Random Greyhound Homicide

[Big Gulp]

There was ear kicking in Roadhouse?

Man, maybe I really should re-watch it now.

[edit] Oh, and I still say some of y'all are pussies. My experiment is open to prove it.  I could dangle $100 in front of you, a free hit, and a night of drinks, and you'd still hestitate. You'd either be cunts and not show up, or try to talk your way out of it. The only people who would smack me are the people who smack people.

If it's $100 per hit can I just beat you like a rented mule and retire?

[Signe]

Email me your new address.  I will send you a cat.

[Cyrrex]

I'm sure that when Schild talked about groceries that he did not mean we should be sending him kitties.  I think.

[schild]

I can't have a cat int he apartment. Would have to pay a pet fee. Would rather use the pet fee money on GROCERIES. Also, do not send a cat for the donation pool, thx.

[MrHat]

I can't have a cat int he apartment. Would have to pay a pet fee. Would rather use the pet fee money on GROCERIES. Also, do not send a cat for the donation pool, thx.

I think she meant for 

[stray]

$100 per hit per person. If you want to beat me, then that would be it's own reward.

And some groceries, Costco.

Costco what? You need a membership or something? Can't help ya bud. You should be supporting local businesses anyways. You're in Austin now. 

[schild]

I have a membership, but Costco is best bang for the buck.

Also, Austin does a lot of things right. Really. But supermarkets? They suck ass at supermarkets.

[Oban]

Email me your new address.  I will send you a cat.

Damnit, now I am hungry for Chinese food.

[HaemishM]

This isn't even an issue of being a tough guy. This is an issue of what is right and wrong. Somewhere along the line, we got the bullshit idea that it was alright to stand by and let other people get hurt or hurt themselves. People are a lot more concerned themselves rather then standing up for what is right.

 So when we hear about people sitting outside of a bus while some piece of shit mutilates some innocent kid, assholes like miasma can justify it cause they are pretty sure they would have done the same thing  rather than dispense some good ol' vigilante justice, just like that whole bus full of pussies didn't have the balls to do.

When we hear about someone taking matter into their own hands, or hear that some people may feel that they themselves would be incapable of letting something like this happen while they are around, the weak and frail would rather talk shit then deal with the fact that they are too afraid to do the right thing.

I can be totally honest, I would be terrified to be in that situation, and I would fight it, but i would do something and I would do it cause it is right and cause it is obvious we can't count on anyone else to take care of business.

At the end of the day, that kid had to go home to his mom like that, killed while he slept and dismembered, and no one did anything to stop it. You have to ask yourself, what the fuck was up with that crazy bastard, but more over, what the fuck is up with society when we let pussies like this parade this kids head around and not have to pay for it.

Some people are more capable then others, and the less capable will always make up some excuse as to why being less capable, less willing and less brave, is right.

Thank you Internet Tough Guy, for fagging up this thread. Quoted for posterity's sake.

[tazelbain]

[Margalis]

It's kind of sad that in every thread like this there is a 100% chance of at least one internet tough guy saying that they totally would have crane-kicked the guy into oblivion and saved the day.

Now who's going to step up and say that the passengers were all liberal arts pussies and that this incident is evidence that men have been castrated by the gay and feminist agendas? Why the need to blame the passengers instead of, you know, the guy who lopped a head off?

I've done a few things in my day to go out of my way to be helpful - stopped a bus as it was pulling away from a blind guy, gave a woman my T pass when she was separated from her kids and her card wasn't working, helped a girl who had some sort of medical episode in a computer lab. In all these cases everyone else just stood around doing nothing. I figure that puts me in the top 5% of good samaritan types, but a six-foot dude with a huge knife hacking up a body in an enclosed space? Not fucking with that.

[TheWalrus]

Apparently you're a pussy then.

[Tale]

I would have stolen some sleeping pills from the man two seats away, broken a piece of metal tubing off the seat in front of me, opened a convenient hatch in the floor to find grease for inside the tube, stolen a pen from the girl in the next seat, dipped the pen in crushed sleeping pills, placed the pen inside the tube and used my instant Macgyver blowpipe to tranquilise the guy through the throat. Fuck you all.

[stray]

It's kind of sad that in every thread like this there is a 100% chance of at least one internet tough guy saying that they totally would have crane-kicked the guy into oblivion and saved the day.

