Mark Jacobs Interview Regarding AoC and Hellgate (Why They Tanked)

[Miasma]

That's one of the dumbest ideas I've ever heard.

[slog]

I wish devs would STOP talking on message boards, and games STOP posting release notes, both take all the mystery out of these games.  I thought the whole point of RPGs is to 'figure things out', yet message board postings and release notes explain it all.  The only comment a dev should make is 'not a bug' or 'its a bug' and stop there if a big issue comes up.

Devs can't stop players talking between themselves out of game, but they don't have to join in, but they can 'listen'.

RPGs should not be 'chess' where the rules are fixed and known - its part of the game not to know the rules - but to figure them out, and realize they could, and will, change.

It's not an RPG.

[tmp]

I thought the whole point of RPGs is to 'figure things out', yet message board postings and release notes explain it all.

I thought it's to play a role in environment simulated with defined mechanics. That's why these games used to come with manuals explaining how to go about it and how the mechanics work... since the pen and paper days.

[Sunbury]

I'm don't mean basic mechanics (Press A to Attack, ooh after this patch its now Press B!), but things like new dungeons / mobs being added, or drop rates changes or DPS adjustments.   Those things should be noticed or discovered during play, not reading release notes.

[UnSub]

I'm don't mean basic mechanics (Press A to Attack, ooh after this patch its now Press B!), but things like new dungeons / mobs being added, or drop rates changes or DPS adjustments.   Those things should be noticed or discovered during play, not reading release notes.

Stealth nerfs are wonderful, magic things. They make forums (official and unofficial) melt.

[Glazius]

RPGs should not be 'chess' where the rules are fixed and known - its part of the game not to know the rules - but to figure them out, and realize they could, and will, change.

Uh, no.

It's part of the game to know the rules, because the rules are part of the game.

A game is a series of meaningful decisions. If you don't know the rules, then you don't know what your decisions mean. I mean, would you rather wear armor with 500 AC or 450 AC and 0.02% slashing invulnerability? If you don't know what slashing invulnerability is or does then that decision doesn't mean anything. And so it goes.

[Nebu]

What Glazius said. 

Why do you think so many people are making UI mods for WoW?  They want more information.  More information = better understanding of game mechanics.  Better understanding = better decision making.  Better decision making = more meaningful gameplay. 

[schild]

More information = better understanding of game mechanics.  Better understanding = better decision making.  Better decision making = more meaningful gameplay.

That goes both ways.

The more information I get about a game, the less I want to play it. Why do you think I spend so little time in betas or looking up MMORPG information before a release. I don't want to see the endgame armor and weapons. I don't want to see how much damage I *could* be doing if I "Did it Right." These things aren't fun. They make games a second job and suck all the mystery out of gameplay. Knowing everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen is not what games are about. To some people they might be, but all those motherfuckers play munchkins in tabletop games also.

Feel free to tell me I'm doing it wrong, but when it comes to games, ignorance is bliss.

[Wershlak]

More information = better understanding of game mechanics.  Better understanding = better decision making.  Better decision making = more meaningful gameplay.

That goes both ways.

The more information I get about a game, the less I want to play it. Why do you think I spend so little time in betas or looking up MMORPG information before a release. I don't want to see the endgame armor and weapons. I don't want to see how much damage I *could* be doing if I "Did it Right." These things aren't fun. They make games a second job and suck all the mystery out of gameplay. Knowing everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen is not what games are about. To some people they might be, but all those motherfuckers play munchkins in tabletop games also.

Feel free to tell me I'm doing it wrong, but when it comes to games, ignorance is bliss.

Spending 5 minutes reading Elitist Jerks is enough to suck any thought I might have about resubbing to WoW. Revealing all the details of how the game works certainly allows for better gameplay decisions but it sure doesn't make the game more fun.

[Nebu]

I agree with you both.  I like ambiguity in my gameplay.  I use experimentation to figure stuff out rather than install a UI-mod to do it all for me.  I guess this is why I was so fond of ATitD.  It allowed me to solve the game mechanics puzzles as I worked through other aspects of the game.  UI mods really do dumb-down games and take away a lot of the fun for me... with the exception of the few mods that streamline the existing UI.  Anything that focuses me more on the game and less on the numbers embedded within the game is a good thing.

