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Venkman
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Reply #805 on: May 26, 2009, 06:02:47 AM

Ok, related question. I tried looking up airflow articles at Toms, but they're talking to experts in a language I'm just learning (good learning on diminishing returns with fans though). So I'll ask here.

120mm fan exhaust halfway up the back.
80mm fan intake halfway up the side (basically blows right onto the video card)
120mm fan intake in the bottom of the front (arriving Thursday, I only have an 80mm in there now).
VGA Cooling Fan (cheap bet).

Two questions:

1) How much does fan speed matter? I found a cheap 80mm that goes above 2000rpm to replace the one on the side that only goes to 1200rpm, but I wasn't sure so figured I'd ask.
2) Do I need another exhaust in the top of the case or will the one 120mm in the back do it?
Bunk
Contributor
Posts: 5828

Operating Thetan One


Reply #806 on: May 26, 2009, 06:07:52 AM

So I think I'm going to buy a new video card on my way home from work today, and wanted some feedback. Here are the options I'm looking at:

EVGA GeForce GTX 275 633MHZ 896MB 2.26GHZ DDR3 PCI-E Dual DVI-I HDTV Out Video Card        $278.88 (all prices CDN)
XFX Radeon HD 4890 XT 1GB 875MHZ 1GB 3.9GHZ GDDR5 PCI-E 2XDVI HDTV Video Card               $279.00 (after $20 mail in)
EVGA E-GEFORCE 9800GT 55NM 600MHZ 512MB 1.8GHZ 256BIT GDDR3 Dual DVI-I HDCP HDTV       $119.00 (after $20 mail in)
EVGA E-GEFORCE GTX 260 Core 216 55NM 576MHZ 896MB 1.998GHZ GDDR3 PCI-E 2XDVI-I HDTV    $189.99 (after $30 mail in)

Those appear to be the best deals in my current price range. I haven't been keeping up on video cards lately, so any feedback would be appreciated. I'll be upgrading from an 8800GS.

I'd rather not go right too my $300 limit, but I will if it makes sense.

"Welcome to the internet, pussy." - VDL
"I have retard strength." - Schild
Trippy
Administrator
Posts: 23611


Reply #807 on: May 26, 2009, 06:32:15 AM

Ok, related question. I tried looking up airflow articles at Toms, but they're talking to experts in a language I'm just learning (good learning on diminishing returns with fans though). So I'll ask here.

120mm fan exhaust halfway up the back.
80mm fan intake halfway up the side (basically blows right onto the video card)
120mm fan intake in the bottom of the front (arriving Thursday, I only have an 80mm in there now).
VGA Cooling Fan (cheap bet).

Two questions:

1) How much does fan speed matter? I found a cheap 80mm that goes above 2000rpm to replace the one on the side that only goes to 1200rpm, but I wasn't sure so figured I'd ask.
CFM is more useful than RPM. CFM = airflow measured as cubic feet per minute. Roughly speaking for fans of the same size the one that spins faster should give you larger CFM but that's not a guarantee. Noise is also an important factor unless you don't mind your case sounding like a jet turbine engine.

Quote
2) Do I need another exhaust in the top of the case or will the one 120mm in the back do it?
Only way to know for sure is to test it. (Take temps with and without the top fan).
Trippy
Administrator
Posts: 23611


Reply #808 on: May 26, 2009, 06:33:16 AM

So I think I'm going to buy a new video card on my way home from work today, and wanted some feedback. Here are the options I'm looking at:

EVGA GeForce GTX 275 633MHZ 896MB 2.26GHZ DDR3 PCI-E Dual DVI-I HDTV Out Video Card        $278.88 (all prices CDN)
XFX Radeon HD 4890 XT 1GB 875MHZ 1GB 3.9GHZ GDDR5 PCI-E 2XDVI HDTV Video Card               $279.00 (after $20 mail in)
EVGA E-GEFORCE 9800GT 55NM 600MHZ 512MB 1.8GHZ 256BIT GDDR3 Dual DVI-I HDCP HDTV       $119.00 (after $20 mail in)
EVGA E-GEFORCE GTX 260 Core 216 55NM 576MHZ 896MB 1.998GHZ GDDR3 PCI-E 2XDVI-I HDTV    $189.99 (after $30 mail in)

Those appear to be the best deals in my current price range. I haven't been keeping up on video cards lately, so any feedback would be appreciated. I'll be upgrading from an 8800GS.

