Dr. Who

[HaemishM]

I liked a lot of the Eccleston season, and most of the Rose, Martha and Donna episodes of Tennant's run. The end of the Tennant run, specifically Waters of Mars and the End of Time is where it all went pear-shaped for me.

[Ironwood]

Waters of Mars was a really, really, really good episode up until the last ten minutes 'I Am God' shite.

[HaemishM]

I don't know, Waters always felt overlong to me, like most of the story was him whinging about how he can't change things while not much really happened at all.

[Ironwood]

Fair enough.

[Slyfeind]

I thought it was a solid, balanced episode. Hated River smugsmirking, but as soon as she refered to Silence in the Library, I liked her again. I love it when the Doctor's companions (Amy and Rory in this case) act like time travellers. Hated them referring to America as the most powerful country in the world. I haaaaate it when Brits look up to the USA anyway. It makes me feel like this is a nation of dirty lying whores. (Oh wait, lololololol.)

[Ironwood]

The understanding that the Beeb is selling this to an American market heavily should explain much to you.

[Sky]

I liked it. The way the new guy was written was nice. Nice little twist with the forgetting the aliens bit, got a chuckle out of me each time though by the time they got to Rory it was maybe one trip to the well too many.

Are full HD episodes available online anywhere (legal)? One of the shows I'm going to miss when cable goes dark this weekend.

[Khaldun]

I liked a lot of the Eccleston season, and most of the Rose, Martha and Donna episodes of Tennant's run. The end of the Tennant run, specifically Waters of Mars and the End of Time is where it all went pear-shaped for me.

See, I think the worst of this last season and the worst of those runs match up pretty well in terms of badness: say, Fear Her and last season's technicolor Daleks episode. I don't think that the Moffat-run stuff has yet generated something as bad as the Slitheen two-parter in Eccleston's season. I think the two-part conclusion of last season has a lot of the good and bad sides of Davies' season enders. But equally I can't see why really quite good episodes from last season like "The Lodger" or "Vincent and the Doctor" don't compare favorably to the best of Eccleston and Tennant's runs. And there were also quite decent if not spectacular episodes last season like "The Vampires of Venice".

[palmer_eldritch]

We are on season six now, so I am assuming discussion of seasons two and three is no longer considered a spoiler.

Previous seasons had their faults but they generally had a good mixture of standout episodes and a strong overall arc.

For example, Rose and the Doctor's doomed love story in season two was a strong tale.

The return of the Master in season three was nicely foreshadowed before he appeared, and the Master himself, as played by John Simm, was a great character.

The last season was apparently meant to have an arc as well, but it didn't make sense. I thought the story of Amy and Rory's relationship worked well, but the main plotline - cracks in the wall, River Song, Tardis exploding - was just a jumble. Maybe that's partly because the story was designed to last more than one season.

As for the quality of individual episodes, I think everyone pretty much agrees that previous seasons had some standout episodes and some that were just bad, and last year's followed that pattern. People certainly bitched at the lousy episodes in previous seasons, and they raved about Vincent and the Doctor last year.

As for the first episode of season six, I agree with Ironwood that it makes sense to wait for part two, but I thought the monster oh my god it's opening its mouth like in that painting by munch was nice and sinister.

[Surlyboi]

The Silence (I'll call them Munchmen) is/are potentially scary as shit. That said, the wait-and-see attitude everyone is taking is warranted. The problem with last season was simply that they got overzealous in their arc planning and ran out of money. The Gaiman episode was supposed to be last season, but they went with the Lodger instead because they'd blown their budget.

[HaemishM]

But equally I can't see why really quite good episodes from last season like "The Lodger" or "Vincent and the Doctor" don't compare favorably to the best of Eccleston and Tennant's runs. And there were also quite decent if not spectacular episodes last season like "The Vampires of Venice".

I thought the Vampires of Venice episode sucked monkey ass, especially the killing a flying fish vampire thing by drying it out with a fucking mirror. God, that was shit. The reason you don't see The Lodger or Vincent and the Doctor compared with the best of Tennant's run is because NEITHER STORY WAS ABOUT THE DOCTOR. He was almost superfluous to the fucking story. You could have inserted any mysterious stranger who knows things in those stories and they would have worked. Moffat's idea that the Doctor is one long fairy tale is misguided - he appears to dismiss science fiction because the science parts are too hard or something. That's why you see such shit as that over elaborate season finale from last year. Even the fucking resolution was a copout - Amy can remember me back into existence! HURRAY! LET'S HAVE FISH FINGERS AND CUSTARD.

Doctor Who is not a fairy tale.

[Ironwood]

It is until they get rid of that useless hack.

Get used to it.

[Khaldun]

But equally I can't see why really quite good episodes from last season like "The Lodger" or "Vincent and the Doctor" don't compare favorably to the best of Eccleston and Tennant's runs. And there were also quite decent if not spectacular episodes last season like "The Vampires of Venice".

I thought the Vampires of Venice episode sucked monkey ass, especially the killing a flying fish vampire thing by drying it out with a fucking mirror. God, that was shit. The reason you don't see The Lodger or Vincent and the Doctor compared with the best of Tennant's run is because NEITHER STORY WAS ABOUT THE DOCTOR. He was almost superfluous to the fucking story. You could have inserted any mysterious stranger who knows things in those stories and they would have worked. Moffat's idea that the Doctor is one long fairy tale is misguided - he appears to dismiss science fiction because the science parts are too hard or something. That's why you see such shit as that over elaborate season finale from last year. Even the fucking resolution was a copout - Amy can remember me back into existence! HURRAY! LET'S HAVE FISH FINGERS AND CUSTARD.

Doctor Who is not a fairy tale.