[cevik]

Spending 5 minutes reading Elitist Jerks is enough to suck any thought I might have about resubbing to WoW. Revealing all the details of how the game works certainly allows for better gameplay decisions but it sure doesn't make the game more fun.

Interesting, I spend more time reading Elitist Jerks than I do trolling you guys here (which is saying a lot!).  I have Leulier's dps spreadsheet saved to my dropbox so I can edit it from any computer I access.  I have every gear drop/badge reward that is an upgrade memorized so that I know at any given time how much any upgrade is worth and what the perfect buy order is in %dps increase/# badges.

But then again, that's how I have fun playing games! :)

[Ironwood]

Seek Help.

[Khaldun]

I love the idea of ambiguity in my gameplay, but for that to be truly satisfying, the game mechanics need to have ambiguity built in, to construct a world or a platform that has deliberate mystery, to allow for improvisation and discovery.

Any game with a deep, complex physics engine, for example, can reward ambiguous gameplay because the player can improvise or act spontaneously within the game and see novel results, like discovering that you can launch yourself with rockets, etc. Ideally you want developers who do not *plan* for this kind of discovery (e.g., design so that it is mandatory) but neither do they forbid it. (e.g., designing a topography where there is nowhere for a rocket jumper to go).

Most developers don't want to allow that space for improvisation because it can to things that bork the game: players getting stuck in terrain, players undermining a set progression scheme, and so on. But my preference is definitely for games where there are possibilities for unexpected interactions between game subsystems and where there is no need or obligation to uncover all those interactions in order to compete or achieve progression.

However. That is really not most MMOGs, which is too bad, World of Warcraft least of all. The more rollercoasterish something is, the less mystery it necessarily possesses. Under those circumstances, not only do I expect devs to be explicit about the game mechanics, I don't blame players for being interested in the same.

Someone who insists on making an unambiguous design into something ambiguous is just going to end up frustrated. It's like playing the latest Sam & Max adventure game and getting angry because the solution to puzzles isn't intuitive or doesn't arise from the intrinsic properties of objects in the environment. It just isn't that kind of game.

Also, to some extent, most of us have had a nightmare experience or two with a game of progression that we tried to treat as an improvisational, spontaneous experience, and in so doing, seriously fucked up an early quest or didn't pick up an important item or something of that kind. Which was not and is not our fault: it's the fault of designers, and most designers have learned not to build games that way. But even a couple of experiences like that is enough to send you furtively to a walk-through every time you're a bit puzzled about something, because you really do not want to spend hours only to find out that you needed to pick up Grandma's Old Diaphragm back in the first part of the game, etc.

[cevik]

Seek Help.

I don't need any help, with the tools currently available I already win the DPS mini-game in nearly every raid.  More help would make me unstoppable.

[naum]

More information = better understanding of game mechanics.  Better understanding = better decision making.  Better decision making = more meaningful gameplay.

That goes both ways.

The more information I get about a game, the less I want to play it. Why do you think I spend so little time in betas or looking up MMORPG information before a release. I don't want to see the endgame armor and weapons. I don't want to see how much damage I *could* be doing if I "Did it Right." These things aren't fun. They make games a second job and suck all the mystery out of gameplay. Knowing everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen is not what games are about. To some people they might be, but all those motherfuckers play munchkins in tabletop games also.

Feel free to tell me I'm doing it wrong, but when it comes to games, ignorance is bliss.

I hate that MMORPG has become all about THIS, spreadsheet analysis to tweak for optimal play efficiency. It's a circular theme that has infested the gameplay mechanics now that this is factored in… …not that understanding about the mechanics is totally wrong, it's just that when you have to plot and plan to play a game, something's a tad askew…

[Sunbury]

Learning the game is a big part of the enjoyment, as Raph has written about many times, and it seems to me that element is shrinking as time goes on.

