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Author Topic: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...  (Read 37979 times)
schild
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Reply #35 on: October 10, 2008, 03:23:41 PM

Shoulda been +50% in scenarios. +50% in RvR isn't magically going to fill those lakes up.
trias_e
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Reply #36 on: October 10, 2008, 03:27:28 PM

Ew.  No more forced scenario grinding kthx.  More equal incentive across the board yes please.
Goreschach
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Reply #37 on: October 10, 2008, 04:14:58 PM

So is it time to start the 'What went wrong?' thread yet?
Trippy
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Reply #38 on: October 10, 2008, 05:34:13 PM

As a skeptic, I'll give Mythic this: they are really, really trying to be responsive to the significant issues that players are having in a really timely way.
They don't have any other choice. WotLK is launching shortly.
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #39 on: October 10, 2008, 05:51:33 PM

So is it time to start the 'What went wrong?' thread yet?

I'm waiting at least till the free months start expiring and areas of the game turn into a ghost town.

~a horrific, dark simulacrum that glares balefully at us, with evil intent.
Hawkbit
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Reply #40 on: October 10, 2008, 06:31:32 PM

Mark, if you read this, please, for the love of all that is holy, realize that you can't reduce the grind in the game by putting in repeatable grind quests.  I'm serious. 

Cut the XP needed to level, increase XP in orvr and remove the grind repeatable quests. 

Look, you're even putting a limit on how many times a player can even do each of those quests - doesn't that strike you as an unneeded step in the leveling process?

I applaud some of the changes you're going with, but damn man, that's not the right answer. 

Signed,

Stuck at 25. 
rk47
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Reply #41 on: October 10, 2008, 06:51:03 PM

Imo, they're not really thinking this through and just going into panic mode. RvR lakes? Wtf? Are you trying to reward players by mindlessly camping a secured BO flag over and over in the RvR zone for a CORE server? It's boring and once you've levelled past that tier, you're dog food till you're 2-3 levels higher and unlock better abilities and gear. Oh, guess what Mythic, Open RVR has no bolster for RvR lakes, so the lower tier gets screwed by the tier above them. All the time. No wonder in my time levelling my toon in Tier 1 Open RVR I kept seeing destro riding horses kiling shit in Empire T1 RvR. Why not really? I'd done the same if I were them. You got mobiliy, gear, levels, and you can farm them for the turn in quest 10 kills whoopdedo. Capping BO also gives RP yay. Go Mythic Go.

Making questing easier doesn't magically remove the grind. Fuck they even got the EXP bolster wrong for the population imbalance. Quest turn in doesn't get booster, wtf? Are you telling me to PQ grind or Scenario kill spree just to take advantage of that? Cause with all these shopping list quest, go here take out 10 dark elf, go there, take out 10 wolves at T4, I don't see the EXP Booster improve me much during off-peak hours questing. Oh sorry, am I doing it wrong? Am I supposed to PVP to lvl? Then why the fuck is your PVE gear reward outshining the PVP so much with less effort?

Colonel Sanders is back in my wallet
Phunked
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Reply #42 on: October 10, 2008, 07:15:02 PM

You don't see the vision fucktards.

They envision a world where if you're unbalanced at a certain tier (knockback-less classes in t3) then you will just bend over and do the one scenario to death until you level because IT'S THEIR CONTENT AND IT'S AWESOME SO YOU MUST DO IT THE WAY THE WANT. No way in hell will you every try to go around that crap by doing PvE and then realize the PvE sucks and takes forever to level with. Play exactly how Mythic wnats you to, or gtfo and go to WoW.

With this sort of marketing strat, it is very clear that they will be very, very commercially successful. WoW killer and all.
Lantyssa
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Reply #43 on: October 10, 2008, 07:38:48 PM

Why don't you tell him on their forums?

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
Rasix
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Reply #44 on: October 10, 2008, 07:39:50 PM

Maybe focus tests aren't such a good idea after all.  awesome, for real

Still having fun. Haven't hit the unfun part yet. Hooray for the guild turtle?

Btw, anti-fanbois are just as annoying fanbois.  Someone's getting annoying. I won't say who.  

Not defending Mythic's response to all of this.  It's pretty poor.  But it's Mythic, we've seen this before.

-Rasix
Evildrider
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Reply #45 on: October 10, 2008, 07:51:49 PM

Mark, if you read this, please, for the love of all that is holy, realize that you can't reduce the grind in the game by putting in repeatable grind quests.  I'm serious. 

Cut the XP needed to level, increase XP in orvr and remove the grind repeatable quests. 

