WAR RvR Video from E3.

[Murgos]

Honestly, no, I never really had any significant problems with people blocking my path that I can recall in my many years of playing EQ.

This.

I suspect some people here were playing on the bizarro-world evil server, widely known to be populated almost exclusively by pantomine villians and team rocket.

You guys do remember that every casting class had a shrink spell they could apply to people blocking the way, yes?  Trust me, that spell didn't exist at launch.  There was a specific area of Sol b that an ogre or troll could stand in front of and block off access for entire raids going down to kill naggy, or people trying to run to the zone line.

[Koyasha]

As long as I played, only a few classes (Beastlords and Shamans if I remember right) had the Shrink spell, although shrink potions became commonplace, and shrink items were somewhat rarer but still reasonably common.  And none of these could be applied to a person outside your group, only to yourself or your groupmates.

Regardless, even in the Pre-Kunark era, I never had this problem.  And as noted, grief potential is extremely small if minor steps are taken to make sure it doesn't exist.  If a game doesn't have collision detection because of griefing, then someone's being incompetent in the design.

[HaemishM]

If a game doesn't have collision detection because of griefing, then someone's being incompetent in the design.

Ahem. We're talking about MMOG's.

[Count Nerfedalot]

um, didn't they take all collision detection out of EQ on the PvE worlds pretty early on?

And collision detection is only a part of the important stuff.  Rational LoS rules and terrain affects on movement and combat other than passable/impassable are also critical.  And other physics considerations that need to be implemented along with collision dectection are pushing/knockback and taking increased damage and/or chance of being hit if you choose to sacrifice mobility for holding ground.

Another important mechanic to include is some way of having being at the keyboard trump being AFK.  In other words, even a gnome should be able to push past an oger if the oger is AFK.

AC's biggest flaw in their implementation was that they cheaped out on the servers.  There was a LOT of rubberbanding and similar server (or client) playing catchup weirdness in AC, and the vast majority of it was due to inadequate server horsepower, NOT internet lag.  Sticky melee was a vital but lame crutch to try to make up for it.  Lots of people even quit because of the server lag.  I know I did, twice! 

[Ingmar]

Note that lack of collision detection can lead to griefing too. (See: badge vendor in Sunwell Isle + PVP flagged taurens on kodos)

[Trippy]

um, didn't they take all collision detection out of EQ on the PvE worlds pretty early on?

No.

[Triforcer]

Mark Jacobs confirms two server types still on for launch:

http://vnboards.ign.com/warhammer_online_age_of_reckoning_general_board/b22997/107975096/p8

Elitists who view everything as zero-sum are in an uproar! 

[Lakov_Sanite]

Mark Jacobs confirms two server types still on for launch:

http://vnboards.ign.com/warhammer_online_age_of_reckoning_general_board/b22997/107975096/p8

Elitists who view everything as zero-sum are in an uproar! 

So...it's wow?

Don't get me wrong that's not an insult but that's essentially what this is isn't it?

Server A has: No pvp in newbie zones or in regular levelling zones but pvp in specific RVR designated zones.

Server B has: No pvp in newbie zones but you can PVP everywhere else.

PvP only ever between the two realms.  Now I'm a huge proponent of wow, as mcdonalds as it is they do make a fun diku but with WAR, which I really want to play I was hoping for a fresh alternative in playstyle, something different, exciting. As it stands I keep thinking we're all just gonna get burger king out of this deal.

[Merusk]

um, didn't they take all collision detection out of EQ on the PvE worlds pretty early on?

No.

Ogres in SolB entryway killing everyone when a train hits.  Ahh, memories.

[cevik]

Mark Jacobs confirms two server types still on for launch:

http://vnboards.ign.com/warhammer_online_age_of_reckoning_general_board/b22997/107975096/p8

Elitists who view everything as zero-sum are in an uproar! 

So...it's wow?

I thought we had long since established that fact.

[Slayerik]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[eldaec]

Mark Jacobs confirms two server types still on for launch:

http://vnboards.ign.com/warhammer_online_age_of_reckoning_general_board/b22997/107975096/p8

Elitists who view everything as zero-sum are in an uproar! 

So...it's wow?

I thought we had long since established that fact.

To be fair early interpretations of what had been said suggested that both realms shared PvE areas in which they can't attack each other.

In that thread Mark confirms that Orcs can't wander through Dwarf PvE areas or vice versa in the core ruleset. Because that would be stupid. The 'open rvr' server just doesn't have PvE areas according to the thread linked.