I recall the first time I played a moderated Squad Leader game at a tournament (many moons ago), where we didn't know the opponents forces nor victory conditions.  At first I was WTF is this?!?!  But the fun level was 10x instead of doing Game Algebra to compute exactly what to do, one had to scout and try to guess, if you were supposed to attack or run away!  

Of course the basic rules were known, but the 'next level' of wasn't.

Like early days Asheron's Call, you could look at those Steel Leggings and read "Lightning Protection Low" on them, but what did that mean? The first time you ran into Silver Rats you learned the hard way!  

With both situations you had a clue to be careful or to try different tactics, or the first time fighting a new mob try to get it 1 v 1 in a safe spot, etc, it wasn't 'flip a coin - tails you die'.

[Ratman_tf]

Hook shot.

A lot of the items and weapons in the Zelda games have at least two uses. Lighting stuff on fire, hitting enemies, retreiving stuff from across the map.

That's why I was so jazzed to find the buzzsaw gun in Hellgate London. It was fun to bounce buzzsaw blades around corners, even if it wasn't quite as effective as shooting an enemy square in the chest.

Most of the instances and especially the end game raids in WoW nowadays are about doing thing besides "Tank & Spank". touching blocks, kiting enemies onto explosive eggs, etc...

[cevik]

I hate that MMORPG has become all about THIS, spreadsheet analysis to tweak for optimal play efficiency. It's a circular theme that has infested the gameplay mechanics now that this is factored in… …not that understanding about the mechanics is totally wrong, it's just that when you have to plot and plan to play a game, something's a tad askew…

Unless you enjoy plotting and planning.

And it's not like you HAVE to plot and plan to play the games, hell a mentally retarded monkey rolling his face across a keyboard can still get pretty decent dps in WoW.  You can choose to over analyze it, if that's your thing, but you don't have to.

[Sunbury]

Unless you enjoy plotting and planning.

And it's not like you HAVE to plot and plan to play the games, hell a mentally retarded monkey rolling his face across a keyboard can still get pretty decent dps in WoW.  You can choose to over analyze it, if that's your thing, but you don't have to.

I think plotting and planning is cool and wish there was more of it - with one caveat, that the information used is based on knowledge gained in game, not by reading the web.   However, that bird has long flown with 3rd party sites, but at least the Dev's don't have to contribute to the spoilers!

[Glazius]

More information = better understanding of game mechanics.  Better understanding = better decision making.  Better decision making = more meaningful gameplay.

That goes both ways.

The more information I get about a game, the less I want to play it. Why do you think I spend so little time in betas or looking up MMORPG information before a release. I don't want to see the endgame armor and weapons. I don't want to see how much damage I *could* be doing if I "Did it Right." These things aren't fun. They make games a second job and suck all the mystery out of gameplay. Knowing everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen is not what games are about. To some people they might be, but all those motherfuckers play munchkins in tabletop games also.

Feel free to tell me I'm doing it wrong, but when it comes to games, ignorance is bliss.

This kind of thing actually isn't what I'm talking about. You don't need to know how awesome the endgame gear is to play the game.

You don't even need to know how awesome the endgame gear is to go on the raid to get the endgame gear.

If you know how awesome the endgame gear is, all that happens is that you want it.

So there's a distinction to be drawn here, between knowledge of the game that helps you form goals, and knowledge of the game that helps you attain them. I would argue that while you are sometimes better off not knowing things that help you form goals, you are never better off not knowing things that would help you attain them.

[schild]

If you know how awesome the endgame gear is, all that happens is that you want it.

All that happens is I no longer want to play the game. The moment I know what everyone is chasing after, all the allure goes right out the fucking window.

Why keep playing if there's nothing left to discover?

[sam, an eggplant]

It's great that WoW has expanded the MMO playerbase. Unfortunately this means that millions of people haven't had the opportunity or incentive to learn from past mistakes.

