employees.  State law cannot widen the number of people who fit into exempt status, but they can narrow it.  Unfortunately, federal law has a special clause for IT professionals, making the number of IT people who fit under exempt far larger than for any other profession.  That category of workers are specifically named.

For those interested, you should read snippets of federal FLSA law, as well as past court cases regarding it.  Couple hours of reading should give you a good idea of what'sg oing on.  Basically, this employee has no legal grounds to stand on.  They got pissy, and his boss fired him.  Maybe he had a mean boss, but unless there are California laws about Right to Work that covers his situation, he doesn't have a leg to stand on.  He should've left voluntarilly when he was offered.  I am an application manager, and certainly wouldn't want to hire anyone with that kind of attitude.  HR was right; either fall in line, or get out.  If you don't like how the game is being played where you work, leave.  There are better employers out there, and you will not win that kind of fight.

[HaemishM]

As someone who is consistently bored and unchallenged at my work place, I can safely say a few things. First off, find what you know you're going to love to do and make every effort to do that, even if it means working at a shit, dead-end job to make ends meet to finance your real life.

Also, if you are young, and know it will take a while to find the job or occupation that you want to do, DO NOT RACK UP CREDIT CARD DEBT. Watch your debt very hard. Do not try to splurge. Credit cards are easy temptations for future wage slavery. Avoid them like the plague. Even if you think you are strong enough to resist bad behavior, you are fooling yourself. You'll end up 30 and in more debt than you can pay, and forced to stay at jobs you hate simply because you can't quit. I know from experience.

Finally, the game industry knows the loopholes they can straddle with employee hours and abuses them to the nth degree, to an even worse degree than the rest of the software industry (which is almost as bad system-wide). They should all be ashamed of themselves.

[SirBruce]

I don't know if California law has been changed to make it more difficult or not to screw exempt employees, but I know it's pretty standard in the computer industry.

However, I do know there was a case of <mumble> v. Ingram Micro, where some IT folks managed to sue Ingram Micro to claim their jobs (tech support and the like) didn't really qualify as exempt.  I am told they won but I've never been able to look up the decision.  I can only conclude it was narrow enough that it didn't really apply outside their specific case.

Bruce

[Roac]

Tech support would not normally fit within the IT exemtion.  Job titles themselves aren't relevant for determining exemtion status, but if their job is answering the phone and tossing out level 1 support, they wouldn't qualify.  Nor would going to users and helping them fix screwups in Word and such.

[SirBruce]

Everywhere I have worked in the Valley, Tech Support DID indeed qualify as exempt, or at least, employers thought so.  This was, of course, under old FLSA rules, so if they've changed in the past few years, or if CA indeed has more restrictive regulations, anything is possible.

Bruce

[shiznitz]

Finally, the game industry knows the loopholes they can straddle with employee hours and abuses them to the nth degree, to an even worse degree than the rest of the software industry (which is almost as bad system-wide). They should all be ashamed of themselves.

I don't buy that "right to work a dream job." The working conditions in any industry are easily determined with minimal research. Awareness should be part and parcel of anyone's career plans. Knowing conditions are bad and taking the job anyway means you give up the right to whine.

[HaemishM]

Agreed. No one has the "right to work a dream job." And if you take a job in an industry you KNOW fucks over its employees on a regular basis and gets away with it, in this day and age, you're either too desperate or too stupid. That still doesn't make EA any less of a bunch of puppy-strangling sheep fuckers.

[AlteredOne]

Knowing conditions are bad and taking the job anyway means you give up the right to whine.

This assumes that you chose to take a job.  There is also a rather youthful assumption that it's easy to just pick up and find another job, if you do not like the one you have.  

In many of these stories, a company like EA absorbs a smaller company, and the workers from the smaller company are forced into a new culture.  This was not their choice -- they were essentially sold out by their greedy management, who proceed to float away on their golden parachutes.

Likewise, these issues often are overlooked by young workers...  Often they have no prior experience with which to compare their conditions, and they also do not have children, wives, and significant responsibilities outside work.  Many of them just assume that a job in the gaming industry is a dream career, equivalent to getting paid to play sports.  Notice that most of these stories involve spouses and kids.  Most reputable employers understand that families are important for workers, and make allowances.

