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Zetor
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Reply #875 on: November 28, 2012, 12:31:52 AM

Funny, I seem to remember the Faction Champions fight in TotGC being one of the most universally-loathed boss encounters in WoW's history.
Not a coincidence.  why so serious? I personally loved the encounter (and the similar 5-man "pvp-ish" encounters), but I admit I'm a crazy outlier in this.

rk47
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Reply #876 on: November 28, 2012, 12:53:58 AM

I always thought "creative raiding" lead to emergency patches and bans.  why so serious?
In my experience most MMOs do not appreciate creative ways of defeating raid encounters...

This is my thought as well. I took a long break from classic MMO and visited GW2...eh...everyone's being 'creative' is a given.
The mobs are certainly 'creative' enough. Doesn't seem to be an aggro table anywhere. Fuckers hit at random, and hit hard. No targeted healing means no blaming of healers.
And the trash are really trash. Trash that's just there to slow you down, and barely reward you. Dodge mechanics that seems to reward paying attention, except with all the spell effects going off at melee range (can't be turned off), how anyone can dodge well is dependent on their eye tolerance level. I certainly can't keep up with 5 AoEs going off every 5 seconds.

Till this day, I still wondered if standing still in Twilight Arbor, shooting at tree boss, dodging red circle every 15 seconds is the 'legit' way of doing it. I tried walking up to the tree boss before, only to get insta-gibbed.

Then Citadel of Flame, where people were supposed to survive waves of mobs, while taking out just acolytes during an event turned into - 'ok hit the acolyte, then run out of the room, till they respawn, then hit them again.'

Like I said, I'm not expecting static, tank n spank, but most of GW2 encounters were too 'creative'. There's always that feeling of randomness attached to it.

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Falconeer
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Reply #877 on: November 28, 2012, 01:00:08 AM

Yes, and FPS games are putting the crosshair over the man and push button.

You love to miss the point where your crosshair can go in a million different places of the screen, instead than just on the enemy, before you can push that one on/off (fire/nonfire) button. The skill is actually trying to make sure the crosshair is on that one pixel that is the enemy instead of on any of the other million ones on screen. While moving.

In both games you push one or a few more digital (so, just on and off) button to hit and perform, but in FPSs your mouse hand has to fight every single millisecond not to be in the wrong part of the screen whereas 99.9% of it is the wrong part of the screen. And this is while you and your enemies are moving and you probably are too.

That concept stays true for games like Dark Souls (more) and Tera (less) too, although to a much much lower degree than FPS. That's why Guild Wars 2 is a welcome bridge towards a different playstyle and different skill ceilings. It's not even the dodge function in GW2 that raises the bar, it's the fact that you can miss attacks, and waste resources, if you are not positioned properly at all times. Far from perfect, but a step in the way of more active and unpredictable kinds of combat (see rk47 post right above this...).

I'll say it again, all mechanics (hotbar tab targeted, targetless, pure action, RTS, FPS) require skill, and they certainly are all cool for different people. I am just saying that some games require such a constant and free-hand/free-form amount of player input that the room for mistakes or for sheer levels of technique is insanely high, as opposed to games where you mostly have a limited amount of switches and you just have to make sure to flip them in the required order and timing. Still skill, but the skill ceiling is lower.

So when we talk about PvE in MMORPGs, and just PvE because PvP is a different story, some of us would love for the skill ceiling to be raised a bit, especially in solo playing.

Kageru
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Reply #878 on: November 28, 2012, 03:26:35 AM


It's actually mostly from Yahtzee.

It's just a difference between twitch skill and tactical skill. One of them is more adrenal and one of them generally slower moving and more thought out, especially because you are supposed to integrate with others.

We'll see both, there's lots of MMOFPS on the way, but I think most of them will be terrible because a lot of attributes that make a good shooter don't gain from an MMO environment. And much of what makes an MMO interest, like co-operating, complex strategies and character synergies doesn't gain much from twitch. Indeed it tends to make execution really random, lag dependent and annoying. Which has been proven many times when they've had extremely gamey mechanics.

