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Author Topic: The Elder Scrolls Online  (Read 755870 times)
Ingmar
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Reply #665 on: November 13, 2012, 12:49:26 PM

I just don't really see a fundamental difference between the 'go here, kill 1 guy' quests that Skyrim is rife with and 'go here, kill 10 guys'. I don't believe the combat system has anything to do with how quests are constructed, not in that way. And really, if anything, the randomly generated radiant quests are less interesting than crafted quests with a purpose, from an immersion perspective.

I think his argument is that he enjoys Skyrim's gameplay more, and that therefore the quests act just as a pointer towards a place where there is fun gameplay, rather than completing the quest for its own sake (i.e. the contrived reason it is there to begin with, xp/loot) being the gameplay...  I'm not 100% sure I've interpreted it right.

I mean, this is what quests were originally meant to be right?  Pointers towards interesting stuff so that players didn't have to wander around for hours to find interesting bits in the game world, or alternatively sit on the one good farming spot because it was ideal for exp farming.  But modern questing has gone past that either way to being the goal in and of itself.  Completing arbitrary tasks has basically become the name of the game in MMOs.  It isn't about DOING them, it is about COMPLETING, them.  I think Bloodworth is saying in Skyrim it feels more about doing them.

No, his argument is that the reason we have to kill 10 things in an MMO is actually because of the combat system, which is nonsense.

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Mrbloodworth
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Reply #666 on: November 13, 2012, 12:52:49 PM

No, his argument is that the reason we have to kill 10 things in an MMO is actually because of the combat system, which is nonsense.

More like a better combat system would remove the need to kill 10 rats. Because the combat would be the compelling part. I also think you are forgetting the other part of what makes Skyrim combat compelling. To complete a quest have many, MANY avenues of completion, because of the combat. In a Typical MMO, no other way to do something. That troll is not 1 of 5 I have to kill. It is THE POINT of the quest and it may well end very badly.

In one assassination quest I can:
Back stab.
Bow shot.
Magic kill.
Frontal assault.
Persuade.
ETC..

In an MMO Ii can:
Kill the 10 rats.


When I say kill 10 rats. Im using that as a catch all for MMO quests. Who's design is because the combat is not fun, but rather just a system to fill up the progress bar. In Skyrim, I have to go toe to toe with someone or something. That's a big difference.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 01:02:44 PM by Mrbloodworth »

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Paelos
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Reply #667 on: November 13, 2012, 12:58:50 PM

In M&B the quests are to kill bandits. I don't mind this because I'm decapitating bandits while riding around on my badass warsteed with my roaming band of badasses.

What I'm not doing is finding bandits on the map, going into "combat mode" and hitting 1-4-7-3-1-2 until the bandits fall over.

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Mrbloodworth
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Reply #668 on: November 13, 2012, 12:59:17 PM

In M&B the quests are to kill bandits. I don't mind this because I'm decapitating bandit while riding around on my badass warsteed with my roaming band of badasses.

And landing the hits like a boss.

You also cited possibly the worst use of your time in M&B. Like, the worst "quest" in the entire game.

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Ingmar
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Reply #669 on: November 13, 2012, 01:31:28 PM

No, his argument is that the reason we have to kill 10 things in an MMO is actually because of the combat system, which is nonsense.

More like a better combat system would remove the need to kill 10 rats. Because the combat would be the compelling part. I also think you are forgetting the other part of what makes Skyrim combat compelling. To complete a quest have many, MANY avenues of completion, because of the combat. In a Typical MMO, no other way to do something. That troll is not 1 of 5 I have to kill. It is THE POINT of the quest and it may well end very badly.

In one assassination quest I can:
Back stab.
Bow shot.
Magic kill.
Frontal assault.
Persuade.
ETC..

In an MMO Ii can:
Kill the 10 rats.


When I say kill 10 rats. Im using that as a catch all for MMO quests. Who's design is because the combat is not fun, but rather just a system to fill up the progress bar. In Skyrim, I have to go toe to toe with someone or something. That's a big difference.

I think you're using 'combat system' when you mean a bunch of other systems that aren't the combat system. Everything you mention could be designed into a hotbar, tab-target game. Hotbar, targeted combat does not mean that a character can't have a ranged attack and a melee attack, nor does it mean you can't have characters that can learn weapons and magic both, nor does it mean it can't have a dialogue system where you talk your way out of things, nor does it mean there can't be stealth gameplay. It doesn't mean any of the things you're describing, none of that has anything to do with the combat system.