No, what's kind of sad is when people aren't able to simply voice their thoughts without someone exaggerating about it (crane kick? Roadhouse? saying we're only blaming the passengers and not the culprit, etc.) and throwing out tired old clichés about "internet personas", claiming to know what everyone's "real life" is like. It always amazes too how people start easily agreeing with the hyperbole, how it colors the perception, and how people start doing a circle jerk around the same bullshit points...As if it was actually something that the original person said. And you guys think we're (me and Hammer) the ones with the egos? That deserves a laugh. You wallow in your own bullshit, and barely listen to people.

No one necessarily even said they'd "save the day" either (yet another exaggeration) -- they/we said we'd try. It has nothing to do with being tough. I said it before, and I'll it again, it's just about what a person is comfortable with (and to be completely honest: Want to know what I'm comfortable with? I mentioned a "meat cleaver to wrist" story here earlier. Well, it wasn't just one slam. It was three. And here's the kicker: I did it to myself. On purpose.).

Anyhow -- it's like this on every damn message board, I guess -- about any subject. A guy could be a jet pilot posting on a flight sim site, but people can't simply take his word for it. They have to give him shit. A woman is never a woman without pics. No one has "abs". No one is tall. We're all just just malnourished geeks -- and that's a fucking shame. You guys actually believe the stereotype.

Apparently you're a pussy then.

Yup. Just by hearing some of you talk here, observing your general/internet passive-aggressive tendencies, and your tendency to blow the idea of "fighting" out of proportion as if no one can ever mention it ever, I can tell that many of you probably have never laid a hand on someone. The only kind of "violence" you're capable of is pointless, cantankerous, geek rage. Damn straight, you're pussies. Textbook. And the only reason I care to bring it up is to say you're disqualified about talking about what someone would or wouldn't do in this Greyhound situation. You are people who could barely even handle a small altercation -- yet, all of the sudden you know what everyone else is capable of doing in a situation like that? Fuck you....  

[Paelos]

Sorry, I'd rather be a pussy than a guy paying people to punch me in the face.

If we're following that line of logic.

[Hawkbit]

My first reaction to this story was "Why the fuck didn't anyone stop him?"  Then the details begin to fill in and I realize I likely wouldn't have tried to intervene unless the situation was much different.  There's simply too many what-ifs. 

If I had my wife or daughter with me on the trip, their safety would come first, no matter who is in trouble.  Especially with my daughter, who is only 3 years old.  I can't trust that someone else would protect her if things went south and I was hurt while trying to save the guy. 

Not to mention that if nobody else was going to help rush the guy, there's no way in hell I'd do anything.  You gotta figure that even going in with a few people, whoever goes in first is going to take a couple stabs more than likely.  They were likely in the middle of nowhere when the guy attacked...  a few stab wounds in the wrong spot would kill by bleedout regardless. 

There's simply too many factors involved here for a person to say they'd have kicked the guy's ass, or ran for the hills, or whatever.  Most of us won't know how we'd react in those situation because we haven't been faced with crisis situations before.  Hopefully, none of us will ever need to. 

The whole thing is just sad. 

Consider, for a moment, if the same exact situation had happened on an airplane. 

[Tale]

A guy could be a jet pilot posting on a flight sim site, but people can't simply take his word for it. They have to give him shit. A woman is never a woman without pics. No one has "abs". No one is tall. We're all just just malnourished geeks -- and that's a fucking shame. You guys actually believe the stereotype.

I have been sitting here drinking a bottle of water and eating to sustain me over the next three hours on a bicycle ride including some major hills, as fast as I can. Yesterday I did two hours. I have a giant fucking wound on my right knee from a crash last Wednesday, and it hurts. My bike is just a steel touring bike, not some fancy carbon help-you-up-the-hills job. I am about to push my heart and lungs and limbs to the limit. The weather is bad and cold. But I've crossed continents like this before. I love it.

Go tone your abs in your airconditioned gym. You'll be so tough.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

My first reaction to this story was "Why the fuck didn't anyone stop him?"  Then the details begin to fill in and I realize I likely wouldn't have tried to intervene unless the situation was much different.  There's simply too many what-ifs. 