[WayAbvPar]

Everywhere I have worked in the Valley, Tech Support DID indeed qualify as exempt, or at least, employers thought so.  This was, of course, under old FLSA rules, so if they've changed in the past few years, or if CA indeed has more restrictive regulations, anything is possible.

Bruce

My anecdotal evidence- I am the only non-exempt employee in my office (there was another one, but he is moving to another project). We are mostly a software development division, but I provide tech support/help desk assistance to the users of one of our software products. They would love to have me as exempt (which I wouldn't mind, if only to not have to use the shitty web-based timekeeping system in place for the hundreds of non-exempt employees at other facilities), but apparently WA law defines my job as non-exempt. The good news is I get OT if/when there are any emergency contacts outside of business hours. I get about 2 a year =P

[Margalis]

Note: I am a "Techinical Lead" at a software company, manage a couple of people, and have worked 100 hour weeks.

Something a lot of people are missing here is that technical work is not of the nature where more = better. When people get run-down they make mistakes, and those mistakes then take more time to correct.

I have worked very very long hours for some periods of time, but I spent some of that time doing non-technical work like editing and writing documentation. I am 100% certain that I would accomplish less working 100 hours a week than 75 actually programming. I have worked with a number of people who tried to be heroic and pull long hours, only to screw us with things other people would have to hunt down and correct.

So, regardless of whether the death march is wrong or legal of whatever, a lot of the time it is counter-productive. You end up accomplishing less, so then you have to work longer to "make up" for it, and then you introduce even more problems.

[daveNYC]

So, regardless of whether the death march is wrong or legal of whatever, a lot of the time it is counter-productive. You end up accomplishing less, so then you have to work longer to "make up" for it, and then you introduce even more problems.

Software problems are not a problem when talking about computer games.  In the couple of weeks it takes the gold code to make it's way to the store shelves, there's enough time to slam out that first critical patch.

[Margalis]

Software problems are not a problem when talking about computer games.  In the couple of weeks it takes the gold code to make it's way to the store shelves, there's enough time to slam out that first critical patch.

But after that you are still behind. Negative productivity is negative productivity no matter how you slice it.

That critical patch that fixes the most glaring issues could have been to add polish instead if hte glaring issues had been fixed.

The bottom line is that people have limits at all things that require significant brain investment, and once you cross that limit you don't just get lower productivity, you can get negative productivity. For most workers, the last 10 hours in a 100 hour work-week will actually be setting the project back.

[Murgos]

IT would (specifically programmers) seem an ideal candidate for unionization.  There is a high barrier to entry, you can't just hire scabs off the street to work those jobs.  If all your programmers strike, and your company produces software for a living your business fails.   I think the only real reason there isn't a programmers guild or union is that in the past salaries have been voluntarily high enough that it was a moot point.  If you can make 70 - 90k on 4 or 5 years experience with full bennies whats a union going to get you?

Considering that software production relies ENTIRELY on the efforts of the workers I wouldn't be surprised to see the workers start to exert some more of this massive leverage they have sooner rather than later.

[Resvrgam]

IT would (specifically programmers) seem an ideal candidate for unionization.  There is a high barrier to entry, you can't just hire scabs off the street to work those jobs.  If all your programmers strike, and your company produces software for a living your business fails.   I think the only real reason there isn't a programmers guild or union is that in the past salaries have been voluntarily high enough that it was a moot point.  If you can make 70 - 90k on 4 or 5 years experience with full bennies whats a union going to get you?

Considering that software production relies ENTIRELY on the efforts of the workers I wouldn't be surprised to see the workers start to exert some more of this massive leverage they have sooner rather than later.

One sad factor to plug into that equation is:

"So you guys are gonna strike if we don't give you benefits? Fine.  I'm sure Sanjay, Rajiv, Rana & Samir over in Bombay will be more than happy to take those jobs off your hands for a lot lower pay.  Thank you, come again."

:(

[HaemishM]

The fact that physical location means jack and shit to software production, and having remote locations in India actually lowers the cost of production rather than raising it makes the idea that programmers unions will form ludicrous. While the programmers may think unionizing would allow them to fight outsourcing, it'll have the exact opposite effect unless "no outsourcing" laws are put into place.