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Zetor
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Reply #670 on: November 13, 2012, 01:37:37 PM

Yea... I'm sorry, but the 'hotbar combat = kill 10 rats' stuff reads like a lot of wharrgarbl to me.  ACK!

BTW, I found GW2 events and stuff to be a lot more dynamic than Skyrim (especially the radiant quests, ugh). I go explore some place on my own, find a wounded scout, escort her back through various dangers, this turns into an attack on some encampment, we lose the fight due to not enough people, the enemies retaliate and we have to defend a settlement, etc. While doing this, I uncover several new areas and possible anchor points for other events. At no point does an exclamation mark or quest text pop up on my screen - some of this I do solo, other times I'm helped by other people who happen to be in the same area. During this, I alternate between heavy damage, support and control as needed, it's definitely not "tab target next mob and do max dps rotation".

Ditto Rift (Ember Isle and up). I wander around, see a zone-wide invasion happening, I head towards the big bad's icon on the minimap. Meanwhile I stumble on a town being zerged so I switch gears into my healing spec and help the defenders stave off the attack. After the invasion, I join an Instant Adventure and get grouped with some people doing an IA chain leading up to a miniboss or a defend-the-wardstone event. I'm pretty sure clicking on "!"s from questgivers in Rift is only necessary if you want to read the story - which isn't much different from meeting some underdressed Norn mage lady in a dungeon and escorting her through the dungeon that you were going to clear anyway. And Rift is the "best WOW that is not WOW".
« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 01:43:16 PM by Zetor »

Sheepherder
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Reply #671 on: November 13, 2012, 03:05:24 PM

More like a better combat system would remove the need to kill 10 rats.

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eldaec
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Reply #672 on: November 13, 2012, 03:13:00 PM

Tasks feel arbitrary in MMOs because they don't appear to impact anything except your xp bar and because you end up repeating them ad infinitum.

It has nothing to do with d&d d20 derived combat. In fact a specific hot bar combat character generally gives you more ways to kill 10 foozles than an elder scrolls game.


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Rokal
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Reply #673 on: November 13, 2012, 03:39:35 PM

You wouldn't necessarily need the "kill 10 rats" quest if the combat was fun enough to be rewarding by itself. You may still end up killing 10 rats (bandits/gorillas/dinosaurs/whatever) but that wouldn't be the explicit *goal*. Think Skyrim: you kill X enemies in a place, but it wasn't why you went there. You're really motivated to be there other things (exploration, loot, curiosity) than a simple kill quest. In most cases you still had a quest to go there, but the experience was fun enough that it didn't feel like checking off a box for a small XP bonus. The game did not need to give you 20 quests for each 'hub' because one simple breadcrumb was enough to get you to a place where you could enjoy the parts of the game that were actually fun. I don't know that I'd agree that combat in Skyrim was really one of the big motivators, but it certainly is in a game like Monster Hunter. Each 20-40 minute gameplay session begins with a very simple quest, "kill/capture X". It doesn't feel anything like the MMO grind. If the experience is fun enough you don't need to give people 20 artificial reasons to continue playing in each zone they visit.

TERA was a pretty great test for this. The combat was (comparative to other MMOs) fantastic but it was weighed down by pages and pages of boring text. I would have been happier with the game if it just said "Go explore the pirate ship at the end of this cave" rather than giving me 10 generic quests for the cave and forcing me to sit through NPC dialogue I could not make myself care about.
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Reply #674 on: November 13, 2012, 03:52:11 PM

If you want to get all pedantic, all computer games are "push butan til ded"   FPS:  Mouselook -> Push shoot button till dead.   TES/ M&B:  Get close, push swing button until dead.  DIKU MMO: Push skill button until dead.

It's funny how only one is being distilled to the minimalist level above while the others are raised upon high.  Maybe because the player is burnt out on the one system, not because the system is more flawed than another.  Maybe after 8,000 hours any combat system gets boring because you just spent 8,000 hours doing the same useless something.  Nah, couldn't be that.


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Reply #675 on: November 13, 2012, 04:40:45 PM

Maybe after 8,000 hours any combat system gets boring because you just spent 8,000 hours doing the same useless something.  Nah, couldn't be that.

I don't think that's it. FPS combat hasn't really changed much in the past decade but the genre is still booming. Ancient games like Counter-strike still top the most-played list on Steam. It is not inevitable that every combat system eventually gets boring, but the bad ones certainly do.
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Reply #676 on: November 13, 2012, 04:53:02 PM

Maybe after 8,000 hours any combat system gets boring because you just spent 8,000 hours doing the same useless something.  Nah, couldn't be that.

