Two hand, or not two hand?

[Kail]

I'm hearing a bunch of people on this board talking about Ironbreakers using two-handers... I'm just curious about why you would do that.

In WoW, using a slow two hander is useful because there are abilities like Sinister Strike or Mortal Strike which cause your weapon to swing instantly, no matter how slow it is, so high damage per swing is useful there.

In WAR, if that's the case, I'm not seeing it.  Special attacks look like they scale off of strength, and maybe weapon skill.  So the main difference is the autoattack DPS, which seems reeeeeeally small (At level 18, if I'm recalling correctly, I have just under 2,000 hp, and the difference between a one hander and a two hander is like fifteen DPS or something).  And the down side is that you lose your shield, so you can't block, and can't use any shield abilities (like the knockdown).

So, obviously, it seems like I'm missing or misunderstanding something.  What's the tradeoff between shields and two handers?

[Zetor]

- All damage scales off weapon damage. It's not a "100% scale" like MS from WOW, but close enough.
- IBs get an ability that increases autoattack speed by 50% if they're hit by magic while it's active. With a 2h, that's very significant.
- The best "ironbreaker burst" ability [cave-in] requires a 2-hander, and Greataxe Mastery implies using one too.
- You get an unconditional knockdown relatively early in the Brotherhood line [Punishing Knock], which devalues Shield of Reprisal, as both of them are on the same diminishing-returns timer, only punishing knock is on-demand and doesn't need people to hit you.

edit: There's a definite difference in killing / burst ability when using a 2h vs a 1h+shield. I prefer 1h+shield myself... but still use a 2h, for now at least. :P


-- Z.

[Oz]

Kail, maybe its a difference in what tier you are in, but i find i do more or equal damage with my axe+shield as i do with my 2hander axe.  So i tend to go axe+shield for the utility. 

[tazelbain]

I don't understand either.  It may have something to do with that ability that doubles your attack rate if you get attacked with a spell.  I noticed that tanks who focus on fighting other tanks do good on the dps ranking but I am not sure that helps the team that much.

[Zetor]

Just tested it, killed two mobs one after the other, with 100 grudge, no inspiring attack and a full 75% armor break on the enemy.

Heavy blow initial damage with a lv22 blue bugged* 1h: 169
Heavy blow initial damage with a lv23 green 2h: 195

*bugged meaning it has a LOT of stats on it: 41str/27toughness/21ws.. 1-handers typically have a lot less


-- Z.

[Threash]

For SM at least sword and board is definitely much more effective, even for dps.  The 2h dps path is just a huge mess and not worth going down atm.

[Hawkbit]

For SM at least sword and board is definitely much more effective, even for dps.  The 2h dps path is just a huge mess and not worth going down atm.

It's strange... I wanted to roll a SM that went 2hdr and was all dps.  So I went khaine and was seeing 15,000-20,000 damage done in a TA match. 

In talking to Intolerance and Kirth, they talked me into going Hoeth 2hdr.  Now, I took things past that and went Hoeth sword and board...  I'm consistently pulling 30,000-40,000 damage done now.  It's insane how broken 2hdr is for SMs.

[Lakov_Sanite]

It's the same for chosen as well, two hander just means you die 100% quicker and do maybe 10% more dmg.

[Phunked]

IBs use 2 handers for a lot of reasons:

1. You are typically ignored in PvP. If not, you've already done your job, because by the time they kill your tank level defenses (shield or no shield, I live 3x longer than a BW), your BW buddy has lit them on fire.

2. Most people will ignore you, trying to deny you extra grudge to smash them with. Else you'll get chain rooted. Thus your ability to tank is greatly reduced: roots, knockbacks and window dragging make physical walling very hard. If you aren't able to keep people off your healers by being in their face and making them smack your shield, you may as well kill them with the 2 hander, which can output very decent DPS (about the same as a mDPS class, if specced right). Most of your defensive buffs are passive anyways, and you can and should use them as a 2hander.

3. To get the single best (and required) tactic, you have to spec into the 2 hander lined for runed etchings, which adds an aoe knockback to your 10 second timer aoe damage ability. If you're going to spec into the 2 hander tree which ups your DPS output a lot, it seems counterintuitive to use a shield with shitty skills you aren't specced for. Also, did I meantion you can do great damage, ignore armor and eat clothies?

4. 2handers do about 20% more damage, provide much more burst (big crits) and scale much better the Stubborn as Stone, which for 5 grudge every seconds gives a 50% melee haste as long as you get hit by a spell. This makes you very capable of killing enemy casters very fast, which is what you want to be doing in the first place.

5. An IB in general needs a healer support if getting DPSed, just like any other class. As a tank, you can live longer while being beat on, but assuming you take 20 sec to die and do 20k damage, I'd rather die in 10k and do 60k damage. It's the difference between not being killable and not killing anyone (no you will never burst anyone down with a sword and board combo as an IB, totally different for other tanks maybe) as opposed to being sightly more mortal but actually a threat on the battlefield. Passive damage sponge vs active threat is an easy choice. A sword and board IB is not a threat at all, and puts no pressure on the enemy, beyond a generic knockback all IBs get every 20 sec.

