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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  Warhammer Online (Moderator: tazelbain)  |  Topic: Players' activity in the longer term and mentoring systems 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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HRose
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on: August 20, 2008, 07:45:45 AM

Simply put, I believe that Warhammer's bigger strength is in the varied gameplay alternatives it provides.

Got bored with PvE quests? Then go join a Public Quest. Got bored with the Public Quest? Then go join a scenario for some mindless PvP. Got bored with the redundant scenario? Then move to an RvR area and fight for control.

It's fun and easily accessible. And Accessibility was the premise that made WoW's success possible.

The problem is when, a few months down the road, the action focuses up and the players concentrate at the endgame. Suddenly for a new player the Public Quests stop working, you can't queue for scenarios, and the RvR zones have no players in them. What made the game fun, backfires.

What surprised me here is Mythic refusal of a de-levelling system that would allow characters to still access lower level zones and help keeping it active. Something like a mentoring system. Instead they say that mentoring systems punish true noobs as veteran players only group between each other.

Maybe true, but it's not like their presence in the zones *damages* the gameplay of noobs. Especially because PQ are collaborative and so is RvR. Added to the fact that players will still have twinked alts as even the lower level zones contribute to the RvR progression endgame.

So, why not using a system that makes easier the access to lower level zones and actually use it to keep those zones more alive and playable?

For example some kind of recruiting system where, instead of being turned in a chicken if you try to walk in a lower level zones, you go to NPC, get de-levelled, swap to one of four (as per zone tiers) "presets" of skillbars and equipment, and then can freely roam in those zones and help them stay alive. Maybe even adding incentives like special loot and titles working like "achievements" (same bonuses of the items in the zone but giving "status" and cool looking).

-HRose / Abalieno
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Reply #1 on: August 20, 2008, 07:53:57 AM

Instead they say that mentoring systems punish true noobs as veteran players only group between each other.

The hell it does.

I'm sure it will come out in an expansion. It'd stupid not to.

Mrbloodworth
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Reply #2 on: August 20, 2008, 08:02:07 AM

To me, with the chicken system and what you describe, and what i have been reading. Warhammer is more of a guided experience than just about any other MMO out there. There is a beginning middle and end, and you can never go back, its a one way track.

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amiable
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Reply #3 on: August 20, 2008, 08:06:30 AM

On core servers you can still access lower level zones as long as you are not PvP flagged.  So that only prevents you from questing in the PvP areas at a higher level.
Kirth
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Reply #4 on: August 20, 2008, 08:06:47 AM

This is one of my concerns, 6 months out when most of the player base is concentrated in the end game what is going to keep new players intrested. one of my theories is something that could drive new player recruitment is the addition of new race pairings.
Vinadil
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Reply #5 on: August 20, 2008, 08:46:42 AM

One of the things we have asked for in beta is the ability to cross-queue.  Right now scenarios require you to be "in" that races lands to queue for their scenario.  If they allowed you to queue for all 3 scenarios in your tier then presumably you would have more scenarios popping.

They seem to have some mechanics for de-levelling in place also... so I think this would be a good idea to look into.  They basically do the opposite right now, Up-levelling you when you do PvP stuff.  It seems like it could work in the opposite and just move your stats/abilities to a preset level.

The "good" thing, if there is one, is that it only takes 2-3 other people in the zone to allow you to complete all of the content, and 9-10 in a Tier (Tier is generally a 10-level gap) to make scenarios pop.  So, they are probably betting that there are that many noobs playing at any given time on any given server.
Abelian75
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Reply #6 on: August 20, 2008, 08:48:59 AM

They also might add in the ability to downscale the difficulty of PQs at some point down the road if/when the lower tiers become lightly populated, but this doesn't really seem like it will be a problem at/soon after launch.
HRose
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Reply #7 on: August 20, 2008, 09:09:45 AM

They also might add in the ability to downscale the difficulty of PQs at some point down the road if/when the lower tiers become lightly populated, but this doesn't really seem like it will be a problem at/soon after launch.
It IS already problem.