Look, you're even putting a limit on how many times a player can even do each of those quests - doesn't that strike you as an unneeded step in the leveling process?

I applaud some of the changes you're going with, but damn man, that's not the right answer. 

Signed,

Stuck at 25. 

If you are stuck at 25 what are you doing?  Are you just doing pve?  I made it to 31 without even finishing one t3 area of quests.  Mind you I don't mind running scenario's alot though, and it in know way has felt like a grind to me.
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #46 on: October 10, 2008, 08:06:48 PM

Maybe focus tests aren't such a good idea after all.  awesome, for real

Still having fun. Haven't hit the unfun part yet. Hooray for the guild turtle?

Btw, anti-fanbois are just as annoying fanbois.  Someone's getting annoying. I won't say who.  

Not defending Mythic's response to all of this.  It's pretty poor.  But it's Mythic, we've seen this before.

*raises his hand*

in my defense though i get very very bored sometimes.

~a horrific, dark simulacrum that glares balefully at us, with evil intent.
Rasix
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Reply #47 on: October 10, 2008, 08:22:45 PM

Hah, I know you're a negative Nancy. I haven't forgotten AoC guild chat  Grin I did my fair share of bitching in that game also.

Not necessarily who I was referring to, but your candor is refreshing. 


-Rasix
Hawkbit
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Reply #48 on: October 10, 2008, 09:53:01 PM


If you are stuck at 25 what are you doing?  Are you just doing pve?  I made it to 31 without even finishing one t3 area of quests.  Mind you I don't mind running scenario's alot though, and it in know way has felt like a grind to me.

Well, I'm not entirely stuck at 25.  I've done Chpt 10-12 in both Elf and Humans - I have goofy play hours and scenarios don't pop as often during the day.  I tend to play in multiple, short shifts over the day and that's really not conducive to big rvr times. 

I'm entirely confused as to how you're 31 and not out of quests, especially if you don't roll scenarios a lot.  Explain, please.  Anything to change the grrrrrriiiind would be awesome. 
Evildrider
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Reply #49 on: October 11, 2008, 12:23:26 AM

You misunderstand me.. I scenario alot.. but it doesn't feel like a grind to me is what I meant.  Probably because I used to play ALOT of FPS with the same damn map all the time.  lol.  I actually had fun in Tor, even when I didn't have a knockback, although knockback did it make it a bit more fun. 

The XP boosts are nice now too.. I mean if you do say, Tor, and grab the quest for that and the kill player quest you are pretty much getting like another 6-7k on top of what you get in scenario.
Azazel
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Reply #50 on: October 11, 2008, 07:31:36 AM

I really hope they get it right, but threads like these simply illustrate why I haven't started yet, and don't intend to until WotLK hits the boring wall for me. Which will likely be in the first quarter of 2009 at the earliest.

The release of every MMOG that's not WoW has been a right royal clusterfuck. The release of WoW wasn't fucked per se, but they definately had their share of problems for months with server lag, freezes, and of course the queuedance. Before then, the week any EQ1 expansion pack was released, the game was a crashy, buggy mess. LOTRO seemed ok, technically, mostly.

So with this all in mind, expecting WAR to be a smooth and perfect launch was a little, let's say.. hopeful. But as a longtime MMO player and a longertime Warhammer player, I'm hoping they can work the bugs out, get past most of the technical and balance bugs in this paid beta period, and will have a pretty good game that's not especially grindy, is stable and able to do simple things like alt-tab without CTD. I bought a CE each for my wife and myself. I want the game to be at a point where I'd choose to pay for it before I crack them open and install them. If not, I'd hope I can make my money back from the limited edition excitingness of them to some Warhammer fanbois.

But a MMO on release? Not for me anymore. Ok, I'd trust Blizzard, but that's it.


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trias_e
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Reply #51 on: October 11, 2008, 07:46:01 AM

I'd say this game is better than WoW was at relaese tbh, but our standards for a good MMORPG release are always on the rise.  Well, our realistic standards I should say.  When WoW came out, it was technically worse than WAR, server stability was worse than WAR, and there were no battlegrounds and PvP was meaningless.  The only thing it did better was the solo grind to max level, which it did and will always do substantially better.
rk47
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Reply #52 on: October 11, 2008, 07:56:46 AM

I think the devs severely overrated their own scenarios. I mean fuck, at the current rate of EXP reward and requirements for T4 levels, i think it'll take me almost 70-90 scenario wins just to level from RvR. It's not healthy, I tell ya. Even my friend whom I introduced to the game went bonkers after finishing T1 doing nothing but Nordenwatch. He gave PQ a try and told me it reminded him of grinding (we cant' finish it with just two of us anyway, what's the point?) , he tried questing and found it dull (It's like a shitty WoW, dude!) since he got no mount. So we login, me on my runepriest and he's on bright wizard. We just sat at the warcamp, picking our noses while waiting for Morkaine to pop. That's all there to it.  why so serious?