"We'll strike!"

"I'll hire Samir."

"Shit."

[AOFanboi]

"We'll strike!"

"I'll hire Samir."

"Shit."

"Uh, Samir, how is your team coming along with our must-be-released-with-the-movie licensed game? It's awfully close to the gold milestone date..."

"Why don't you take an expensive flight halfway around the world and find out, sahib? As far as you know we are working very hard here."

Outsourcing development means outsorcing responsibility. Local developers can be supervised face to face. If you wish to sacrifice that option, by all means pick the cheapest route, but remember the rule: "Cheaply, quickly, reliably, pick any two."

[HaemishM]

I think the game industry has shown over and over again that reliability is job #50,003, especially when cheaply and quickly are options.

[Trippy]

Apparently the news of EA's working conditions hasn't reached Sweden as EA made an offer to suck the life out of, I mean buy Swedish developer DICE:

http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/041115/145038_1.html

DICE will soon join such previously illustrious game companies as Origin, Maxis, Bullfrog, and Westwood Studios in having all their creativity crushed out of them by the video game juggernaut that is EA.

[Disco Stu]

Outsourcing development means outsorcing responsibility. Local developers can be supervised face to face. If you wish to sacrifice that option, by all means pick the cheapest route, but remember the rule: "Cheaply, quickly, reliably, pick any two."

Do you think game publishers like EA really give a fuck? With the type of working conditions being talked about they are almost assuredly scarping the very bottom of the barel in terms of programming talent anyway. No decent programer would ever in their right mind work under those conditions without a lot of compensation. Sure you may get a couple of guys with talent who really really really want to make games but most of the people who will stay around working in conditions like that do so because they are not good enough to go somewhere else.

[Comstar]

Well, why hasn't it been outsourced already? They won't. After all, one of the hallmarks of EA is breaking up stuido's that have worked well in the past, and moving them wholesale to be closer to managerment.

When EA starts importing programmers from India, they you can worry.

[Margalis]

A lot of game programmers are very poor. I interviewed at a bunch of game places a while back, it was kind of sad. At the time I was just out of college and I was better than anyone I talked to at any level. And I'm not claiming to be a programming genius.

Case in point, one of the lead programmers working on the high-profile project of a company with a lot of weight behind it was a former Turbo-Pascal programmer who had gotten fed up with his job analyzing stats for MLB.

[HaemishM]

Apparently the news of EA's working conditions hasn't reached Sweden as EA made an offer to suck the life out of, I mean buy Swedish developer DICE:

http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/041115/145038_1.html

DICE will soon join such previously illustrious game companies as Origin, Maxis, Bullfrog, and Westwood Studios in having all their creativity crushed out of them by the video game juggernaut that is EA.

Damn, I called that like 1 month after DICE had a hit with BF1942. Countdown to DICE Shutdown and Absorption: 1 year.

[WonderBrick]

http://www.igda.org/qol/open_letter.php

Quality of Life Issues are Holding Back the Game Industry
Despite the continued success of the games industry, the immaturity of current business and production practices is severely crippling the industry . The recent frenzy of discussion over impassioned testimony about the horrible working conditions within much of the industry attests to the reality of this often unspoken disease.

As the professional association that unites the game development community and serves as its voice, the International Game Developers Association is deeply disturbed by this vicious cycle and is working to better the situation. Improving the quality of life of game developers is an IGDA priority.

In tackling quality of life issues, it is important to realize that poor quality of life is symptomatic of more fundamental challenges within the industry (e.g., consolidation, ever-evolving technology, one-sided contracting, lack of project management expertise, no craft/job standards, etc), which in turn all need to be addressed in order to truly improve our work/life balance.

What's more, game developers are sometimes just as much to blame for submitting themselves to extreme working conditions, adopting a macho bravado in hopes of “proving” themselves worthy for the industry. Our own attitudes towards work/life balance and production practices need to change just as much as the attitudes of the “suits.”