Everquest tried to obscure game mechanics as much as possible. They didn't tell players what effect stats had on gameplay, how speed impacted melee damage, or even how much XP it took to level. Players then sat down and laboriously calculated all this information, and found that stats were functionally meaningless (these tests were actually done by me), speed was king and slow weapons worthless, and that humans leveled slower than halflings with no racial advantages while halflings had night vision. It was a debacle, and one that is unlikely to be repeated. And rightfully so.

Game mechanics must be transparent and intuitive.

[Ingmar]

I recall the first time I played a moderated Squad Leader game at a tournament (many moons ago), where we didn't know the opponents forces nor victory conditions.  At first I was WTF is this?!?!  But the fun level was 10x instead of doing Game Algebra to compute exactly what to do, one had to scout and try to guess, if you were supposed to attack or run away!  

Ladies and gentlemen, you have just witnessed history. This is the first time a Squad Leader player has ever argued against having rules for something. In fact I'm pretty sure ASL has a rule against things that aren't covered by rules.

[Ingmar]

If you know how awesome the endgame gear is, all that happens is that you want it.

All that happens is I no longer want to play the game. The moment I know what everyone is chasing after, all the allure goes right out the fucking window.

Why keep playing if there's nothing left to discover?

You're essentially arguing against spoilers though, and I don't think anyone has a problem with people who don't want spoilers. Knowing the mechanics of how my Stab #32 attack works, what kinds of stats are beneficial for it and in what proportion, etc., is not really spoiler information, especially if it becomes relevant to, say, irreversible spec decisions I have to make like in Diablo 2 or DAOC before they had respec stones. You can't hide that kind of thing from players and expect many of them to be happy about it.

[Glazius]

If you know how awesome the endgame gear is, all that happens is that you want it.

All that happens is I no longer want to play the game. The moment I know what everyone is chasing after, all the allure goes right out the fucking window.

Why keep playing if there's nothing left to discover?

Okay, but look back up. "This is the endgame gear" is a piece of knowledge that doesn't help you play the game at all, only to form goals within the game. It's not always useful, so in some cases knowing it can be counterproductive.

It's like how Watson told Holmes that the moon revolved around the Earth and Holmes was all "Yeah, that's gonna come in real handy when Moriarity goes to his secret moon base- OH WAIT. Now I have to forget that so it doesn't block out something that would actually HELP ME SOLVE CRIMES. Thanks a lot, dipwad." Not useful knowledge. Counterproductive.

I'm not against mystery, I'm against... well.

Everquest tried to obscure game mechanics as much as possible. They didn't tell players what effect stats had on gameplay, how speed impacted melee damage, or even how much XP it took to level. Players then sat down and laboriously calculated all this information, and found that stats were functionally meaningless (these tests were actually done by me), speed was king and slow weapons worthless, and that humans leveled slower than halflings with no racial advantages while halflings had night vision. It was a debacle, and one that is unlikely to be repeated. And rightfully so.

Game mechanics must be transparent.

I'm against... obscurity? Opacity? Bullshit number goofery?

It's the difference between knowing the answer to "I want to do more damage: which weapon does the most damage?" and "I want to do more damage: which of these weapons in my backpack deals more damage?"

Knowing the answer to the first question is something that it's okay to discover for yourself on your own terms. But there's no case where it would be appropriate not to know the answer to the second question.

[Sunbury]

I recall the first time I played a moderated Squad Leader game at a tournament (many moons ago), where we didn't know the opponents forces nor victory conditions.  At first I was WTF is this?!?!  But the fun level was 10x instead of doing Game Algebra to compute exactly what to do, one had to scout and try to guess, if you were supposed to attack or run away!  

Ladies and gentlemen, you have just witnessed history. This is the first time a Squad Leader player has ever argued against having rules for something. In fact I'm pretty sure ASL has a rule against things that aren't covered by rules.

I never did read the ASL rulebook, I had moved away when that came out but bought it for fun.  This was with the original Squad Leader, back in 1977, at a tournament in Indiana hosted partially by John Hill himself.  (Mr. Burns voice: Yes, I'm old). 