Colonel Sanders is back in my wallet
Phunked
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Reply #53 on: October 11, 2008, 07:59:58 AM

Hah, I know you're a negative Nancy. I haven't forgotten AoC guild chat  Grin I did my fair share of bitching in that game also.

Not necessarily who I was referring to, but your candor is refreshing. 



It's me you hate isn't it.

I say it like it is though. Say it like it is.
trias_e
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Reply #54 on: October 11, 2008, 08:01:07 AM

I was thinking this game was robot jesus after the end of t1.  That's probably because all the pqs and open rvr were actually, you know, populated.  The problem your friend is having sounds like the easily forseeable problem of t1-2 being ghost towns after launch.  Or he just doesn't like the game.
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Reply #55 on: October 11, 2008, 05:13:17 PM

I'd say this game is better than WoW was at relaese tbh, but our standards for a good MMORPG release are always on the rise.  Well, our realistic standards I should say.  When WoW came out, it was technically worse than WAR, server stability was worse than WAR, and there were no battlegrounds and PvP was meaningless.  The only thing it did better was the solo grind to max level, which it did and will always do substantially better.

It was laggy, and sometimes the servers came down. But the actual client was smooth, didn't CTD, and with the exception of the rare broken quest or world server crash, I didn't have any issues playing it at all. With WoW, the grind was so heavily disguised that it felt like I was always going somewhere new and adventuring as I levelled up. I certainly wasn't repeating the same content in the same place to grind to the next level.


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slog
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Reply #56 on: October 11, 2008, 07:28:26 PM

I'd say this game is better than WoW was at relaese tbh, but our standards for a good MMORPG release are always on the rise.  Well, our realistic standards I should say.  When WoW came out, it was technically worse than WAR, server stability was worse than WAR, and there were no battlegrounds and PvP was meaningless.  The only thing it did better was the solo grind to max level, which it did and will always do substantially better.

It was laggy, and sometimes the servers came down. But the actual client was smooth, didn't CTD, and with the exception of the rare broken quest or world server crash, I didn't have any issues playing it at all. With WoW, the grind was so heavily disguised that it felt like I was always going somewhere new and adventuring as I levelled up. I certainly wasn't repeating the same content in the same place to grind to the next level.



What's the point in comparing WAR to WoW 4 years ago?  Isn't WAR competing against WoW as it is today?  Do we have to wait 4 years before WAR fixes all it's issues?

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rk47
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Reply #57 on: October 11, 2008, 08:16:57 PM

Eh that's a pretty fair point imo. I think Mythic should really delay the game a bit longer before releasing (I blame EA). Yes the PVP is fun, but the grind isn't. Especially when most of you abilities are tied to levels and map varieties are really lacking. I think people will suffer a burn out at T3 if all they keep doing is Tor Anroc.

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Azazel
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Reply #58 on: October 12, 2008, 06:34:24 PM

What's the point in comparing WAR to WoW 4 years ago?  Isn't WAR competing against WoW as it is today?  Do we have to wait 4 years before WAR fixes all it's issues?

Of course they're competing with WoW as it stands today. I wasn't talking about that aspect though.

I was talking about release issues that MMOs invariably have and not playing WAR yet to give them time to patch them out and get the game running decently (before I start paying to be playing).

http://azazelx.wordpress.com/ - My Miniatures and Hobby Blog.
tazelbain
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Reply #59 on: October 12, 2008, 06:53:39 PM

Seems that there is a lot more T3 RvR this week end.  Maybe the +50% really did help.

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Reply #60 on: October 12, 2008, 08:39:23 PM

(I blame EA)

Mark Jacobs' on AoC launching when it did:

Quote
“When they looked at ['Age of Conan'] when they were ready to launch, I can’t imagine how they didn’t see the issues that other people saw. According to their annual reports, they had plenty of money. They should’ve looked at it and said, ‘We need to delay this game.’ There are probably reasons I’m not aware of… but I think that’s their biggest sin.”

How many times was WAR delayed?

I'm all for bashing the publisher when they do something stupid, but EA held off launching WAR several times and if Jacob's is going to chat about the other competition launching too soon, he needs to take the criticism about that potentially happening for his title too.