For those who are looking to unionization as an option, it is important to note that the IGDA is not a union and cannot “become” one: the IGDA is incorporated as a non-profit professional association, which has a distinct role from that of a union. Further, as an international organization, the localized nature of unions (i.e., often requiring state by state and country by country solutions) is beyond our organizational scope.

It is unfortunate that it has gotten to the point of engaging in class action lawsuits. While some industry workers choose such legal means to gain retribution, the IGDA believes that a conciliatory approach is also an option.

The reality is that there are game companies that have proven that a focus on quality of life can lead to great games, AND business success: BioWare, Firaxis, Team17, Blue Fang, Cyberlore and Ensemble are just a few of the studios that put as much effort on keeping their employees happy and healthy as on their bottom line. These, and other sensible companies, realize that a strong quality of life leads to more productive and creative workers. In turn, these workers produce better games, and stay in the industry to share their experience with all the passionate new recruits - helping to avoid common mistakes and recurring pitfalls. Further, they realize that driving their people into the ground is a short-term view that is not sustainable.

It is sadly ironic that those who strive for success at any cost don't realize that mature and responsible human resource and production practices will more readily bring them what they so desperately seek. That is to say, regardless of the humane imperative, maintaining a strong quality of life is just good business.

The IGDA's white paper on quality of life best practices has already served as a powerful tool, but it is only the first step. Via an upcoming “best companies to work for” initiative, the IGDA will provide awareness of enlightened companies and their practices so that others in the industry can learn from their wisdom. Similarly, the IGDA will shine a light on the wealth of research and knowledge being generated from outside the games industry.

To aid in these outreach efforts, the IGDA will be hosting a full-day quality of life think-tank at the annual Game Developers Conference in March. Also, we'll be encouraging our 80+ chapters from all over the world to host local meetings and sessions to discuss and explore this important issue.

Further, the IGDA has two special interest groups that will help in sharing knowledge and work on related issues: the Production SIG (working to formalize the production process) and the Human Resources SIG (hub for HR professionals). The efforts of these two SIGs, in addition to the ongoing work of the Quality of Life Committee, will ensure a diverse perspective on solving quality of life problems.

This is only the beginning and we're still forming plans. We encourage everyone to get involved. We ask that you contact us (qol@igda.org) to volunteer, provide ideas, success stories, resources and any other relevant information. In particular, the IGDA is requesting details on active and pending lawsuits to add to our reference list online.

We have no doubt that with everyone's help and contribution we can save the industry and art form we are all so passionate about.

[AlteredOne]

A lot of game programmers are very poor. I interviewed at a bunch of game places a while back, it was kind of sad. At the time I was just out of college and I was better than anyone I talked to at any level. And I'm not claiming to be a programming genius.

Way back in 1995, I tried to get in with a local NC-based company, as a project leader.  I had some concepts fleshed out for an early MMO idea, but they told me basically "we already have all the concepts we need, right now we just need C++ experts."  Well, they proceeded to launch about 5 flops in a row, totally uncreative throwaway strat/sim titles, and they folded.  

Anyway I learned then and there, the industry tends to stifle creativity, and most of these companies are just copying other hits.  For programmers and project leaders, they are mainly looking for people who will fit with the programme, and crank out whatever is the flavor of the moment.  Fortunately, that experience helped direct me toward more stable, mature industries :)

Seems to me like very few people can count on a long career in the gaming industry, nor should they expect to.  There simply aren't many incentives for companies like EA to treat employees well, or encourage creativity.

[Margalis]

The lack of creativity comes from two distinct forces. The guys at the top are looking for the "next big thing" and think that best way to do that is to clone the last big thing.

Meanwhile, a lot of the guys on the bottom really played and liked a certain game and are basically hoping to re-create it. That's how most game-programmer wannabes start out. (That's certainly how I started out)

"Diablo was so cool man, we should make a game like Diablo!"

It's funny because the guys at the top just look after the bottom line, while the guys at the bottom want to make something they genuinely think is cool - but instead of clashing they both think along the same, incorrect lines. You would think they would be at odds but the aren't.

Part of that is that game programmers are often young, not very worldly, and can only conceive of "cool" in relation to existing things.