Oh and soloing is a lot easier with a 2hander. And you can tank just fine, assuming you have some gear to swap.

Hope this illuminated the difference and reasons behind going smashy spec.

NOTE: in TA when 90% of my kills are from lava gold, I will occasionally use a shield, just so I can lava gold longer. This is because my actual dps output is meaningless, as I get 1 free kill for every 20 sec of living. It's not a good idea to run up if you can't knockback yourself (since you'll get punted into lava), so the melee dps paradigm sucks there. Its an issue with the scenario, not the spec.

[rk47]

For SM at least sword and board is definitely much more effective, even for dps.  The 2h dps path is just a huge mess and not worth going down atm.

It's strange... I wanted to roll a SM that went 2hdr and was all dps.  So I went khaine and was seeing 15,000-20,000 damage done in a TA match. 

In talking to Intolerance and Kirth, they talked me into going Hoeth 2hdr.  Now, I took things past that and went Hoeth sword and board...  I'm consistently pulling 30,000-40,000 damage done now.  It's insane how broken 2hdr is for SMs.

The problem with the Khaine tree is that Ether Dance basically lock you out of normal attacks and other things while swinging that retarded sword for 3 second, which may not even go through its full cycle since a knockdown/stun will stop the damage tick for a full Ether Dance.

The tactic for 10-20% crit rate for each balance state is broken. You cannot gain these bonuses because the moment you hit Ether Dance, it goes back to Neutral Balance. Phoenix Swing is crap for Both PVE & PVP.

You can go 2 hander path for Hoeth in scenarios with better dps because all you spirit attacks gain a boost. Ensorcelled Blow + Agony is all spirit damage. Wrath of Hoeth makes it hit harder. Until you get dazzling blow, it is actually more effective to finish one cycle of EB + Quick Incision + WoH followed by repeated EB spam. Since Heaven's blade is fixed, you may also want to turn that on as well to debuff their Spirit Resistance. You'll be surprised when you suddenly crit 300-400 EB per second instead of bothering with the balance bullshit mechanics. Dragon Talon is a waste of time since you're not going Vaul only use it when people are actually wailing on your healers or clothies for the 20% dmg debuff. Stick with Hoeth till you ge Whispering Wind and suddenly you waste Sorceress like nothing. Aethyric Armour is also amazing since every point on Hoeth you gain more armour, the 5% disrupt means mages have a harder time landing their spells on you. You're basically the mage killer of Order, working side by side with Witch Hunters.


This build is quite finished at lvl 31
http://www.wardb.com/career.aspx?id=17#0:0:0:0:13:8352:25:818:9070:9047:9045:14124:14125::606:607:9058:613
And is very flexible for PVE / PVP. If you're on defensive, put on a shield. If you're attacking, switch to two handers before going into combat. Until they fixed Ether Dance & Phoenix Strike, Khaine is useless.

Tactics wise:
Ensorcelled Agony is amazing
Century of Training triggers off Wrath of Hoeth too (!!!)
Gust of Wind is Tor Anroc's most fucking annoying tactic featuring a 30 ft knockback aoe every 10 sec.
Potent Enchantments is attained at lvl 31. And probably improve your dps as a whole.

Hoeth for life imo.

[Lantyssa]

How does Aethyric Armour work, and how long does it last?  The tooltip doesn't mention duration, just that it takes you into normal stance.  I was thinking of doing a combined Hoeth/Vaul to get nice defense while shredding people with spirit damage.

[rk47]

30 mins . it's basically permanent armour bonus. Where the fuck can you get 500 armour bonus buff elsewhere? 

Oh also, look at this:


Dwarf Chapter 17. 

[Righ]

Uh. That's broken. Get it while you can.

[kildorn]

There are a few broken PQ rewards, there's also a 2h that shadow warriors can use O-o.

Mythic's itemization team on crack? NEVER.

This is the team that kept giving classes items that cast a weaker version of a buff than the class had on themselves (power 3 on a class specific minstrel ring! dude, we all have power 5...)

[squirrel]

For SM at least sword and board is definitely much more effective, even for dps.  The 2h dps path is just a huge mess and not worth going down atm.

It's strange... I wanted to roll a SM that went 2hdr and was all dps.  So I went khaine and was seeing 15,000-20,000 damage done in a TA match. 

In talking to Intolerance and Kirth, they talked me into going Hoeth 2hdr.  Now, I took things past that and went Hoeth sword and board...  I'm consistently pulling 30,000-40,000 damage done now.  It's insane how broken 2hdr is for SMs.

I've done over 64,000 damage in MT with Sword and Board. I'm Hoeth and use AE a lot. That was my best dmg scenario though, not typical as I didn't die once. But yeah, there's really no reason I can find to use a 2H.