Wasted
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Reply #61 on: October 12, 2008, 08:53:21 PM

I was thinking this game was robot jesus after the end of t1.  That's probably because all the pqs and open rvr were actually, you know, populated.  The problem your friend is having sounds like the easily forseeable problem of t1-2 being ghost towns after launch.  Or he just doesn't like the game.

The turning point for me was when I hit level 12 and still had tonnes of teir one quests to do, and that was just in the one race area, I hadn't even barely touched the other two except to explore the rvr areas and battlecamps.  Not being able to do scenarios while questing just made the pve seem so much worse than it probably is.  So I skipped the rest of the quests and the completist/questor in me switched off.  Now I have no connection to the lore and the land and I'm wondering why the hell this is really a MMO and not just a lobby and scenario deal only with the keep areas being implemented as some type of long running scenario. That the majority of the quests quickly become, 'make sure you don't miss this PQ and this PQ' makes it all feel more shallow as well to me.
That all the 'extraneous' things that make it world like Mail and AH are laggy at best, and not working half the time further divorce me from the world.

I probably wont be subbing past the first month.  I have fun in scenarios but I don't really feel a connection with my main.  I would probably alt more, I don't mind playing through the t1 scenarios with different classes to try them again, but going through the same early quests got tedious, and I did feel the pressure to pick a class and progress otherwise I would miss out on leveling with 'the pack'.
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Reply #62 on: October 12, 2008, 09:26:36 PM

I love the quests that take you to the PQ.

I hate finding those PQs completely empty.

Tmon
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Reply #63 on: October 12, 2008, 10:25:58 PM


The PQs in Tier 1 were fairly decently populated and I finished most of them with groups I found within minutes of logging in.   In tier 2 I think I completed 2 PQs.  The rest I just ground until I could pick up the influence rewards.  I just wandered into tier 3 land and I'm not sure I really want to do any PVE at all but I keep reading that the best PVP gear is not available otherwise.  If the only way I can continue to be productive in PVP is to grind out 10,000 more influence at 100 points a pop then I'm done on the 20th.
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Reply #64 on: October 13, 2008, 05:52:31 AM

Tier 3 PQs never, ever attract spontaneous groups. It's guild groups or nothing. In fact, nothing about the gameworld is spontaneous from Tier 3 onward.

I agree that it's also increasingly baffling to me why this is a world at all. The economy doesn't matter, and if it did, the painfully bad AH interface might be important but as it stands it's irrelevant. The world itself is even less dynamic and responsive than WoW's, which is saying something--particularly because there's some reason to think that it could be, if they had implemented RvR in a very "world-like" manner. I normally read quests and find their details interesting: I don't think I've read a quest since level 1, really. None of them have any twists, their stories don't matter, and the mobs are all more or less identical. I don't think I've seen any mob behavior that mattered at all, and the name or type of the mob makes no difference: a level 27 peasant is the same fight as a level 27 warrior, which is really just a complicated variation on having to kill butterflies and rats. It's a dead, dead world that occasionally comes to life because live people show up and play against you.

RvR on my server is very weird: it comes to life for brief periods of intensity and then it dies again. Because WAR isn't a world and has such a narrow base of satisfying gameplay, if things are popping either in the world RvR or in scenarios, that's somewhat fun. If that's not happening, it's boring as hell. Since you can't predict, at least on my server, when the former condition is in play, you have a lot of boring to do while waiting for the unpredictable fun to start. In WoW, if one thing isn't happening, there's usually another thing to do. Even going shopping on the AH is kind of fun in WoW for twinking alts; for WAR even that's pointless.

With open-world RvR, another problem I see is that people are *so* hungry for it that when Order does initiate something, they often get steamrolled because swarms of Destro players show up hoping for a long, fun battle. About 15 Order players methodically turned the RvR objectives in T3 Avelorn and moved to the keep yesterday; meanwhile an alliance of 6 Destro guilds was assembling at the warcamp, about 25 players strong. We got to them just as they started with the battering ram, and they were more or less one-shotted. They gave up and went to do other things. A couple of crumbs when everyone was hoping for a meal, and I think partly because the incentive to stay and try to fight is so lacking--what would they get if they somehow managed to succeed? You can do without access to renown gear because it's so poorly itemized, and renown training only needs to be done once in a blue moon anyway.
Phunked
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Reply #65 on: October 13, 2008, 11:52:45 AM

Tier 3 PQs never, ever attract spontaneous groups. It's guild groups or nothing. In fact, nothing about the gameworld is spontaneous from Tier 3 onward.