[AlteredOne]

The lack of creativity comes from two distinct forces. The guys at the top are looking for the "next big thing" and think that best way to do that is to clone the last big thing. Meanwhile, a lot of the guys on the bottom really played and liked a certain game and are basically hoping to re-create it.

Haha yeah good analysis.  The guys at my local game company were very much like you describe, addicted to Warcraft and wanted to copy it.  Their bosses were just money men.  Now, I can't say my particular idea would have saved their company, but obviously they needed concepts a little more than they thought...

Anyway I would add a couple other factors.  First, if you overwork your employees, creativity is almost guaranteed to suffer.  And second, the really big companies like EA make a habit of buying creative ideas from smaller companies.  Outsource the creativity, bring it in-house once it's a proven concept, and use your wageslave codemonkeys to create a surefire sequel or expansion.

[koboshi]

I'm a college grad who has been looking for a job in the industry since before I graduated. Now, half a year after graduation I still haven't been able to break down the steel reinforced door to this industry. How surprised I was to read that not only is the door wide open but they have been just begging for me.  After slapping myself a few times ( once to see if I was dreaming and the rest just cause I've been turned on to masochism by this whole experience) I sat down to write this flame.  

     What Fucking Shit!

     Where do I sign up for the scab work? I am a 24 year old, fresh out of school and I don't know any better. I would love nothing more than to replace a more qualified professional.  I haven't had a date for six years so I don't think I would miss the social life.  I get paid minimum wage to fill popcorn bags then sweep them up when the infants who bought them decide they only wanted a few bites and promptly throw the rest on the floor.  A minimum wage, by the way, that is one of the lowest allowed by federal law.  At a game company I would work for table scraps if it would give me that "must have a minimum of 1 (2, 5, 10, N+1) years experience," I find on every fucking job listing.  I guess the last hundred or so resumes I sent were all misplaced, that would explain why HR doesn't even have the decency to send a "Fuck off, we got someone ten times more qualified than you!" e-mail.

     OR maybe you just need to shut your fucking holes lest your silver spoons fall out!

     I got the IGDA open email and had to read it twice. Where's the punch line?  Seriously...

"Horrible working conditions"... "Unspoken disease"... "Poor quality of life"... "Driving people into the ground"

Is there a cat-o-nine-tails involved somewhere?  Do they only get to drink from a communal bucket that doubles as their toilet?  Are these people sleeping on the streets?  I live in D.C. where people do live in the streets, and don't cry about it half as loud as these bitches.

     Oh, no, I have one of the most demanding and interesting jobs in the world, two women love me, my wallet's too small for my fifties, and my diamond shoes are too tight!

     Simply put if you're one of these

34% said that games were only one of many career options for them

Then get the fuck out of the way and make room for those who plan on making games their whole life and don't think of this as just another paycheck.  To those who are still crying about the state of the industry, get a loan, make a company, and only hire seasoned professionals (applicants must have 3 shipped titles in as many years) like everyone else does!  Every good career starts with shit work and yours is no exception, but if you’re still at a company that "abuses" you after 5 years, you don't need a career counselor you need a battered women's support group.  "He only forces me to do overtime because he loves me!"

[sinij]

koboshi, you missed the point. There is no good reason to work people that hard other than for enjoyment of making their life harder. If your main concern is maximizing productivity you should stop short of 60 hours a week. That aside why do you think ‘industry’ makes it different – it is job for people that may have families and social life. Would you like to sweep your fucking popcorn for 78 hours a week?

[AlteredOne]

It's great that you are so motivated Koboshi, but there is such a thing as shitting in your own nest.  Sure, right now you are willing to do anything short of drinking from a communal urine pool, to get a job in the industry.  But you will not be happy, when they are still working you like a slave in 10 years, you are still single with no social life, and you are a pill-popping prematurely aged, unhealthy cubicle troll.

There are plenty of places in the world, where people can work in horrible conditions for a living wage.  But few of those places even pretend to be centers of creativity or invention.  The United States lives and dies by our ability to lead through example.  Movies and gaming are some of our biggest exports, and they require creativity to thrive.  With that said, good luck getting a code monkey position someplace, and hopefully someday you will move up to something more creative and less grinding.