I'd rather not go right too my $300 limit, but I will if it makes sense.
What resolution do you run your games at?
Bunk
Contributor
Posts: 5828

Operating Thetan One


Reply #809 on: May 26, 2009, 06:38:00 AM

1680 x 1050

"Welcome to the internet, pussy." - VDL
"I have retard strength." - Schild
Trippy
Administrator
Posts: 23611


Reply #810 on: May 26, 2009, 06:40:38 AM

1680 x 1050
I'd go with the 260, or a 4870 if you prefer ATI.

The 9800 GT isn't going to be a big upgrade from your existing card (Think 8800 GS to 8800 GT). The 275 or 4890 is most likely overkill at your resolution.
Bunk
Contributor
Posts: 5828

Operating Thetan One


Reply #811 on: May 26, 2009, 06:58:10 AM

Thanks man, that'll save me a few bucks.

"Welcome to the internet, pussy." - VDL
"I have retard strength." - Schild
Venkman
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Posts: 11536


Reply #812 on: May 26, 2009, 07:04:03 AM

Ok thanks Trippy.

And Bunk's question has me thinking about vidcards down the road. If I planned to purchase today, playing at the same 1680x1050, would the 260 be a significant enough upgrade from the 8800GTS? Or would a second 8800GTS in SLI be better?
Trippy
Administrator
Posts: 23611


Reply #813 on: May 26, 2009, 07:41:27 AM

Ok thanks Trippy.

And Bunk's question has me thinking about vidcards down the road. If I planned to purchase today, playing at the same 1680x1050, would the 260 be a significant enough upgrade from the 8800GTS? Or would a second 8800GTS in SLI be better?
2nd 8800 GTS would be better for games that have decent support for SLI. Going from a single G92 8800 GTS to a 260 Core 216, it's going to depend on the game and quality settings. Some games, like say, Source Engine games, you probably won't notice any difference. For other games, like, say Crysis, you'll probably notice a signifcant difference.


Bunk
Contributor
Posts: 5828

Operating Thetan One


Reply #814 on: May 26, 2009, 07:57:15 AM

Also worth noting, I have the cheap 8800 that came with 384MB. I would have a really hard time finding a second one to SLI, and wouldn't really want to.

"Welcome to the internet, pussy." - VDL
"I have retard strength." - Schild
Hoax
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l33t kiddie


Reply #815 on: May 26, 2009, 08:01:24 AM

Try to get something without the mail in rebate, because MIR's are really stupid and they wont give it to you half the time.

A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
-William Gibson
Venkman
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Posts: 11536


Reply #816 on: May 26, 2009, 12:22:05 PM

Ok thanks Trippy.

And Bunk's question has me thinking about vidcards down the road. If I planned to purchase today, playing at the same 1680x1050, would the 260 be a significant enough upgrade from the 8800GTS? Or would a second 8800GTS in SLI be better?
2nd 8800 GTS would be better for games that have decent support for SLI. Going from a single G92 8800 GTS to a 260 Core 216, it's going to depend on the game and quality settings. Some games, like say, Source Engine games, you probably won't notice any difference. For other games, like, say Crysis, you'll probably notice a signifcant difference.

Ah still case by case then. Ok, will wait for now. Nothing has been disappointing me visual/performance wise yet. Just the heat thing.
Strazos
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Posts: 15542

The World's Worst Game: Curry or Covid


Reply #817 on: May 26, 2009, 08:25:33 PM

Have you looked at your CPU/HSF again yet?