If I had my wife or daughter with me on the trip, their safety would come first, no matter who is in trouble.  Especially with my daughter, who is only 3 years old.  I can't trust that someone else would protect her if things went south and I was hurt while trying to save the guy. 

Not to mention that if nobody else was going to help rush the guy, there's no way in hell I'd do anything.  You gotta figure that even going in with a few people, whoever goes in first is going to take a couple stabs more than likely.  They were likely in the middle of nowhere when the guy attacked...  a few stab wounds in the wrong spot would kill by bleedout regardless. 

There's simply too many factors involved here for a person to say they'd have kicked the guy's ass, or ran for the hills, or whatever.  Most of us won't know how we'd react in those situation because we haven't been faced with crisis situations before.  Hopefully, none of us will ever need to. 

The whole thing is just sad. 

Consider, for a moment, if the same exact situation had happened on an airplane. 

This is exactly why I wasn't descriptive in what I would do or think about doing. i Simply don't know, but I know that I would be incredibly uncomfortable with not doing anything. I am not saying I would take him on single handedly, or even force people into helping. I am saying i would be willing to help in any way possible up to and including possibly putting myself into danger, (in the case I could have actually saved the kid)   

Margalis: Quit being a jerk. About this AND about accepting my friends request on XBL. You owe me some SF matches tough guy.

Stray: I agree with you on a lot of what you say, I think it is really weird that most people here, or on the interwebs in general couldn't believe that someone would want to help someone out or assist in stopping some maniac from doing something awful. Also I don't remember talking about kicking or punching or anything. sheesh...

On a separate note. I have a 6 pack, huge muscles, know kung fu, boxing, and knife fighting and have killed no less than 6 men in hand to hand combat. also I beat up a cop, a boxer, a black guy, a guy with a bat/gun/knife/bottle/tazer/stick/pole/sword/fork/red hot poker. I also teach a kickboxing ninja robot combat class at la fitness.     

[lamaros]

No, what's kind of sad is when people...

people read two lines of a story and then imagine it as some fantasy-land for personal expression instead of thinking about it as an actual event.

You continually post in this forum without thinking, and then respond to criticism by projecting your shallow reality upon others and the world. Learn at least some patience and self-reflection, and try to entertain, if only for a miniute, the positions put forward by others.

A guy could be a jet pilot posting on a flight sim site, but people can't simply take his word for it. They have to give him shit. A woman is never a woman without pics. No one has "abs". No one is tall. We're all just just malnourished geeks -- and that's a fucking shame. You guys actually believe the stereotype.

You post on a forum that is frequented by people with an interest in videogames, but these people come from different parts of the world, have widely varying jobs and interests, and widely varying opinions. Yet you somehow seem to think that when all these people disagree with you it's because there is some "circle-jerk" going on, and not because you are the one cut off from the 'reality' in which all these people live. You're presenting a whole group of people who refuse to believe you as one-dimensional stereotypes just to counter the fact that they think you're acting like a dickhead; a notion you are not prepared to entertain.

Grow up. And do it in silence.

[TheWalrus]

Stray you're an idiot. I don't know where this happened in your life, but I'm sorry. You're fucking stupid. And that has nothing to do with what you think we would do on the bus or what you would do. You're just an idiot.

[Margalis]

Margalis: Quit being a jerk. About this AND about accepting my friends request on XBL. You owe me some SF matches tough guy.

I haven't hooked up my XBox in about two years, you're out of luck there. I'll play on HD:Remix when it comes out though.

Stray: I agree with you on a lot of what you say, I think it is really weird that most people here, or on the interwebs in general couldn't believe that someone would want to help someone out or assist in stopping some maniac from doing something awful. Also I don't remember talking about kicking or punching or anything. sheesh...

It's not a matter of wanting to help, it's a matter of saying you *would* help and castigating the people who didn't, without knowing anything about the situation and what your own reaction would be while getting all of the facts wrong. Unless you've done something similar in the past I can't believe that you would jump right in and help, no matter how much you protest. It's too easy for any guy on the internet to say they'd spring into action when the reality is that 99% of people wouldn't.

I'd like to think I'd help and in that situation I'd probably think about how I could help but I'm not going to claim that I would definitely do something, or call the people who didn't do something pussies. For all we know the people sitting closest were 80 year old grandmas. Think about how much confusion there is there, by the time you know what the fuck is even happening and can push past people the dude is dead as a doornail.