I don't think that's it. FPS combat hasn't really changed much in the past decade but the genre is still booming. Ancient games like Counter-strike still top the most-played list on Steam. It is not inevitable that every combat system eventually gets boring, but the bad ones certainly do.

This is really the heart of the matter for me.  I can play RTS and Shooters basically indefinitely, but RPGs which hypothetically give me an entire virtual world, just get old after a while.
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Reply #677 on: November 13, 2012, 06:29:31 PM

Yes, and the exact same people are playing them as obsessively as ever, 6-8 hours at a time?  No.

Yes, they have changed significantly in the last 10 years.  Skills, classes, unlocks, cover, stealth play, vehicles and that's just what I know since I don't do FPS games regularly.  You're saying FPS games haven't advanced or changed significantly since Battlefield 1942 and that's just false.

ed: The really funny part is this isn't even the first time I've seen this argument.  Raph was saying the exact same thing 7 years ago.

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Reply #678 on: November 13, 2012, 07:44:58 PM



Yes, they have changed significantly in the last 10 years.  Skills, classes, unlocks, cover, stealth play, vehicles and that's just what I know since I don't do FPS games regularly.  You're saying FPS games haven't advanced or changed significantly since Battlefield 1942 and that's just false.


Counter Strike..literally the original half life mod Counter Strike is still in the top 5 or 10 daily most played games on steam.  Every day.  In 2012. and 2011. And, well you get the point.  Shit, most days ALL THREE counter strike games are in the top 10.
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Reply #679 on: November 13, 2012, 08:59:59 PM

And Call of Duty/Battlefield/(insert modern FPS title) are VERY different than CS; also, way more people are playing CoD on consoles than people playing CS on PC.

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Reply #680 on: November 13, 2012, 10:24:55 PM

And Call of Duty/Battlefield/(insert modern FPS title) are VERY different than CS.

I just don't agree with this. The basic gameplay is the same. There are nuanced differences, but you could say the same about hotbar combat MMOs.
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Reply #681 on: November 14, 2012, 12:32:55 AM

Because the entire encounter is more engaging for me, and that's just the fight. 

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Reply #682 on: November 14, 2012, 12:36:15 AM

It's not necessarily about the fact you can like tab-target combat. The point is that it's been done to fucking death, and it's failed in every single attempt to capture a major audience after WoW.



Guild wars 2 has tab targetting. Hardly a failure. Why don't you guys drop the hyperbole?
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Reply #683 on: November 14, 2012, 05:58:21 AM

GW2 dragon battles were terribly boring, though for the most part GW2 battles were more interesting than most tab targeting.

The difference between tab targetting and FPS style attacking is how involved you are in the combat.  Tab targeting with RNG usually becomes more strategic, you're more concerned with what ability you need to use on which enemy at which time and executing your abilities.  FPS style attacking is more about trying to get your attacks in while dodging incoming attacks, but you are usually using less abilities. 

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Reply #684 on: November 14, 2012, 06:01:58 AM

What are we objecting to here? The use of the tab key or the concept of aim being a character rather than player skill? I ask, because both objections seem fucking ridiculous.

Or do we hate xcom now and have fond memories of aiming in tabletop DnD by throwing physical projectiles at NPC minatures.

If it is claiming to be a character RPG seems daft to be complaining about character skill rolls. If you prefer Diablo combat there are plenty of games that do that. Diablo for a start.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 06:08:14 AM by eldaec »

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Reply #685 on: November 14, 2012, 06:39:16 AM

They're complaining that they're tired of character-based-skill and want a player-skill-based game but don't realize it.  So instead it's focused on "Tab Targeting!" and "Hotbar combat!" instead.

Counter Strike..literally the original half life mod Counter Strike is still in the top 5 or 10 daily most played games on steam.  Every day.  In 2012. and 2011. And, well you get the point.  Shit, most days ALL THREE counter strike games are in the top 10.

If you want to go by player numbers per day you're really going to lose whatever it is you're pushing.  I'd recommend dropping that line of thinking.

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Reply #686 on: November 14, 2012, 06:47:37 AM

I think Bloodworth is talking about is that when you have to aim and position yourself the very act of combat (no matter what your objective is) is enjoyable.  Where as tab target and hotbar combat is usually less engaging.

I agree with him, but not because one combat system is better than the other, what is really beneath the surface is Mob AI!