Fear the Backstab!
"Plato said the virtuous man is at all times ready for a grammar snake attack." - we are lesion
"Hell is other people." -Sartre
Venkman
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Posts: 11536


Reply #818 on: May 27, 2009, 04:40:39 AM

After a few days, it seems to be operating at a pretty steady range. I have Speedfan logs at home, but the pattern of peaks and valleys (I'm a visual guy wink) is what I'd expect between idle/load. It's a little warm in my opinion, but when I get the new fans I ordered tomorrow, I'll be able to tell a bit better. Everything I've read says the 8800GTS runs a bit hot. If the fans/airflow don't impact the temperature under load at all, then I'll be taking it apart to see if they borked the thermal paste as Lantyssa had suggested. At that point I might actually just put liquid cooling back in. It's not so much that I need it per se, since according to the specs (and Trippy's confirmation), I'm now running in the safe idle/load range). It's more a piece of mind thing. No matter what I do this computer still sits under my desk blowing air out the back with no flow under that desk.

I still am curious why the last CPU and mobo broke though after only two years. Maybe that's common, but I've never had that happen over the course of four laptops, two Macs and three other desktops (that's not a lot of computers for 20 years, so I accept that luck could be a part). But heck, my old Alienware box is a media server I barely clean that out annually, and my father's been using my 10 year old Dell (from the DRAM days) to run his business for seven years.

The only things I can think of is either they overclocked it the wrong way, or something went crappy on one component and it took down the other one.
Engels
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inflicts shingles.


Reply #819 on: May 27, 2009, 06:48:57 AM

I have an 8800GT that had a miserable little fan and a dorky heatsink, idling at 70 C (158F) up to 94C (200F) at load .  My box has two 120 front intake fans, one 120 in back and a 120 on the cpu itself. The only thing that brought the GPU temp down was buying an aftermarket zalman GPU fan. It brought the temp down significantly to around 60C at load, 48C at idle.

Not only was the factory cooler's fan miserably small for the task, the 'thermal' paste was gobs and gobs of this white goop, which as Lantyssa suggested earlier, was probably acting as an insulator rather than a conductor.

I should get back to nature, too.  You know, like going to a shop for groceries instead of the computer.  Maybe a condo in the woods that doesn't even have a health club or restaurant attached.  Buy a car with only two cup holders or something. -Signe

I LIKE being bounced around by Tonkors. - Lantyssa

Babies shooting themselves in the head is the state bird of West Virginia. - schild
Venkman
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Posts: 11536


Reply #820 on: May 27, 2009, 08:53:03 AM

One of these guys?. I ask because I was checking out one from Artic Cooling and in the process also came across this bigger model.
Engels
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Posts: 9029

inflicts shingles.


Reply #821 on: May 27, 2009, 09:53:45 AM

Yep, that's exactly the one I used. I don't know if I would bother with the monstrosity you linked. I'm not convinced it would do a better job.

I should get back to nature, too.  You know, like going to a shop for groceries instead of the computer.  Maybe a condo in the woods that doesn't even have a health club or restaurant attached.  Buy a car with only two cup holders or something. -Signe

I LIKE being bounced around by Tonkors. - Lantyssa

Babies shooting themselves in the head is the state bird of West Virginia. - schild
rattran
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Posts: 4257

Unreasonable


Reply #822 on: May 27, 2009, 10:12:08 AM

One problem I've seen with some watercooling setups, is nothing to cool the other hot bits. Northbridge/Southbridge/MCP/mosfets/heat-generating-chip-o-doom whathaveyou on the board. And as annoying as people find 2slot video cards, I prefer them as it gets more of the heat from the gpu out of the case, rather than having it get pushed off the card into the general area.

And the number of fans isn't as important as getting the air to flow through.
Venkman
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Posts: 11536


Reply #823 on: May 27, 2009, 11:42:09 AM

Ok, so after the new fans I'll take a look at that Zalman VF900. Thanks guys.
Yegolev
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WWW
Reply #824 on: May 29, 2009, 06:23:15 AM

I have a Win .bat file and I want it to wait instead of closing when it completes, but I forget how to have a batch file request keyboard input.  I just need something stupid that will just wait for input, like 'read'.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
They called it The Prayer, its answer was law
Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
Engels
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Posts: 9029

inflicts shingles.