Doctor Who is not hard SF either. It NEVER has been. Not once. Not a single episode, even leaving aside that the protagonist is an immortal Time Lord flying around space and time in a machine that is science fantasy at its essence. Thankfully, it's never quite gone as technobabbly as STNG at its worst, but seriously: "the science parts are too hard" as a problem that Moffat has and other Doctor Who show-runners and writers have not? I don't know what you've been watching, mate, but it's not Doctor Who. And being wished back into existence is different than being wished back from being a shriveled elf-thing in a cage by all of humanity shouting your name at the same time, or sucking Daleks and Cybermen into a magic void with a magic machine or having your companion possessed by a literal deus ex machina from the magic time machine and destroying all the Daleks? I'm not seeing the distinction here on the level of non-copout-ery, just on the level of execution of the cop-outs.

[HaemishM]

Execution matters a fuckload.

[Ironwood]

And being wished back into existence is different than being wished back from being a shriveled elf-thing in a cage by all of humanity shouting your name at the same time, or sucking Daleks and Cybermen into a magic void with a magic machine or having your companion possessed by a literal deus ex machina from the magic time machine and destroying all the Daleks? I'm not seeing the distinction here on the level of non-copout-ery, just on the level of execution of the cop-outs.

Are you under the impression that no-one complained about that exact shit when it was done by RTD ?

Because I seem to remember that happening.  His Davros Series-ender was just as bad as the Magic Doctor in a Box, while we're pointing out the self-serving shite.

[Khaldun]

I remember the complaints. But then they heighten my question: what's the gold standard? What are you guys remembering that is non-Davies, non-Moffat that gets your tits a-quivering with its pure unalloyed goodness?

My tits have a lower quiver-standard, I guess.

[Evildrider]

When has Doctor Who ever been so awesome?  It's always been seasons of good and bad.

[Tebonas]

The understanding that the Beeb is selling this to an American market heavily should explain much to you.

It indeed does. Now the slurping noises that could be heard throughout the episode are a riddle to me no longer.

[HaemishM]

I remember the complaints. But then they heighten my question: what's the gold standard? What are you guys remembering that is non-Davies, non-Moffat that gets your tits a-quivering with its pure unalloyed goodness?

My tits have a lower quiver-standard, I guess.

Much of the Tom Baker run, provided you overlook the effects (which were after all part of the fun), and really a lot of what went before Colin Baker.

[Khaldun]

I love me some Tom Baker too, but apply the same standards to his episodes and a lot of them aren't going to hold up very well either, ignoring the different pacing of the story structure then. There was no arc at all in his early episodes; the Key to Time was hugely uneven, had a WTF conclusion and the Black Guardian was a totally clownshoes villain.

[Ratman_tf]

I remember the complaints. But then they heighten my question: what's the gold standard? What are you guys remembering that is non-Davies, non-Moffat that gets your tits a-quivering with its pure unalloyed goodness?

My tits have a lower quiver-standard, I guess.

Before that? It was all carboard box robots and monster suits made out of old carpets, filmed in black and white, with really shit audio, shown on late night PBS.

[/american view of Dr. Who] 

[Numtini]

We both liked the new episode and neither of us was particularly a fan of last season. I would strongly agree that the episodes weren't bad, but the arc was muddled. I didn't know it was supposed to last longer, but that makes perfect sense.

And are you sure it was the episodes that were in B/W and not your tv? I thought Baker was the first doctor broadcast in the US.

[Ratman_tf]

We both liked the new episode and neither of us was particularly a fan of last season. I would strongly agree that the episodes weren't bad, but the arc was muddled. I didn't know it was supposed to last longer, but that makes perfect sense.

And are you sure it was the episodes that were in B/W and not your tv? I thought Baker was the first doctor broadcast in the US.

For a long time, I never quite knew what exactly Dr. Who was. A brit show about a time traveling dude. Occasionally I'd see an episode on PBS, and it would be in black and white, and have atrocious audio, so I couldn't follow the story well.

Now that the show has revived, I've actually sought out some of the older stuff, out of curiosity.

[Khaldun]

The last season of Pertwee was broadcast on some US PBS stations.

[Numtini]

Pertwee's in color. Vivid color. Very Austin Powers. (No, I'm not that big of a geek, out of nostalgia we rented Time Warrior the first appearance of Sarah Jane and were watching it last night.)

[adjunct]

I don't have words.

[Ironwood]

Oh For Fucks Sake.

Edit :

Plot holes as big as a bus (AGAIN) and the story makes no sense whatsoever once you think about it.  However, a much better second episode than first and as long as you can get over the fact that the story is utterly impossible, it's actually rather ok.  However :  The last Two Minutes FUCKS IT ALL.

SERIOUSLY, LEAVE IT ALONE YOU BASTARDS.

[Simond]

So you don't like series-long story arcs, then?

[Ironwood]

I don't mind them if they're any good.

But we've had a few now that have been utterly predictable wank purely for fan shock value and, hey, Look At That !!

[NowhereMan]

Honestly I felt the episode worked more or less. Yes there were ridiculous plot holes but I liked the means of resolution purely because it wasn't utterly ridiculous.

One question:
One main complaint:

[Ironwood]

[NowhereMan]

Well fuck,

[Surlyboi]

I liked it. I'm hearing that it'll all sort out at the end. If it doesn't, I'm going back to Wales and beating the living shit out of Moffat.

[adjunct]

I liked it. I'm hearing that it'll all sort out at the end. If it doesn't, I'm going back to Wales and beating the living shit out of Moffat.

He isn't alone in it. He has plenty of enablers.

[HaemishM]

I think they need to rename this show The New Adventures of Amy Pond.