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Draegan
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Reply #879 on: November 28, 2012, 06:27:00 AM

Yes, and FPS games are putting the crosshair over the man and push button.

You love to miss the point where your crosshair can go in a million different places of the screen, instead than just on the enemy, before you can push that one on/off (fire/nonfire) button. The skill is actually trying to make sure the crosshair is on that one pixel that is the enemy instead of on any of the other million ones on screen. While moving.

In both games you push one or a few more digital (so, just on and off) button to hit and perform, but in FPSs your mouse hand has to fight every single millisecond not to be in the wrong part of the screen whereas 99.9% of it is the wrong part of the screen. And this is while you and your enemies are moving and you probably are too.

That concept stays true for games like Dark Souls (more) and Tera (less) too, although to a much much lower degree than FPS. That's why Guild Wars 2 is a welcome bridge towards a different playstyle and different skill ceilings. It's not even the dodge function in GW2 that raises the bar, it's the fact that you can miss attacks, and waste resources, if you are not positioned properly at all times. Far from perfect, but a step in the way of more active and unpredictable kinds of combat (see rk47 post right above this...).

I'll say it again, all mechanics (hotbar tab targeted, targetless, pure action, RTS, FPS) require skill, and they certainly are all cool for different people. I am just saying that some games require such a constant and free-hand/free-form amount of player input that the room for mistakes or for sheer levels of technique is insanely high, as opposed to games where you mostly have a limited amount of switches and you just have to make sure to flip them in the required order and timing. Still skill, but the skill ceiling is lower.

So when we talk about PvE in MMORPGs, and just PvE because PvP is a different story, some of us would love for the skill ceiling to be raised a bit, especially in solo playing.


It boils down to this, when you see Dodge, Miss, Parry, Block, Hit in your combat log, is it a formula that predicted whether or not you dodged/parry etc?  Or was it player input?

That's the basic argument. No one is saying there aren't some super hard fuck raid encounters in games that require massive intense concentration from 20 people.  Traditionally, a very small percentage of the game actually deals with that kind of gameplay.  Like Margalis said, we're talking about core mechanics.  In Dark Souls/Tera it's part of gameplay every section, in WOW the action stuff has to be scripted in.
Margalis
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Reply #880 on: November 28, 2012, 06:40:21 AM

Also I would point out that FPS is a genre I don't particular like and the idea of an FPS MMO doesn't appeal to me all that much. Twitch does not mean first person shooter, nor does more combat depth even mean twitch. I just want to find the activity I spend most of my time doing engaging.

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Draegan
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Reply #881 on: November 28, 2012, 06:44:15 AM

Also I would point out that FPS is a genre I don't particular like and the idea of an FPS MMO doesn't appeal to me all that much. Twitch does not mean first person shooter, nor does more combat depth even mean twitch. I just want to find the activity I spend most of my time doing engaging.

Exactly, I'm not an FPS fan much at all.  I'll probably buy one every 3-4 years (I think the last two I bought was CoD2 and BF3?).

But the key point quoted above is bolded.  In some games I find the action of killing 10-15 bears fun because the action of killing is enjoyable.  In WOW the act of killing 10-15 bears is boring as shit, but you do it because you get the payday at the end.
Kageru
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Reply #882 on: November 28, 2012, 06:49:46 AM


Nah, you kill the same mob with the same tactics for a hundred hours it gets boring in either. See borderlands for proof of that.

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Draegan
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Reply #883 on: November 28, 2012, 06:53:56 AM

Well no fucking shit.  You do anything for a few hundred hours you're going to be bored.
Merusk
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Reply #884 on: November 28, 2012, 07:15:22 AM

And therein lies the crux of everyone's bitch.

Put in all the things you guys think you want, you'll still complain because you never grok that you've just done it for a hundred hours prior to that point.

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eldaec
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Reply #885 on: November 28, 2012, 07:21:45 AM

That is a big part of why MMOGs ideally need some worldy elements, be they crafting, resource gathering, auction houses, whatever. You need something for players to divert into while still existing in the game's social structure.