Reply #825 on: May 29, 2009, 06:48:01 AM

Would the pause command work? Stops the script and wait for any keystroke to continue. Anyways....

http://www.microsoft.com/resources/documentation/windows/xp/all/proddocs/en-us/ntcmds.mspx?mfr=true

I should get back to nature, too.  You know, like going to a shop for groceries instead of the computer.  Maybe a condo in the woods that doesn't even have a health club or restaurant attached.  Buy a car with only two cup holders or something. -Signe

I LIKE being bounced around by Tonkors. - Lantyssa

Babies shooting themselves in the head is the state bird of West Virginia. - schild
Yegolev
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Posts: 24440

2/10 WOULD NOT INGEST


WWW
Reply #826 on: May 29, 2009, 07:07:49 AM

Would the pause command work? Stops the script and wait for any keystroke to continue.

Yes.  Thank you.  Also thanks for the link, seems like I had that link somewhere in the past but I've been a real dumbass lately.  Too much AIX/SAP/Oracle/DB2/perl/ksh being crammed into my head, pushing out other things.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
They called it The Prayer, its answer was law
Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
NiX
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Posts: 7770

Locomotive Pandamonium


Reply #827 on: May 31, 2009, 11:28:43 AM

Anyone know how to remove dud programs from the Uninstall Programs list in Windows 7? I've tried solutions for Vista and they don't work. The program doesn't show up in Registry either.
Venkman
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Posts: 11536


Reply #828 on: May 31, 2009, 02:14:46 PM

Sorry for the length of these "quick" questions. I'm learning a lot here about topics I never worried about before.

I've been manipulating fan intakes and exhausts, trying to find something optimal for noise and temp, and came across Real Temp (and that awesome Toms Hardware Core Temp article) from SnakeCharmer's summer 2008 cooling opinions thread.

While would Real Temp 3.0 show a core temperature a full 20 degrees C less than SpeedFan?  Here's what I've got going on right now:

  • SpeedFan 4.38- GPU: 58C, Core0: 55C, Core1: 52C, Core2: 52C, Core3: 56C
  • Real Temp 3.00- GPU: 58C, Core0: 31C, Core1: 31C, Core2: 28C, Core 3: 28C

Is Real Temp giving me a thermal junction reading why SpeedFan a case reading? Seems like that could be happening given how close the Core temps are to the GPU.

Is this disparity a result in me flubbing some setting in SpeedFan? Here's what I've got atm in Configure (man I love that these programs use CSV logs):


As an aside, according to Intel, my max core temps should be 76.3C. For the last few nights, my peaks and valleys have looked roughly like this:


I'm not particularly comfortable running that close to the cap. Today I moved some of the fans around. The 120mm in the back seems real wimpy though. Any contemporary advice on a good 120mm? And Trippy, you mentioned earlier that CFM > RPM. Any advice on a good CFM? I've got a this Thermaltake in the front, set around 4600RPM (no idea what that is in CFM), but both that 120mm and the other 80mm I have as exhaust on the side don't seem as up to the task as they could be. And I don't want another Thermaltake if I can help it because this one is pretty freakin' loud at max speed.
rattran
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Posts: 4257

Unreasonable


Reply #829 on: May 31, 2009, 04:33:47 PM

I like Scythe fans, I'm using Scythe S-Flex Es in my case currently, they have slightly louder ones at higher cfm and quieter/lower.
Strazos
Greetings from the Slave Coast
Posts: 15542

The World's Worst Game: Curry or Covid


Reply #830 on: May 31, 2009, 05:01:42 PM

I like CoolerMaster fans.

Fear the Backstab!
"Plato said the virtuous man is at all times ready for a grammar snake attack." - we are lesion
"Hell is other people." -Sartre
rattran
Moderator
Posts: 4257

Unreasonable


Reply #831 on: May 31, 2009, 06:18:44 PM

I have all CoolerMaster cases now, but their fans move less air and are noisier than the various scythes. The only fan of their I haven't replaced is the fairly low rpm huge one on the side of the HAF case. ymmv
Trippy
Administrator
Posts: 23611


Reply #832 on: May 31, 2009, 08:24:15 PM

Sorry for the length of these "quick" questions. I'm learning a lot here about topics I never worried about before.

I've been manipulating fan intakes and exhausts, trying to find something optimal for noise and temp, and came across Real Temp (and that awesome Toms Hardware Core Temp article) from SnakeCharmer's summer 2008 cooling opinions thread.