Not due to depopulation but in overpopulation.

PQs could be so much more fun if the tiers were dynamically adjusted on the number of players participating. It's a brain dead solution that is easy to implement and brings so many advantages.

If I had to list two basic things that undermine the game and that would make it so much better are these:
- Regulating the players' activity so that all options are easily accessible at all time and all levels
- Implementing a goddamned skill queuing that would allow me to look away from the damned hotbar and spam keys endlessly. NOT FUN!

-HRose / Abalieno
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HRose
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Reply #8 on: August 20, 2008, 09:45:40 AM

Forgot my biggest pet peeve:

Why the fuck they gave us those big, round overhead icons on NPCs but DIDN'T MAKE THEM USABLE?

I'm trained by DoW and Company of Heroes that icons are used to ease the selection. It's an intuitive idea and also lets you avoid to having to target the NPC model when it is hidden by tenths of players around him.

WHY NOT?

-HRose / Abalieno
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Morfiend
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Reply #9 on: August 20, 2008, 10:14:34 AM

One of the things we have asked for in beta is the ability to cross-queue.  Right now scenarios require you to be "in" that races lands to queue for their scenario.  If they allowed you to queue for all 3 scenarios in your tier then presumably you would have more scenarios popping.

They seem to have some mechanics for de-levelling in place also... so I think this would be a good idea to look into.  They basically do the opposite right now, Up-levelling you when you do PvP stuff.  It seems like it could work in the opposite and just move your stats/abilities to a preset level.


I completely agree with both. Having to "be" in the realm to queue is kind of silly, when they went out of their way to make PVP accessible. Also, I hate the chicken. As far as I can tell, once your a chicken the only way to get it off is to die. I think deleveling would have been a much better mechanic, the only problem is that how do you make deleveling fair? If your higher level does it put you at the max level for that zone? If so it makes it much harder to PVP as anything other than max level.
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Reply #10 on: August 20, 2008, 10:38:20 AM

Since the chicken is tied to the flag,  I imagine you have to unflag.  I have unflagged serveral times.  Seems about 10 minutes after I left the RvR area or after I left a group with flagged people in it.

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HRose
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Reply #11 on: August 20, 2008, 10:40:39 AM

If your higher level does it put you at the max level for that zone? If so it makes it much harder to PVP as anything other than max level.
If that's true then de-levelling only exposes a problem that must be solved: the power differential within a tier should be lowered so that the gap is reduced.

-HRose / Abalieno
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amiable
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Reply #12 on: August 20, 2008, 10:58:45 AM

Since the chicken is tied to the flag,  I imagine you have to unflag.  I have unflagged serveral times.  Seems about 10 minutes after I left the RvR area or after I left a group with flagged people in it.

Or hop onto a flight master and run to the next zone, you will auto-deflag.
Vinadil
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Reply #13 on: August 20, 2008, 11:28:07 AM

One of the things we have asked for in beta is the ability to cross-queue.  Right now scenarios require you to be "in" that races lands to queue for their scenario.  If they allowed you to queue for all 3 scenarios in your tier then presumably you would have more scenarios popping.

They seem to have some mechanics for de-levelling in place also... so I think this would be a good idea to look into.  They basically do the opposite right now, Up-levelling you when you do PvP stuff.  It seems like it could work in the opposite and just move your stats/abilities to a preset level.


I completely agree with both. Having to "be" in the realm to queue is kind of silly, when they went out of their way to make PVP accessible. Also, I hate the chicken. As far as I can tell, once your a chicken the only way to get it off is to die. I think deleveling would have been a much better mechanic, the only problem is that how do you make deleveling fair? If your higher level does it put you at the max level for that zone? If so it makes it much harder to PVP as anything other than max level.