[Lakov_Sanite]

So the realms are 'completely' seperate a la daoc? I'm not sure sure it's a good idea to 'halve' your world like that, besides being very non immersive from a design standpoint it just makes you have to double you content.  referenceing wow.....again, I have to say there's a lot of crossover content between alliance and horse, to me that's a good thing, you feel like you're part of a real world. If war is saying it will be more like doac in that the realms will be these seperate entites where you only ever crossover in border realms well that's a big fat 'meh'

[Nebu]

So the realms are 'completely' seperate a la daoc? I'm not sure sure it's a good idea to 'halve' your world like that, besides being very non immersive from a design standpoint it just makes you have to double you content.  referenceing wow.....again, I have to say there's a lot of crossover content between alliance and horse, to me that's a good thing, you feel like you're part of a real world. If war is saying it will be more like doac in that the realms will be these seperate entites where you only ever crossover in border realms well that's a big fat 'meh'

More content = more replay value and more expansion potential.  If you think of the realms as separate gated communities, I think it makes for a more interesting gameplay option.  This is especially the case on open pvp servers as invading enemy territory now creates potential for extra dynamics (capital city seige, etc.)

[cevik]

More content = more replay value and more expansion potential.  If you think of the realms as separate gated communities, I think it makes for a more interesting gameplay option.  This is especially the case on open pvp servers as invading enemy territory now creates potential for extra dynamics (capital city seige, etc.)

Yeah but it also means that one of the realms will be "finished" and the other not so much.

At least that's the lesson Hibernia taught me about MMOGs.

[Lakov_Sanite]

So the realms are 'completely' seperate a la daoc? I'm not sure sure it's a good idea to 'halve' your world like that, besides being very non immersive from a design standpoint it just makes you have to double you content.  referenceing wow.....again, I have to say there's a lot of crossover content between alliance and horse, to me that's a good thing, you feel like you're part of a real world. If war is saying it will be more like doac in that the realms will be these seperate entites where you only ever crossover in border realms well that's a big fat 'meh'

More content = more replay value and more expansion potential.  If you think of the realms as separate gated communities, I think it makes for a more interesting gameplay option.  This is especially the case on open pvp servers as invading enemy territory now creates potential for extra dynamics (capital city seige, etc.)

You're right, on paper. The thing is we all should know by now how these things work. Rather than getting two realms that could be games in and of themselves  you will get two 2/3 gameplay experiences. I prefer this method myself, on paper but having seen it executed time and again I know it's only going to lead to half-assedness(yay new word) and more mediocre realms than were they to share the same world.

One think wow, heck even old school eq did 'right' was making it all one world. I remember those dashes through ironforge, heading into the tram and fighting alliance. I remember taking my dark elf to rivervale(sp?) the halfling town and cackling as i blew the furry footed bastards to hell. Just two small examples but to me if it's gonna be a pvp game, you oppenents need to be more than just 'those guys we see when we enter the danger zone'

[Fraeg]

So the realms are 'completely' seperate a la daoc? I'm not sure sure it's a good idea to 'halve' your world like that, besides being very non immersive from a design standpoint it just makes you have to double you content.  referenceing wow.....again, I have to say there's a lot of crossover content between alliance and horse, to me that's a good thing, you feel like you're part of a real world. If war is saying it will be more like doac in that the realms will be these seperate entites where you only ever crossover in border realms well that's a big fat 'meh'

at work so can't follow link blah blah blah

so:

pve server = you can't wander into some order zones if you are destro a la Daoc
pvp server =  you can go anywhere 'cept the lowbie starter zones which is more or less WoW?

again i can't follow the thread, but are you positive they are saying the realms are kept apart like in Daoc?

[Mrbloodworth]

So the realms are 'completely' seperate a la daoc? I'm not sure sure it's a good idea to 'halve' your world like that, besides being very non immersive from a design standpoint it just makes you have to double you content.  referenceing wow.....again, I have to say there's a lot of crossover content between alliance and horse, to me that's a good thing, you feel like you're part of a real world. If war is saying it will be more like doac in that the realms will be these seperate entites where you only ever crossover in border realms well that's a big fat 'meh'

at work so can't follow link blah blah blah

so:

pve server = you can't wander into some order zones if you are destro a la Daoc
pvp server =  you can go anywhere 'cept the lowbie starter zones which is more or less WoW?

again i can't follow the thread, but are you positive they are saying the realms are kept apart like in Daoc?

Don't forget sheep.