In a tab target/hotbar combat system, NPC mobs (unless you're in a raid/dungeon boss setting) are retarded.  They stand there and do their attacks and you stand there and do yours and most of the time you win.  The only time combat is engaging is when you "kite" stuff, which is really not a designed mechanic most of the time.  If you juice up the AI a bit, and make the skills/spells you have more reactive or behavior modified based you'll have a more engaging combat system (GW2 did this and it's why their combat system is superior to WOW/WOWclones; it's actually a hybrid of the two).

In a game like TERA or Skyrim or and FPS, where combat is based off of aiming and positions and dodging, you have NPCs that actually "act".  They hide, they run, then dodge, you dodge etc.  You are actually engaged and using your brain when you are fighting and gain more joy out of the singular experience.

Now to go even further, the target/hotbar system is so fucking dull, designers have to give you other things to do.  Instead of making engaging encounters the norm, they give you list of mundane things to do.  Combat is a means to the end; a way to get that +1.  In the "action-y" type of systems, the combat itself is the enjoyment and you can then design your game, not of kill 100 things, but of killing 2 or 3.

The reason why TERA failed is that they created a great combat system, but kept all the mundane bullshit of the tab target/hobar system in place.
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Reply #687 on: November 14, 2012, 06:55:32 AM

It's not necessarily about the fact you can like tab-target combat. The point is that it's been done to fucking death, and it's failed in every single attempt to capture a major audience after WoW.
Guild wars 2 has tab targetting. Hardly a failure. Why don't you guys drop the hyperbole?

I didn't say it was a failure. It's not hyperbole at all to say that a tab-target game hasn't captured the 10M user audience of WoW.

Financially, however, GW2 is a different beast. It's based entirely on box sales, which makes it roughly in the same market as any other game release. It's also published by a Korean company that handles a slightly different market contingent for its games. GW2 made about $42M in sales for NC Soft per their recent financial release in Nov 7th. Only 16% of their overall income for that quarter was from the US.

All that being said, revenues were still down for the company, and income was down compared to the prior year even with the GW2 release. The stock has taken a hit as a result. Was it a failure? No. Was it the success that NC Soft wanted? No.

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Mrbloodworth
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Reply #688 on: November 14, 2012, 07:33:37 AM

I think people are forgetting. All things in games go back to the player class. Combat is not just a set of abilities. Its the AI, Environment, the animations, everything hinges on the player. Trying to compare the static, littered with mobs waiting to die environment of a MMO, where the environment itself barely has anything to do with anything. To Skyrim where the environment and AI has a huge effect in what makes up the combat system is silly.

The combination of the Environment, story and actions you can preform make it superior. The lack of thees things leads to ever increasing numbers of requirements because that's all there is, its not about the encounter ( with possible exception of raids ) its about completion, no matter how rote it is.

In the above linked video, environment means jack and shit. The player presses on button and walks past an entire room of waiting to die Mobs. Trying to compare than with the player choice of using sneaking and stealth, and the hugely more difficult act of preforming to accomplish the goal in a system of combat and environment requires more self awareness, situational awareness and environmental awareness is a huge stretch.

The latter is simply a more compelling combat and system, removing the need to pile on more and more mundane, and frankly pointless quest requirements. I have never killed a troll in Skyrim to find out he lacks limbs to harvest.

Now to go even further, the target/hotbar system is so fucking dull, designers have to give you other things to do.  Instead of making engaging encounters the norm, they give you list of mundane things to do.  Combat is a means to the end; a way to get that +1.  In the "action-y" type of systems, the combat itself is the enjoyment and you can then design your game, not of kill 100 things, but of killing 2 or 3.

Exactly.

character-based-skill and want a player-skill-based game but don't realize it.

I fully fucking realize it, thanks! I am speaking of the surrounding requirements, and features that go with it.  Combat is not isolated to what you have on your hot bar, nor is it isolated to left clicking.

The difference between tab targetting and FPS style attacking is how involved you are in the combat.  Tab targeting with RNG usually becomes more strategic, you're more concerned with what ability you need to use on which enemy at which time and executing your abilities.  FPS style attacking is more about trying to get your attacks in while dodging incoming attacks, but you are usually using less abilities. 

Yes. And one requires an entirely different set of features around it. When the player is active and reactive dodging attacks and landing hits, or dealing with the environment. It does not necessitate you harvest 40 entrails from beasts that may or may not have entrails, but still poop.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 07:43:51 AM by Mrbloodworth »

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Merusk
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Reply #689 on: November 14, 2012, 09:00:58 AM

Now you're just bitching that games are below your skill level.  Good luck finding an MMO that caters exclusively to high-skill crowd.