Just make it the same level.  Your currently jump to 8, 18, 28, 36 I believe.  I am not sure on the Tier 3 (20s), but I think that is right.  When you de-level you would move to that same level with that ability set.  So, a higher level character would actually be gimped compared to a true say level 10 character in the same instance.  Seems fair to me.  I would do that to help a noob guildie through his early levels.  Scaling the gear might be more of an issue... not sure how that works in their database and if something as simple as a -% damage/stat thing would do it.  Somehow I doubt it is that simple.
HRose
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Reply #14 on: August 20, 2008, 11:35:43 AM

Scaling the gear might be more of an issue... not sure how that works in their database and if something as simple as a -% damage/stat thing would do it.  Somehow I doubt it is that simple.
No need for this.

You go to a recruiter NPC, talk to him about de-levelling yourself. Then get the possibility to store both skill bars preset and armor sets.

Think of it like a bank that works specifically to store things for de-levelling. It would also fun to add specific, special armor sets that you can unlock and use only in lower level tiers when you are de-levelled. As I said, like achievements.

Think like a "Tier 1 Epic set". With no better stats, but with a special look that acknowledges your activity there.

-HRose / Abalieno
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Fraeg
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Reply #15 on: August 20, 2008, 02:54:37 PM

pretty sure you can de-chicken by just walking into an rvr zone/area that is appropriate for your lvl and you are de-boned.

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Venkman
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Reply #16 on: August 20, 2008, 06:14:45 PM

The problem is when, a few months down the road, the action focuses up and the players concentrate at the endgame. Suddenly for a new player the Public Quests stop working, you can't queue for scenarios, and the RvR zones have no players in them. What made the game fun, backfires.

This was the very first critique I had from late last year. And I'm not mentioning that to brag. It's just a reality that is noticeable right away and has never been addressed. Probably because by that point it was intrinsic to the layout of the game.

WAR is going to be awesome for the first three months. After that... well, it's really then a question of when they implement /level and mentoring.
Draegan
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Reply #17 on: August 20, 2008, 07:50:01 PM

The problem is when, a few months down the road, the action focuses up and the players concentrate at the endgame. Suddenly for a new player the Public Quests stop working, you can't queue for scenarios, and the RvR zones have no players in them. What made the game fun, backfires.

This was the very first critique I had from late last year. And I'm not mentioning that to brag. It's just a reality that is noticeable right away and has never been addressed. Probably because by that point it was intrinsic to the layout of the game.

WAR is going to be awesome for the first three months. After that... well, it's really then a question of when they implement /level and mentoring.

However this game is very conducive to alts.  If you have a healthy server I would venture to guess a good chance of a somewhat populated lower tiers for an extended amount of time.
Venkman
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Reply #18 on: August 22, 2008, 06:11:45 PM

An interesting point, but it depends on two things:

How many people will alt together?
How much does the endgame keep people so interested they don't have time for alts?

The varied engaging experiences we can have at launch from PvE quests to PQs to Scenarios to RvR are not going to be as varied after a few months. The things to most suffer will be PQs and RvR. Quests are a dime a dozen and scenarios can be had even if you have fewer concurrent instances of them. But if you leveled up on PQs and RvR and loved that, don't expect to consistently do so with an alt.

The problem too with alts is the multi-faction split. You're expecting that not only enough folks on your side level up concurrently and do so as alts, but that you also have your prime enemy doing the same.

I actually see alts being something done less here than in WoW, unless they amp the XP gain through PvE quests and find some way to make PQs workable with less folks. In the early days we had discussed how to balance PQs dynamically for example. Really not sure if that will ever come, but that sort of thinking will come up again.

As will /level and mentoring smiley
Draegan
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Reply #19 on: August 23, 2008, 11:08:12 AM

Traveling between realms is incredibly easy.  People love making alts, and they will do so.  They will do it just like they do in WOW.  Nothing in this game prevents that.
Sunbury
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Reply #20 on: August 25, 2008, 06:10:47 AM

From what I've read, capturing the opposing sides capital city requires capturing objectives on all 4 tiers.

I'm guessing that will be a goal of large guilds / groups of large guilds.

So that means guild members will create characters 'ready to go' at each tier, then switch between them.   It will be ongoing tasks for guild members to build these characters - and then stop, until during 'capital attempts' usage.

That may be a source of players at the lower tiers as the game ages.
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