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Rendakor
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Reply #886 on: November 28, 2012, 09:04:23 AM

Well no fucking shit.  You do anything for a few hundred hours you're going to be bored.
Then what's the point of an MMO focusing heavily on a better combat system if the novelty will have worn off before you hit max level?

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Draegan
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Reply #887 on: November 28, 2012, 10:52:15 AM

Well no fucking shit.  You do anything for a few hundred hours you're going to be bored.
Then what's the point of an MMO focusing heavily on a better combat system if the novelty will have worn off before you hit max level?

Are you being obtuse on purpose?

While having a more engaging combat system adds more entertainment for me, you still have to have a fucking game built around it.
Phred
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Reply #888 on: November 28, 2012, 01:03:56 PM

I think GW2's fractals of the mist with their increasing difficulty (and reward) might be "the next thing" in dungeons if it catches on.

Sheesh let's hope not. Such a divisive design is insane. The devs realized this too late and are now scrambling trying to figure out a solution that doesn't fracture their user base even worse than it currently is.
Lantyssa
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Reply #889 on: November 28, 2012, 01:16:54 PM

The mistake there was making personal difficulty segment you from other players.  Or playing with others prevent you from advancing.  Either way.  The fractals themselves are really fun.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
Zetor
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Reply #890 on: November 28, 2012, 01:31:52 PM

FWIW I'm completely ok with running low-level fractals even if/when I get to level 30 or whatever the leet doods are going for (just as I was ok with running low-level task forces on my max-level incarnate defender in COH instead of the incarnate taskforces). I'm pretty sure this is an anomaly when compared to random_diku_player_01, though.  awesome, for real

satael
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Reply #891 on: November 28, 2012, 01:37:04 PM

I think GW2's fractals of the mist with their increasing difficulty (and reward) might be "the next thing" in dungeons if it catches on.

Sheesh let's hope not. Such a divisive design is insane. The devs realized this too late and are now scrambling trying to figure out a solution that doesn't fracture their user base even worse than it currently is.


The difficulty level should be more up to the players, not just according to the lowest one in the group. What I meant was that by ever-increasing difficulty you create (the illusion of) more content with relatively little work and somrthing that will probably challenge even the most hardcore players (while giving the highest difficulty level achieved as something to brag about)
Rokal
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Reply #892 on: November 28, 2012, 01:40:40 PM

I want to make a distinction between base gameplay mechanics and individual boss gimmicks. Flying around like in Starfox, dodging bouncing balls, etc, are not base game mechanics in WoW, they are boss gimmicks. (I'm using gimmicks in the non-pejorative sense) It's cool that there is a boss where you have to dodge left or right 5 times in a row I guess, but dodging attacks like that matters in what percentage of WoW encounters? 0.01%? In a game where dodging is part of the core combat system you can dodge a variety of attacks from a variety of enemies at almost any time - not that there is one specific enemy that has what is a basically a QTE built into it.

This is what it comes down to for me as well. All the fights Zetor detailed were loads of fun, but they represent a very small amount of the content in WoW (or any MMO). I agree that the raid content in WoW still offers enough refreshing mechanics to make up for base gameplay that has gotten stale, but how does that help you if you aren't raiding? SWTOR and Rift may have awesome raid content, but the only thing 99.9% of players are going to experience is the boring game that comes before that. The good part of the game that doesn't put you to sleep can't come after 50-90 levels and hundreds of hours of boring static combat if this genre wants to grow rather than decline.

Creating a combat system that is fun and refreshing from level 1 is the next logical step, not adding distractions to leveling content (similar to raiding) that attempt to make you forgot how boring what you are doing actually is.
Malakili
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Reply #893 on: November 28, 2012, 01:42:35 PM

Well no fucking shit.  You do anything for a few hundred hours you're going to be bored.