Both your and Draegan's entire last posts can be summed up as, "Combat is too easy because they have to account for terrible players."    If they don't, they can't pay their bills.  A symptom of the player base, not the genre.

Could they develop a high-skill game using RPG mechanics that meets your complaints? Sure, but it'd better be F2P or have a really low overhead and development cost because the subs and cash shop won't be raking it in.  Lower the overhead too much, though, and hello hacks out the ass!

You're not going to get "Meaningful and dynamic environment" of the sort you're talking about in a MMO.  Not one with NPCs at least. Who are the NPCs going to react to when there's a 'stealth threat' or they find  a body?  You alone?  Well now I just have to wait until some shlub puts everyone on alert and run in to get my objective.   Just like good ol' Karnor in EQ.   Send 2-3 your way and the rest wait 'on guard' in case there's another shlub? Oh no, that's what you were complaining about.

You're just ranting to rant and bitching to bitch with no solutions offered and no alternatives, which is why I just realized I had a discussion with myself in the last 2 paragraphs. 

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Reply #690 on: November 14, 2012, 09:42:30 AM

Now you're just bitching that games are below your skill level.

No. I'm not. You just seem to want to take this as some kind of fight. There are pros and cons to each system. Some people like one, and some the other. Thats not really what i have been talking about at all. I have been talking about the designs of each that surrounds them.

But yes, at the end of the day and conversation I am personally tired of MMORPG combat, and think the precedence that all MMO's need to use it, by reason of player expectation or tech limitations, is wrong. Thankfully the trend is changing.

Its just a shame, one title that by nature of its predecessors should demand it, will not be apart of it from what I have seen.

You're not going to get "Meaningful and dynamic environment" of the sort you're talking about in a MMO.

Look around, its already changing in small steps. MMORPG combat was created to emulate in an asynchronous environment to simulate DnD like combat and was heavy restricted by technology. It now trudges on because of this history, not because the tech does not exist to do anything more.

I welcome the day where DnD like combat is more action oriented and hidden to the player, I do not really Consider Today's MMORPG system related to DnD anymore, its its own beast of contradictions to add "depth". More so than 90 skills and abilities can be hidden. The Elder scrolls do a decent job already. You do not need 90 skills that are situational flavors of the same thing. And dumb AI needs to die, MMOrpg AI seems to be the way it is, not because of any limitation, but because of an expectation.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 09:57:12 AM by Mrbloodworth »

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Reply #691 on: November 14, 2012, 10:44:22 AM

The fight is with the folks who keep bitching without providing answers.  You admit to being tired of MMO combat. Great, you're a minority as others were saying it was always terrible and FPS is King, yo!  I misunderstood your stance and lumped you in with them.  I agree with you, all have pros and cons it's a question of what you're designing for.  Right now tab-target character-skill nets a wider market share than click-to-kill or FPS player-skill.

So what's your alternative?

You're not going to get "Meaningful and dynamic environment" of the sort you're talking about in a MMO.

Look around, its already changing in small steps. MMORPG combat was created to emulate in an asynchronous environment to simulate DnD like combat and was heavy restricted by technology. It now trudges on because of this history, not because the tech does not exist to do anything more.

/quote]

As it changes it's also becoming more single player or small-party multiplayer and less MMO.  I'd rather not have an always-on SP or Max 8-player game with DLC back end!  Thankfully Blizzard shot the notion of this being a widespread model in the foot for at least another 4 years.  Not that there isn't a market for it but it's not the MMO market.

The tech may exist but good luck with the connections.  The LOLZ MOVE OUT OF THE STICKS trolls that happend in the D3 threads prior to release were precious.  Latency is still an issue and will remain one in the online game space for the foreseeable future. Even those places that aren't "In the sticks" must deal with the oversold networks of greedy I-Providers.

Lunch is over that's all I've got for now

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Reply #692 on: November 14, 2012, 10:57:25 AM

You may wish to use that term minority carefully. There will always be standard MMORPG combat holdouts. But the trend, is moving away with every new game that's not just an emulation of the wow model. IMO, where TERA went wrong, was innovating the combat ( Innovation in MMO terms, catching up in terms of game in general ), but gave the expected questing system of old.

Alternatives are already here. We have Hybrids, FPS, "Actiony", what ever you want to call your flavor. Look around. Its now time for user perception to change. Change is coming, and its about god dam time.