[Triforcer]

I believe that on Core servers, you can go to the other side's PvE area.  They can then initiate attacks on you, but you can't initiate a fight with them.  You can, of course, fight back if attacked.  No idea how heal flagging would work in that situation though.   

[eldaec]

I believe that on Core servers, you can go to the other side's PvE area.  They can then initiate attacks on you, but you can't initiate a fight with them.  You can, of course, fight back if attacked.  No idea how heal flagging would work in that situation though.   

Folks,

Hmm, not sure how/where these things get started but nothing has changed since my State of the Game in November:

1) No FFA server at launch - Been really clear about this for a host of reasons over the last 9 months. If you want FFA servers, WAR isn't for you and we've always said that we will not have FFA servers. WAR is an RvR-centric game and the heart of RvR is, of course, realm versus realm and having realm pride is harder when the guy next to you could just as easily stab you in the back faster than the enemy.

2) Core Ruleset Servers - Limited number of separate areas for PvE leveling (where the races don't mix) + safe intro for lowbies but RvR with some limitations (Chicken rule and all that) everywhere else.

3) Open RvR Servers - No ganking of lowbies (sorry but killing truly low-level players isn't what WAR is about even with this ruleset) but RvR everywhere else that players are supposed to get to in the game (players always find a way to sneak in where we didn't plan on them finding a way into).

4) RP servers at launch but whether they will be CR or OR rulesets we are still talking about.

So, like I said, nothing has changed since November.

We are still working on some of the details but as of now, nothing has changed and we still plan on having servers that cater to both a consensual RvR crowd and a non-consensual RvR crowd.

Mark

That wording isn't as clear as Mark says it is, but what I take from it is that if you can see an Orc, you can kill it. This is most satisfactory.



As for the point others made about 'wasting content'. Remember that nothing stops you reusing copies of the enemy noob area as a higher level instance.

[Fordel]

The One world of EQ or WoW works great for a PvE game, but it just cocks up the PvP with all the flagging shenanigans and shit. The amazing PvP experience of having my level 12 quest NPC's slaughtered by 70s 


One of the greatest strengths of DaoC was the clear and absolute division of PvE and PvP.


I have no idea what the shit they are doing with WAR. Flip a coin, come back in a week.

[Drugstore Space Cowboy]

Or had an invisible griefer blocking the only entrance to the building you were in?

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for collision detection. But to suggest that exploiting isn't often a problem is erroneous.

Age of Conan solved this very quickly after release. They made it so that when you crouched and moved your collision detection for other players was turned off. You couldn't fight like that and you moved really slowly but it stopped the cockblockers on mammoth mounts jamming up alleys and bridges.

Really, it's such an easy thing to fix and yet still have collision detection working for most of the time.

The story I always heard as to why so few games did collision detection wasn't the exploits but the cpu usage on the servers and the accuracy of fast code. Anyone who's got stuck on a station while seeing their ship 100yards from the nearest outcrop could attest to how inaccurate that code is.

It's not inaccurate, it's just simplified. They made stations' collision signatures just a big blob of spheres so people wouldn't get stuck on them and the server wouldn't have to deal with a more detailed model. Collision detection for stationary objects isn't hard to do at all (think of terrain and buildings in standard games), but the big bubble model cuts down on harmful bugs (think of getting stuck in the geometry in a standard game).

[rk47]

If there were no collision detection the spartans would've been dead meat again the almighty zerg. it made terrain doubly important and made the number of bodies as a sort of double edged sword.

[Register]

The One world of EQ or WoW works great for a PvE game, but it just cocks up the PvP with all the flagging shenanigans and shit. The amazing PvP experience of having my level 12 quest NPC's slaughtered by 70s 

One of the greatest strengths of DaoC was the clear and absolute division of PvE and PvP.

I have no idea what the shit they are doing with WAR. Flip a coin, come back in a week.

As I recalled, from the launch of Darkness Fall to the launch of TOA, the best xp and money grinding zone by far is Darkness Fall... which happens to be a PVP zone with access linked to all 3 realms, openable by a majority in keeps.

You can still op out by avoiding DF, but you really lose out in terms of the heaps of XP and money that could be made in there. In WOW, you can opt out of PVP with much lesser impact on your pve progression via the flag/unflag system on a PVE server - I believe the most common instance of quest npc ganking would be the Barrens by far; in my years of playing Wow I hardly encounter quest NPC being ganked by the other faction outside of the Barrens. This also happens mostly on PVE servers in my experience.