But again, I'm not saying don't know the basic rules, but don't give away the situation where you have to use those rules.  Like Steel Panther scenario's, I can't play them more than once, since after that I know the enemy setup, its just not as much fun.

[Slyfeind]

I like to know what I'm going for. Say there's an awesome hat that makes me immune to fire. I want it, so I go on an adventure to get it. What sucks is if the game tells you how to get it, every step of the way. But it's cool if the players figure it out, make a wiki, and tell all the secrets there. In one case, the developers are playing the game for you. In the other case, you're getting information from other people in the community. But you don't have to get it; you could just go blind through the whole thing.

[Ratman_tf]

Why keep playing if there's nothing left to discover?

Is that kind of like how no one played Diablo/Diablo 2 after beating it on Normal mode because they'd already mastered the gameplay?

[schild]

Why keep playing if there's nothing left to discover?

Is that kind of like how no one played Diablo/Diablo 2 after beating it on Normal mode because they'd already mastered the gameplay?

Don't care if it's green, you missed the point. Diablo has an infinite horizon. It is in fact created and designed in a way to AVOID the problems I mentioned.

[Ratman_tf]

Why keep playing if there's nothing left to discover?

Is that kind of like how no one played Diablo/Diablo 2 after beating it on Normal mode because they'd already mastered the gameplay?

Don't care if it's green, you missed the point. Diablo has an infinite horizon. It is in fact created and designed in a way to AVOID the problems I mentioned.

Bullshit. Once you beat the first act in Diablo 2, you've mastered the basic gameplay. Once you've beaten Baal on Normal mode, you've seen everything the game has to offer. All Nightmare and Hell modes offer is bigger numbers.

[schild]

Bullshit. Once you beat the first act in Diablo 2, you've mastered the basic gameplay. Once you've beaten Baal on Normal mode, you've seen everything the game has to offer. All Nightmare and Hell modes offer is bigger numbers.

Oh. I see. You're not playing for the loot.

Doing Diablo wrong, itt.

[Evildrider]

I was the same way.. the game wasn't enjoyable enough for me to play through it over and over again just for loot.

[Lantyssa]

Games where decisions cannot be easily reversed, or which focus extensively on one mechanic as a means to an end, do not lend themselves well to hidden rules.  I'm thinking talent trees, DPS, and such, although it's applicable to many systems.  If players are allowed to change things up, or there's more than one way to beat encounters, then having hidden features and rules aren't as bad.

[Hawkbit]

I was in a progression WoW guild twice over the past ~4 years and I may have finally learned my lesson.  First time, we put MC on farm and started BWL.  My dps wasn't high enough and people started bitching.  Finally I said fuck it, and quit.  I came back for BC, made top hunter in our guild this time.  We put Kharazan/Mags/Gruul on farm, pushed through TK/SSC and then realized I was telling someone in the guild that their dps wasn't high enough and they couldn't come with us until they fixed their shit.  I quit then and there, after realizing what I was doing.  I realize you don't want to play with retards, but *I* don't want to play with actuarialists.   

Looking back on the 'fun' that was WoW raiding:  What rotation maximizes dps?  What gems do I use?  What gear is best?  What enchants?  What potions/elixirs/flasks?  What spec?  Blah fucking blah blah. 

No part of that is fun to me.  Schild's right on this one about knowing the endgame before getting there.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Schild you are confusing me.

You are saying diablo lends well to several playthroughs yet the game is the same except for the loot.

You are also saying playing because of the loot is play diablo wrong?

I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here, the only difference in diablo playthroughs is mobs hit harder so you get higher stats from loot to kill harder mobs, wash rinse, repeat ad nauseum.

Also maybe i'm in the spreadhseet category but rpg's where you miss picking a blue flower in the first zone and therefore can't give it to the princess to get the good ending where you have many children and the only way you would have known to keep that flower was in a strategy guide....those games piss me right the fuck off. I enjoy some mystery in games but i dislike artificial cockblocks as ways to introduce replay value to a game. if your game is fun enough to replay i will, don't make me do it so i can get the 100% super seekret ending with a happy ending included.

also :mmo's are not rpg's