I mean you have to laugh at this:

Yup. Just by hearing some of you talk here, observing your general/internet passive-aggressive tendencies, and your tendency to blow the idea of "fighting" out of proportion as if no one can ever mention it ever, I can tell that many of you probably have never laid a hand on someone. The only kind of "violence" you're capable of is pointless, cantankerous, geek rage. Damn straight, you're pussies. Textbook. And the only reason I care to bring it up is to say you're disqualified about talking about what someone would or wouldn't do in this Greyhound situation. You are people who could barely even handle a small altercation -- yet, all of the sudden you know what everyone else is capable of doing in a situation like that?

We aren't talking about "fighting" or hitting yourself in the wrist with a meat cleaver (the fuck?). It's hard to blow a guy with a knife sawing off another guy's head out of proportion. I'm down for fighting, but fighting is pretty different from engaging a psycho with a knife who is perfectly willing to kill you. Earlier he said:

If you get in enough scrapes, you eventually realize how it isn't that big of a deal. Anyone who is used to smacking people and getting smacked would have had no qualms to try and stop that guy.

Again I've been in "scrapes" like bar fights and such -- that's very different from a guy getting his head sawed off. That's not a fight or a scrape or someone getting "smacked around."

Yeah, it's a shame that someone didn't save the day, but realistically the outcome of one dead is probably the best outcome possible given the circumstances. And calling everyone on that bus pussies for not getting themselves killed to stop the further defiling of a corpse is weak, as is implying that manly Americans would somehow have acted differently.

Edit: I once killed a man.

Edit2: And as I implied above I'm really tired of people using every tragedy as a way to puff themselves up while denigrating those around them, using it to grind whatever ideological axe they have. Just once can I read about some terrible incident without being bombarded by people claiming that the problem is Canadians or Muslims or estrogen in the water or liberal arts education or political correctness or not enough John Wayne movies or whatever the fuck?

When the Virginia Tech shooter killed a bunch of students right-wing pundits were blaming the English curriculum and claiming that had they been there they would have used their laptops to deflect the bullets like fucking Wonder Woman and her magic bracelets. I'm just tired of it.

[Abagadro]

I've broken up fights even when I was outnumbered, but comparing this situation to "scrapes" is retarded.  The poor dude was a goner before anyone probably even realized what was happening. If it came down to protecting a body from post-mortem mutilation and risking (even a low level of risk) not going home to my kid, I'd be an idiot to pick the former.  If it is realistically protecting an innocent from harm, I'd like to think I might act differently, but who knows. Reactions are often not rational and can be very base "fight or flight" responses with it being a coin flip as to which surge of adrenaline wins out.  Post hoc picking apart of these people's actions is not only pointless, it's insulting to people who have been traumatized. You should frankly be ashamed of yourself.

[stray]

You post on a forum that is frequented by people with an interest in videogames, but these people come from different parts of the world, have widely varying jobs and interests, and widely varying opinions. Yet you somehow seem to think that when all these people disagree with you it's because there is some "circle-jerk" going on, and not because you are the one cut off from the 'reality' in which all these people live. You're presenting a whole group of people who refuse to believe you as one-dimensional stereotypes just to counter the fact that they think you're acting like a dickhead; a notion you are not prepared to entertain.

Grow up. And do it in silence.

Heh. I never said it was a circle jerk because of people "disagreeing" with me. Trying to accuse me of that is yet another contribution to that little circle jerk some people are having. Truly ironic. You're just projecting more bullshit on to me. Great.

Listen: I give two fucks whether you agree with me or not. That's hardly the issue.

What I don't like is being told what I am or what I'm not -- I plainly gave my thoughts on the subject already, thank you very much -- you either agree with that or you don't. But don't disagree to the point where you have to exaggerate, and put words in my mouth. Don't bother with trying to discredit me, because it's a fucking fool's game. Don't take it to some level where it becomes "who can make the funnier the 'tough guy' joke", or "who can make the more clever movie references" (crane kicks, roadhouse, etc), and in your case, "lets see how shallow and intolerable I can portray Stray, by making people think he's pissed simply because they disagree with him". Because if you do that, I will take the whole "real life" angle to it's final conclusion -- and take a big dump on the thread in the process.