I agree that it's also increasingly baffling to me why this is a world at all. The economy doesn't matter, and if it did, the painfully bad AH interface might be important but as it stands it's irrelevant. The world itself is even less dynamic and responsive than WoW's, which is saying something--particularly because there's some reason to think that it could be, if they had implemented RvR in a very "world-like" manner. I normally read quests and find their details interesting: I don't think I've read a quest since level 1, really. None of them have any twists, their stories don't matter, and the mobs are all more or less identical. I don't think I've seen any mob behavior that mattered at all, and the name or type of the mob makes no difference: a level 27 peasant is the same fight as a level 27 warrior, which is really just a complicated variation on having to kill butterflies and rats. It's a dead, dead world that occasionally comes to life because live people show up and play against you.

RvR on my server is very weird: it comes to life for brief periods of intensity and then it dies again. Because WAR isn't a world and has such a narrow base of satisfying gameplay, if things are popping either in the world RvR or in scenarios, that's somewhat fun. If that's not happening, it's boring as hell. Since you can't predict, at least on my server, when the former condition is in play, you have a lot of boring to do while waiting for the unpredictable fun to start. In WoW, if one thing isn't happening, there's usually another thing to do. Even going shopping on the AH is kind of fun in WoW for twinking alts; for WAR even that's pointless.

With open-world RvR, another problem I see is that people are *so* hungry for it that when Order does initiate something, they often get steamrolled because swarms of Destro players show up hoping for a long, fun battle. About 15 Order players methodically turned the RvR objectives in T3 Avelorn and moved to the keep yesterday; meanwhile an alliance of 6 Destro guilds was assembling at the warcamp, about 25 players strong. We got to them just as they started with the battering ram, and they were more or less one-shotted. They gave up and went to do other things. A couple of crumbs when everyone was hoping for a meal, and I think partly because the incentive to stay and try to fight is so lacking--what would they get if they somehow managed to succeed? You can do without access to renown gear because it's so poorly itemized, and renown training only needs to be done once in a blue moon anyway.

You can get both at your capital city anyways, which makes the keeps rather useless as it stands.

Not to mention that holding one is insanely costly for no real reason. Hi2u money sink? In a game where money doesn't matter at all? What the hell are they doing with that anyways. Why even bother to have currency when the only thing you can do with it is dump it away mindlessly.
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Reply #66 on: October 14, 2008, 07:34:29 AM

Regardless, I'd like to see how the open RVR end game plays out when lots of people are involved.  That's the meat of this game IMO.
If it continues like this, it will never happen.

Or it will happen to those who endure to reach the level cap.

Someone doesn't see this as DAoC all over again? It's a different grind, but it's also a similar one.

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Reply #67 on: October 14, 2008, 07:39:14 AM

It is different as in 1/10 as long.  So, yea, I can see a few more people going through it.  I am part of a rather casual guild, and the majority of our playerbase is nearing 28.  28 IS the End-Game.  You have access to all of the T4 content by then, especially the RvR stuff.  And, if casual players can get near 28 in 3 weeks?  Well, I would say that is a pretty low grind.  Honestly, it is the people taking LONGER to level that are generally reporting more fun on our server (Ostermark) because population balance is better for them.

Add to that the fact that End-game PvP will run Very well even if you only have ~200 per side playing in T4, and the question becomes not "will the game be fun at T4", but "can they still make money with the number of people still playing".  Honestly I hope our server DOES drop in pop.  If all of the people playing from T1-4 were to end up in T4... I don't think the servers could handle it.
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Reply #68 on: October 14, 2008, 07:58:41 AM

I think the burn out would less if T1-T3 RvR was even 80% as rewarding as scenerios.

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Reply #69 on: October 14, 2008, 08:54:57 AM

Order on our server has started exclusively queueing for Black Fire Basin because they have a significant advantage when the scenario involves static defense (heavy use of engineering stuff around the flag so that they don't have to constantly watch for someone trying to take it from the rear while a big attack wave comes in the front) plus their defending wall is superior to Destruction's in that scenario. Destruction understandably hates Black Fire Basin, and not just because they have a disadvantage--because the smart play is to turtle down in response to Order turtling, and then hope to have a few more kills if and when they come to try and grab the Destro flag.

So that's pretty much it for T3 last couple of nights. No open-world RvR, just a few rounds of Black Fire Basin before Destro players take it off their queue list and then nobody has any for the rest of the night.

Unless that changes? The end.
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