While would Real Temp 3.0 show a core temperature a full 20 degrees C less than SpeedFan?  Here's what I've got going on right now:

  • SpeedFan 4.38- GPU: 58C, Core0: 55C, Core1: 52C, Core2: 52C, Core3: 56C
  • Real Temp 3.00- GPU: 58C, Core0: 31C, Core1: 31C, Core2: 28C, Core 3: 28C

Is Real Temp giving me a thermal junction reading why SpeedFan a case reading? Seems like that could be happening given how close the Core temps are to the GPU.

Is this disparity a result in me flubbing some setting in SpeedFan? Here's what I've got atm in Configure (man I love that these programs use CSV logs):
What CPU do you have and what CPUID is Real Temp reporting? And what is the delta from TJ Max?
Murgos
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Posts: 7474


Reply #833 on: June 01, 2009, 06:10:36 AM

Just as an aside, be careful how much faith you put into the numbers generated by 3rd party temp monitoring utilities.

What they do is poll a register on the MB that the maker of the program is 'pretty sure' is where the MB maker stores the readings.  Those readings are usually pretty straight forward and follow a common format but also sometimes they aren't.

Some MB manufacturers publish that info and others don't.  Also, some of the temp monitoring programs are well maintained and others, not so much.

What I am saying is that you might need to do some homework on how well supported your board/utility combo is.

"You have all recieved youre last warning. I am in the process of currently tracking all of youre ips and pinging your home adressess. you should not have commencemed a war with me" - Aaron Rayburn
Trippy
Administrator
Posts: 23611


Reply #834 on: June 01, 2009, 06:23:00 AM

These days temperatures can be read directly from the CPU without having to go through some funky sensor monitoring chip on the MB. Unfortunately the way the Intel CPUs report the information is all fucked up as they report a delta from a value (Tjunction Max) that Intel, for some inexplicable reason, is loathe to publish comprehensively. This is why different programs report different temperatures. Their databases of CPUs have differing values for Tj Max.

« Last Edit: June 01, 2009, 06:25:51 AM by Trippy »
Lantyssa
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Posts: 20848


Reply #835 on: June 01, 2009, 09:32:40 AM

Today I moved some of the fans around. The 120mm in the back seems real wimpy though. Any contemporary advice on a good 120mm?
Keep in mind the larger fans run slower.  They can still move a lot of air when they feel like they are not doing much because of their increased area. (2.25 increase in area for the 80mm -> 120mm)

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
Yegolev
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WWW
Reply #836 on: June 01, 2009, 02:58:29 PM

This is less of a question and more of a "give a hoot, don't be a dumbass": in thinking on how to get Demigod to actually connect to other players, I suddenly got the idea that I should put my DSL modem into DMZ mode.  After all, the only thing connecting to it is my router, which does NAT.  In any case, I wasn't able to see a magical improvement in Demigod but I did finally pass a utorrent port-forward test (after I put the new port number into my router's port-forwarding list).  I also decided to enable security on the DSL modem's wireless adapter even though I have it turned off, and I set it to channel 3 (my router uses channel 1) because I don't trust machines.  I am pretty sure that I am not imagining a slight speed boost, but then again I might be.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
They called it The Prayer, its answer was law
Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
Venkman
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Posts: 11536


Reply #837 on: June 01, 2009, 03:39:54 PM

What CPU do you have and what CPUID is Real Temp reporting? And what is the delta from TJ Max?

CPU: Quad Q9550
Temp being reported: 23, 23, 18, 19 (all celcius)
Delta from TJ Max: 53, 53, 58, 57.
Venkman
Terracotta Army
Posts: 11536


Reply #838 on: June 01, 2009, 03:40:16 PM

*sorry, double post*
« Last Edit: June 01, 2009, 03:43:00 PM by Darniaq »
Trippy
Administrator
Posts: 23611


Reply #839 on: June 01, 2009, 04:01:13 PM

What CPU do you have and what CPUID is Real Temp reporting? And what is the delta from TJ Max?

CPU: Quad Q9550
Temp being reported: 23, 23, 18, 19 (all celcius)
Delta from TJ Max: 53, 53, 58, 57.
That looks wrong. What's are the Tjunction Max values Real Temp is showing? It should be 100Cish (it's 100C plus or minus some calibration number). It looks like it's set to 75Cish.
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