EDIT: As for the last part of your post, that I did not realize was a response. Dude. Its happening, no matter how much you trot out the old limited tech excuse. Its wrong now, it was only slightly wrong before. Personal BFE connection is not an excuse. We are past the 56k era.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 11:01:11 AM by Mrbloodworth »

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eldaec
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Reply #693 on: November 14, 2012, 11:14:04 AM

Arguing that replacing character skill rolls with player skill is inherently a shift forward as opposed to a genre choice is precisely as stupid as arguing that turn based is never as good as real time, or that 3D movies are a better way to watch than 2D.

It's 1998 again.

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Reply #694 on: November 14, 2012, 11:22:19 AM

I am baffled that any of you find the mob AI in GW2 and Skyrim "better" than WoW or SWTOR. It isn't different in any noticeable way, except when it is worse (Skyrim dragon flies in circles for 10 minutes, occasionally stopping to fry a deer, ignoring player putting arrows into it.)

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Reply #695 on: November 14, 2012, 11:22:28 AM

Right now tab-target character-skill nets a wider market share than click-to-kill or FPS player-skill.

Uh, Call of Duty Elite numbers a userbase over 12M people. The answer is simple. Put action combat into MMOs. It's already in some of the most popular multiplayer games of all time.

I mean I look at something simple like the combat from Jedi Knight 2 from over a decade ago, and wonder how hard that model is to put into an MMO?

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Reply #696 on: November 14, 2012, 11:24:18 AM

You may wish to use that term minority carefully. There will always be standard MMORPG combat holdouts. But the trend, is moving away with every new game that's not just an emulation of the wow model. IMO, where TERA went wrong, was innovating the combat ( Innovation in MMO terms, catching up in terms of game in general ), but gave the expected questing system of old.

Alternatives are already here. We have Hybrids, FPS, "Actiony", what ever you want to call your flavor. Look around. Its now time for user perception to change. Change is coming, and its about god dam time.

EDIT: As for the last part of your post, that I did not realize was a response. Dude. Its happening, no matter how much you trot out the old limited tech excuse. Its wrong now, it was only slightly wrong before. Personal BFE connection is not an excuse. We are past the 56k era.

Where TERA went wrong was in making a game for pedophiles.

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Reply #697 on: November 14, 2012, 11:26:18 AM

Where TERA went wrong was in making a game for pedophiles.

No Contest. /thread

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HaemishM
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Reply #698 on: November 14, 2012, 11:28:11 AM

Haemish, I never have said anything quite like you quoted up above.  wink Granted I have high hopes for this game, but I've listed my reasons pretty clearly. 

And the reasons that it will be great that YOU have posted are all the reasons you should be wary of this product as someone whose stated experience covers many of the larger MMO's of the last decade.

Quote
I was also a huge fan of DAOC.

As was I. Frankly, I could STILL be playing DAOC and still have the urge to occasionally but one thing stops me. The shitastic leveling curve with UTTERLY BORING PVE. I cannot fucking stand leveling in DAoC. The most fun I ever had in that game wasn't at release (although that was a lot of fun as I led a guild) - it was when I came back a few years afterwards and they'd added the battlegrounds. The level 20 RVR battleground was fantastic because they'd just introduced the "make a character level at level 20 and here's one free level of EXP a week" thing. The battleground was active and the RVR was great. Then I leveled out of that narrow band and found the other battlegrounds barren and had to try to level to 50 to be any use in the open RVR zones. I made it to level 32 before just fucking giving up.


Quote
When I heard many of the orginal DAOC devs were making this game in a Elder Scrolls world, of course I got excited.  I'm still optimistic.  We'll see how it turns out.

This is actually one of the HUGE reasons I'm so down on the game. Being executive producer on a game whose level grind was SO GRINDY that I gave up long before max level means you probably don't have a good grip on what I like in PVE anyway. Also DAoC's PVE was mind-numbingly boring. It took all the camp/pull mentality of EQ and made it slower and more grindy. And what I saw in that video you linked was combat that looked equally as boring as DAoC's combat. So again, all the reasons you've posted for the game being great are all the reasons I think the game will be deriviative, cliched boring shit.

I HOPE I'm wrong. That's actually the exact kind of disappointment I'm looking for.

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Reply #699 on: November 14, 2012, 11:29:26 AM

Where TERA went wrong was in making a game for pedophiles.

No Contest. /thread
I mean that sort of seriously, honestly. It may have been super fun to play but I'll never know, because I won't play a game that looks like that. And I play nearly every MMO at least on a trial basis. I guarantee they lost a lot of other opportunities like me.

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