Except that this isn't true.  I played way more Counter Strike than that without ever getting bored.  Hell, I Might still play 1.6 if I hadn't had a gaming hiatus for a few years at its height and only come back to gaming after source was out.  If you include source and now GO, I've been playing Counter Strike for literally over a decade and I've never grown "bored" of it.  I play other games sure, for the sake of variety, but it is always installed, and more or less regularly played for me.  Same thing with Starcraft / Starcraft 2.  If you include TFC/TF2 in the mix, it is also another one with thousands of hours (and if TF2 hasn't gone looney tunes with the weapons, I'd probably still be playing it regularly).  It just plain isn't so that games MUST get boring.  They get boring when they are only fun for their content, but not their mechanics - which is what this whole discussion is about.
Phred
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Reply #894 on: November 28, 2012, 01:51:14 PM



You love to miss the point where your crosshair can go in a million different places of the screen, instead than just on the enemy,


I suppose that would be a problem, if you were a fucking spastic.
Draegan
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Reply #895 on: November 28, 2012, 02:27:31 PM

Well no fucking shit.  You do anything for a few hundred hours you're going to be bored.

Except that this isn't true.  I played way more Counter Strike than that without ever getting bored.  Hell, I Might still play 1.6 if I hadn't had a gaming hiatus for a few years at its height and only come back to gaming after source was out.  If you include source and now GO, I've been playing Counter Strike for literally over a decade and I've never grown "bored" of it.  I play other games sure, for the sake of variety, but it is always installed, and more or less regularly played for me.  Same thing with Starcraft / Starcraft 2.  If you include TFC/TF2 in the mix, it is also another one with thousands of hours (and if TF2 hasn't gone looney tunes with the weapons, I'd probably still be playing it regularly).  It just plain isn't so that games MUST get boring.  They get boring when they are only fun for their content, but not their mechanics - which is what this whole discussion is about.

 swamp poop

Right, so you missed the whole point.

Hint: I'm not saying playing a game for hundreds of hours automatically gets boring.
Rokal
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Reply #896 on: November 28, 2012, 02:31:37 PM


Nah, you kill the same mob with the same tactics for a hundred hours it gets boring in either. See borderlands for proof of that.

It's possible Borderlands is actually just a bland game, and that the combat system can't save it from eventually becoming boring. I don't think anyone here has been arguing that a good combat system automatically makes a good game, though it's certainly a part of it.
Kageru
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Reply #897 on: November 28, 2012, 02:53:06 PM


Perhaps we can think of other twitchy MMO's where that doesn't save them. How's Firefall Red 5 going?

I mean is dodge in GW2 actually "fun"? Not particularly to my mind. It just means I'm expected to spot what are often extremely ambiguous "you should dodge now" animations.

Except that this isn't true.  I played way more Counter Strike than that without ever getting bored.

PvP works somewhat differently because the other players add a lot of variation and complexity. Plus the rounds are generally short so you get the satisfaction of "you ownzored!" to keep you motivated. It's also partly why planetside is ultimately unsatisfying.

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Malakili
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Reply #898 on: November 28, 2012, 03:51:58 PM


PvP works somewhat differently because the other players add a lot of variation and complexity. Plus the rounds are generally short so you get the satisfaction of "you ownzored!" to keep you motivated. It's also partly why planetside is ultimately unsatisfying.

True, but AI is always getting better.  I cited Darkfall a few pages back - the monsters in that game act in much more interesting ways than your typical MMORPG AI. Even the ones who do nothing more than swing an axe will run around a bit, go get friends to help, etc.  That has more interesting combat as well, although as I mentioned in my other post, it is a bit buggy/wonky at times, at least when I was playing it.  I'm not saying Darkfall is the perfect model for MMORPG combat, but it strikes me as an obvious example in which PvE content was a lot more interesting due to both the combat mechanics and the AI which made things more unpredictable.  These concepts could certainly be improved upon and used in other games. 
Kageru
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Reply #899 on: November 28, 2012, 05:42:25 PM

To you interesting, to me incredibly annoying and tedious to solo because they kite all over the place and share aggro while still having the typical NPC large health pools. Not that I played it for long.

Since a lot of the pleasure in MMO's is in refining execution some number of people will not find that an improvement. Though it made sense in Darkfall because the PvE was terrible and meant to be training for PvP.

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Malakili
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Reply #900 on: November 28, 2012, 05:50:46 PM

To you interesting, to me incredibly annoying and tedious to solo because they kite all over the place and share aggro while still having the typical NPC large health pools. Not that I played it for long.