I liked DAOC for the realm artifact sieges, the occupation of keeps and the persistent nature of pvp in the frontiers - that to me is the greatest thing about DAOC. Early DAOC has largely homogenous gears, so the only method to improve your character was through Realm Abilities granted through PVP... and PVP happens only in the frontiers or in DF.  The conflict/contest out there is pretty much persistent - unlike the scant activity I see around most world PVP objectives in WOW now. I still recall with fondness how the call will go out in the realm once news of the other realm moving in on an artifact spreads. Guilds worked with guilds to siege or defeat sieges, and there is a far stronger sense of belonging to a realm than the hollow Ally/Horde faction tags in Wow.

One of the arguments for instancing is to negate one side being swamped by the other as a result of population imbalance... but DAOC deals with it by having 3 factions - on most servers the 2 weaker factions will band up against the strongest realm, and to me this is so much more interesting than artificial set numbers of players facing off in unchanging BG instances.

[Triforcer]

http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/38964

Summary:  WAR's "Realm" page will not only allow you to see PvP leaderboards, keep ownership, etc.-  it allows you to see other players' equipment.

...Lum is fighting a lonely battle here.  HIS FORMER COMPANY NO LESS!??!

[Fordel]

That's exactly the point, DF is a clearly marked PvP zone. After you enter through this demonic portal, you are free game. If you don't go through it, you are safe. The End. It's a hard line that you choose to cross, not some ambiguous gray overlap that you get through PvP flagging. The same with the frontiers. You enter the frontier, people can kill you. Don't enter, no one can kill you. No confusion, no cheese and always with consent.


While DF was certainly very good PvE return for it's time, it was by no means required or necessary. Which is why it worked as well as it did. Good enough that you'd want it for your own realm, not so good that you actually needed it.

[eldaec]

on most servers the 2 weaker factions will band up against the strongest realm,

Correct, and a good point usually ignored by most ranters on the subject of daoc population imbalances. (No, I'm not suggesting this fixed the problem entirely on the problem servers)

Having the wrong number of realms is the most often ignored example of a poor design choice in WAR inspired purely by a desire to not be like daoc. (it certainly can't have been inspired by the IP!)

[Fordel]

It was more like the two stronger realms would curb stomp the weak one when ever they got bored. I like the odd number of realms just for a pure clusterfuck effect in RvR, but it did little to 'fix' the weaker realm issue.

[WindupAtheist]

More content = more replay value and more expansion potential.

Amount of content is determined by money and time, not by the model used to divide it between factions.  Claiming that completely segregating it by faction increases replay value is a bit spurious.  You need your players to dive in and feel like there's lots of content, not play through what there is for their side and then think "Well I guess I could reroll..." once they get bored.

Anyway, I predict a whole lot of nothing special for this game.  It's going to be an unfinished unpolished WoW clone that can't compete with the original, it'll go nowhere, and (along with AoC) the first real post-WoW generation of MMOs will have been just another couple of insects beneath Blizzard's boots.

[Nebu]

Amount of content is determined by money and time, not by the model used to divide it between factions.  Claiming that completely segregating it by faction increases replay value is a bit spurious.  You need your players to dive in and feel like there's lots of content, not play through what there is for their side and then think "Well I guess I could reroll..." once they get bored.

DAoC kept me subscribed for over 5 years.  WoW for about 6 months.  You see everything in WoW on the first trip through and switching sides only gives you different paths around the same area.  In DAoC you see three different pve areas, different class builds, different group dynamics, and different social circles.  I think there's something to be said for having multiple gated realms.  Again, I realize that my tastes are niche, but I lasted a long time in DAoC and it wasn't my first MMO.

[Triforcer]

Straight from EA Singapore, we have:  September 23rd.

http://www.ea.com.sg/en-sg/games/pc/warhammer/warhammeronline_collectors/

A week after I go to Japan and the day after I start my new job there 

[Draegan]

I don't think this is NDA breaking, but I want to commend Mythic on that their BETA is the most efficient and most professionally run (external) MMO-Beta that I've ever participated in.  From organization and QA issues all the way to customer relations with the beta testers it's been top notch.

I just wanted to put that out there.

[Nebu]

Doesn't non-disclosure also include NOT disclosing that you're in a beta? 

[Jamiko]

Doesn't non-disclosure also include NOT disclosing that you're in a beta? 

The only permitted disclosures at this time are:
1) The fact that there is a Warhammer Online Beta Test currently underway.
2) The fact that you are a member of the Warhammer Online Beta Test.

[Nebu]

2) The fact that you are a member of the Warhammer Online Beta Test.

I stand corrected.