Another thing: I am not "presenting a whole group" as anything. They already presented themselves exactly as they wanted to be seen. As people who would act the same as the real passengers on that bus. I didn't attack them about it, I didn't exaggerate about it -- not at first at least. I simply chimed in and offered my take on the matter, a take that had nothing to do with anyone except me -- and all of the sudden, people have to get all pissy and personal about it. As if my difference in opinion is some assault to their ego. "How dare he think he wouldn't run like the rest of us!"

My only mistake is assuming that there were enough people at this site who wouldn't scoff at the idea of fighting back...Y'know, just enough where the thread wouldn't get completely drowned out by pussies -- and their bullshit.

My bad.  


Walrus: Of course, I'm stupid. I already said that... like 3 pages ago.

[Margalis]

Edit: Nevermind, once a thread has been Stray'd that's it.

[Kitsune]

I was the scrawny, fucked-up kid when I was little, the very image of the nerd stereotype.  I took shit constantly from the other kids.  This in turn made me a scrawny, fucked-up kid sitting on a powder keg of rage; at the first sign of a fight brewing I'd go right for it.  My hands are dotted with scars from ill-advised punches to people in braces.  After I punched through a plate glass window to get at the person on the other side (note the 'ill-advised' bit up there) and sliced open my thumb, the school headmaster had to drive me to my doctor to get sewed back up.  The doctor mentioned, as he was doing that, "See, that's why they don't let kids have guns.  If you'd had a gun, you'd've gone shooting."  He was quite right, too.  This was a good five years before Columbine's shooting, but I would've started the trend early if I'd had a pistol in my backpack; I was way over the edge and knew it.

The incident made me rethink a lot of things, and I went through a lot of effort to stop trying to bury anger, as it evidently wasn't working well.  My past left a clear mark on me though; I'm prone to being on edge and can literally jump at sudden, loud noises.  A couple years ago, I was dropping by an ATM in the middle of the night, and heard a slap-slap-slap of running feet on pavement.  My hand was in my pocket, out with a fistful of keys poking between my fingers, and I was looking for my would-be mugger before I realized that the sound was that of the bank's flag popping in a stiff breeze.  My fight/flight dial is very clearly turned in the 'fight' direction.  

Despite that, though, I can't honestly say what I would do in the suddenness of the moment if faced with unexpected violence between two strangers.  If someone ran up and started trying to bash in a friend's face, yeah, I'd jump them.  But seeing one stranger beat on another stranger?  Dunno.  The problem of not knowing why they were fighting, or who started it, would really pose a problem for my deciding which side to restrain.  If it wasn't a fight but just a beating, one guy down and defenseless while the other one was kicking him in the head, I'd be much more inclined to try to step in with such a one-sided scenario.  Stray's right, a fistfight isn't a big deal in the grand scheme of things, but they're still not something to be sought out willy-nilly; one 'oops' can lead to someone winding up dead in the worst case, or at least needing medical attention, with the police being very curious on the matter.

One guy much better armed than me killing people?  Fuck no, unless it looks like he's liable to be coming for me or someone I care about.  I'll duck and cover and be comfortable with my decision rather than make a suicide charge for glory and dining in hell.  Unless some golden opening presents itself, and for some reason the crazy murderers never seem to trip or drop their weapons.

[WindupAtheist]

I shot a man in Reno, just to watch him die.

[lamaros]

CBF.

[Ironwood]

On a separate note. I have a 6 pack, huge muscles, know kung fu, boxing, and knife fighting and have killed no less than 6 men in hand to hand combat. also I beat up a cop, a boxer, a black guy, a guy with a bat/gun/knife/bottle/tazer/stick/pole/sword/fork/red hot poker. I also teach a kickboxing ninja robot combat class at la fitness.     

I think possibly you're forgetting that one of the first things you did on joining us here was post a RL pic of yourself.

[Oban]

lawl.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/08/05/greyhound-rage-ad.html?ref=rss

[IainC]

A surprisingly large number said they would give them their wallets even if it was just a knife. The common explanation being that even with just a knife the attacker could get in a lucky slash/stab and it would be all over for the vicitim.

I'm far from a martial artist, but if someone was robbing me and had a knife I'd probably be willing to give it a go.  A gun?  You betcha, take my shit.