Since a lot of the pleasure in MMO's is in refining execution some number of people will not find that an improvement. Though it made sense in Darkfall because the PvE was terrible and meant to be training for PvP.


Well, I'm not saying it was perfect, I am just saying that there is some precedent for AI that works differently and that there is nothing about the genre that means the AI has to work the way it conventionally does. 
Draegan
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Reply #901 on: November 28, 2012, 09:00:40 PM


Perhaps we can think of other twitchy MMO's where that doesn't save them.

There haven't been any good ones.  TERA was a terrible game but it's combat made the game actually fun to play and kept me interested far longer than the game should have.  All it did though was show me that I could use some arcade action in my MMOs.

edit to add:

Quote

I mean is dodge in GW2 actually "fun"? Not particularly to my mind. It just means I'm expected to spot what are often extremely ambiguous "you should dodge now" animations.

Yes it is fun.  When I went back to play the Rift expansion I kept hitting my dodge button.  Just like any other arcade/action game.  You dodge to avoid an attack.  But you're getting too meta and picking one aspect and thinking that's the whole thing.  It's simply not just "dodge" its a culmination of things.

In GW2:
I can dodge and get out of the way.
I can swing a weapon without a target and do damage.
I can turn my character slightly and miss with an attack. (sometimes)
If someone runs in front of me they might get hit by my attack instead of my target.

Those are just a few things. and GW2's system is only a hybrid.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2012, 09:05:44 PM by Draegan »
Margalis
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Reply #902 on: November 28, 2012, 11:51:39 PM

From what I played of Tera it's a pretty terrible game outside of combat. Not really fair to point at a game that does nearly everything poorly as proof that the one thing it does well is a problem.

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Draegan
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Reply #903 on: November 29, 2012, 06:50:59 AM

From what I played of Tera it's a pretty terrible game outside of combat. Not really fair to point at a game that does nearly everything poorly as proof that the one thing it does well is a problem.

I don't understand.  I'm just pointing out that the combat in TERA is what kept me playing the game after the first 5 minutes of trying it.  What that says to me is that if a studio took the twitch combat of TERA and built an actual decent game around it, then it would be awesome.
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Reply #904 on: November 29, 2012, 07:06:59 AM

Looks to me like you two (we three) agree.

Draegan
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Reply #905 on: November 29, 2012, 07:15:41 AM

That's what I thought.

Anyway, I just want my space twitch shooter and I can quit being an elf or a dwarf.
eldaec
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Reply #906 on: November 29, 2012, 07:19:26 AM

Planetside, TR, Hellgate, global agenda, MWO and planetside 2?
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 07:21:17 AM by eldaec »

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Falconeer
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Reply #907 on: November 29, 2012, 07:30:36 AM

Planetside 2 does plenty of things right when it comes to twitching the MMO space. But not everyone is into pure PvPing. Same for Planetside 1.
Tabula Rasa was horrible and not available anymore because of that, like Auto Assault, and Hellgate London belongs in the other forum like Diablo 3.

Global Agenda is the only title that makes sense mentioning when it comes to twitch sci-fi MMO. Too bad it was a worse MMO than Tera on all accounts, but it's a start and definitely something I'd love to see someone improve over. Global Agenda 2 might be really worth checking, if they don't mess it up too much with the money grab of RMT, but it needs lots of help in the PvE department, and possibly less instanced content, in order to even get close to what some of us are wishing for.

Draegan
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Reply #908 on: November 29, 2012, 07:39:44 AM

Planetside, TR, Hellgate, global agenda, MWO and planetside 2?

I'm not a huge FPS kinda guy like I said, but PS is a great game to a lot of people.  I never really played so I can't comment.  TR was interesting for a limited time but it was broken.  Hellgate I never bothered with, but it wasn't really an MMO.  I had a lot of fun with Global Agenda for a short period of time.  Then I got bored. 

I want a persistent world and some PVE in my games.  Of that list only TR had that.  I actually enjoyed that game, but I never got really deep into it to see the fail personally.
eldaec
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Reply #909 on: November 29, 2012, 10:25:49 AM

How was hellgate not an mmo if guild wars is?

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