I've been mugged twice (in the same week as it happened) by knife wielding attackers. It doesn't happen like in Crocodile Dundee where a guy steps out. waves a knife at you and says 'give me your money!' let me tell you. What actually happens is that you're walking along minding your own business when suddenly there's searing pain from a non-critical part of your body, you look down, realise you're pissing blood out of somewhere and the two blokes who came up out of nowhere are bundling you to the floor and threatening to carve you up some more. Then they take your wallet from you and fuck off. The whole thing takes about 8 seconds and the chances of you pulling your shit together to retaliate is approximately nil. I was a 2nd Dan in Aikido and there was no question about me being able to resist effectively. I could take swordsmen down while unarmed but bad guys don't square off all nice and fair like.

[Big Gulp]

I've been mugged twice (in the same week as it happened) by knife wielding attackers. It doesn't happen like in Crocodile Dundee where a guy steps out. waves a knife at you and says 'give me your money!' let me tell you. What actually happens is that you're walking along minding your own business when suddenly there's searing pain from a non-critical part of your body, you look down, realise you're pissing blood out of somewhere and the two blokes who came up out of nowhere are bundling you to the floor and threatening to carve you up some more. Then they take your wallet from you and fuck off. The whole thing takes about 8 seconds and the chances of you pulling your shit together to retaliate is approximately nil. I was a 2nd Dan in Aikido and there was no question about me being able to resist effectively. I could take swordsmen down while unarmed but bad guys don't square off all nice and fair like.

CCW here.  In the hypothetical event of a knife robbery or even a homicidal bus stabber I can guarantee you that someone is getting shot.

ETA:  I didn't mean to say that I wouldn't have gotten robbed.  They may very well have gotten my wallet after sucker stabbing me.  As they're leaving, though?  Oh yeah, someone's getting shot.

[Kitsune]

If you get jumped from behind and stuck with a knife, the only thing between your attackers and possession of your gun is how hard to notice your holster is.  The someone who gets shot could easily be you, if they swipe your gun along with the wallet.

That reminds me of a hilarious advertising video for a pistol that fires small shotgun shells, named the judge.  Part of the thing was claiming anti-carjacker defense, and showed a scenario of some guy coming up to the passenger window, banging on it, and yelling, "Get out of the car, I have a gun!"  They then showed the driver unloading the pistol into a silhouette target set outside the passenger window.  The gun did do a great job of ripping up the target, no question, but they didn't explain the pistol's 'teleport into your hand before the guy holding a gun on you can pull the trigger' feature.  A feature that the pistol clearly possessed, as obviously the gun maker wouldn't think something silly like the driver would have time to reach into the glove box, get his pistol, aim, cock, and fire in less time than the would-be assailant could shoot the driver.

Life rewards the party with the initiative.  It's just the way of things.  The lion who sneaks up on the zebra, the guy who already has his pistol drawn before stepping out of the alley, they've already won.  Unless you go through life with a cocked shotgun in your hands 24-7, anyone who comes at you with a weapon prepared has a huge advantage.  Thus the whole '21 foot rule' taught to police.  Being armed is useless if you're denied the time necessary to ready your weapon.

[stray]

Edit: Nevermind, once a thread has been Stray'd that's it.

Don't worry though, I'll be out in a sec.

IanC: That's intense! If anyone is built for disarming, it's serious Aikido students (and it's the only reason I'm talking the way I do. My teacher was one) -- but it's a damn shame you got bum rushed out of the blue like that. I haven't been in a robbery situation with a knife myself -- but that seems highly irregular. Not the rule. Robbers aren't usually violent -- they just want your money - and I'm sure you were taught to give them your wallet -- where you can make your move on the exchange.

Anyhow, I've had one incident where a knife was only pulled on me for a fight, and another where it was some pissed off acquaintance who did something like that (with a fishing knife). I immediately ran in the second instance, and then...beat his ass later. Not important though. Point is, a typical face off is where skills like yours work -- and I imagine, it'd be a similar situation as this greyhound one. You'd be a little more prepared. Unlike the robbery.

[lamaros]

No one cares about your irrelevent fucking stories.

[Ironwood]

Personally, when I get regularly attacked in the streets, I just use my concealed Skull gun and it sorts things.  I have a special pass from the government to carry it though;  it also helps me get through the metal detectors at airports since my bones are laced with Adamantium.


It's this thread that needs shot.  You fucking people.