WAR RvR Video from E3.

[Rondaror]

Long time CC and stuns in DAoC where necessary because of the cast interrupt system, which made it impossible for casters to defend themselves.

In my opinion the more a game relies on CC, the more the game mechanics/systems suck and the less balanced a game is.

In principle CC should protect squishies and get them out of range. But this might be achieved through collision detection and PvP taunt, like WAR is approaching, just passive through group play. Lost tactical depth through missing long term CC, gets outweighed by these tactical features....however we have to see if these mechanics really work.

However WAR does have CC mechanics, but they are short (snares, knock backs, roots) and other combat avoiding abilities, like speed buffs.

[Mrbloodworth]

So, how about that video? eh? eh?

[slog]

So, how about that video? eh? eh?

Things that stood out to me:

1) The models seem kind of stiff.  Maybe they are supposed to me simulating Figures in combat? (like the Chess fight in Kara)

2) The exclamation point was distracting. 

3) I didn't get any kind of feel for the complexity of the systems behind the combat.  I hope it's not as simple as it looked.

[Fordel]

I've longed stopped trying to make any qualified judgments from Mythic's game play videos. They sucked in DaoC, they suck for WAR.


With that said, the animations and attacks are slow and stiff. If that is any indication of how they actually play out, I will be disappointed.

[Koyasha]

So, how about that video? eh? eh?

The video leaves me Not Impressed.  Doesn't look that great to me, I don't get much of a feel for the mechanics, and the combat looks...chaotic and, well, like someone said above, realistic - which is a bad thing to include in a gameplay video.  I'm not going to base my opinion of the game on this video, but it's certainly not doing anything to get me interested or excited.  In contrast, back when I saw Lineage II's videos I immediately wanted to play that game.  Hell, even today looking at those videos is exciting and makes me feel a twinge of 'I want to go back to L2'.

[HaemishM]

You are basically left with tank'n'heal. 

The problem isn't that tank'n'heal is all you are left with, the problem is that the implementation of tank'n'heal is FUCKING BORING. Melee combat by itself should not be boring, but MMOG's have reduced it to its most boring possible implementation ever. Having to add other bullshit for crowd control is a bandaid on what is essentially really boring mechanics for combat that is held over from text-only MUD mechanics.

[Count Nerfedalot]

... made me wonder if any MMO tried to modify movement speed depending on terrain type (road, mud, going uphill/downhill etc) and if any did, what was the outcome...

SWG slowed you down based on terrain slope - running up a hill slowed you down, a steep hill slowed you down a LOT.  But running around the side of the hill at a steady elevation slowed you not at all.  Unfortunately, I can't recall ever seeing any pvp anywhere other than in pancake-flat city areas, so I don't know if anyone ever used it to make a difference.  It sure as heck didn't seem to slow the closing rate of NPCs, but then NPCs generally cheat in most games anyway.

As for ranged vs melee, real world effects kept melee in the game until the age of muskets at least.  Arrows and such are much less useful beyond direct-fire range in woods for example.  And melee combat still isn't completely out of the picture as close quarters combat training still includes various non-firearm techinques, and probably always will. 

But why the heck modern and futuristic MMORPGs feel compelled to accomodate melee as a viable exclusive combat style on an artificially enforced equal footing with ranged weapons baffles me.  EVERYBODY in a modern army learns to use a ranged weapon.  And the same is true for most futuristic IPs, with the exception of Jedi and Dune.  That being a fencer or polearm specialist with no ability to even fire a ranged weapon should be a viable character class in a game with modern or futuristic weapons is just absurd.  But I guess it's a lazy designer's solution to coming up with more distinctive "character classes" combined with a well-intended but misguided attempt to deal with the repercussions of necessary design choices to limit the range and damage capabilities of modern weapons in a game setting.

Being one-shotted by a foe a mile away that you never even saw will never be fun.  But even if you lowered the damage levels (with personal shields or body armor or whatever) and limited the effective ranges to a couple hundred meters, wouldn't it be cool to have a game with ranged weapons that worked well enough that tactics and use of cover were more effective strategies than simply close and bashem like neanderthals?

[FatuousTwat]

... made me wonder if any MMO tried to modify movement speed depending on terrain type (road, mud, going uphill/downhill etc) and if any did, what was the outcome...

SWG slowed you down based on terrain slope - running up a hill slowed you down, a steep hill slowed you down a LOT.  But running around the side of the hill at a steady elevation slowed you not at all.

I'm pretty sure DAoC did the same thing. Can't be sure though, it's been a few years since I've played.

[Driakos]

Not sure about slopes/hills in DAoC, but turning slowed you down.

[Phred]

On second thought, the whole "without cc there's just people beating each other up and that's not tactical" thing is quite bunk. When you consider there's been couple thousand years worth of military tactics developed by now around exactly this very concept -- people beating each other up without magic ways to turn the enemy into sheep or slow them down or make them fall asleep until hit with a stick...

Real life has collision detection. Most pvp games don't.

[Trippy]

On second thought, the whole "without cc there's just people beating each other up and that's not tactical" thing is quite bunk. When you consider there's been couple thousand years worth of military tactics developed by now around exactly this very concept -- people beating each other up without magic ways to turn the enemy into sheep or slow them down or make them fall asleep until hit with a stick...

Real life has collision detection. Most pvp games don't.

That's not true. It's rare for a PvP game *not* to have collision detection. Even in the genre of MMORPGs that have PvP I'm not even sure that's true.

[slog]

On second thought, the whole "without cc there's just people beating each other up and that's not tactical" thing is quite bunk. When you consider there's been couple thousand years worth of military tactics developed by now around exactly this very concept -- people beating each other up without magic ways to turn the enemy into sheep or slow them down or make them fall asleep until hit with a stick...

Real life has collision detection. Most pvp games don't.

That's not true. It's rare for a PvP game *not* to have collision detection. Even in the genre of MMORPGs that have PvP I'm not even sure that's true.

What MMOs did you have in mind?

MMO PvP games I've played without Collision Detection:
Jumpgate
Shadowane
AC
Wish (just kidding)
DAOC (at least when I played)
WoW

MMO PvP games I've played with Collision Detection:
Planetside? (I dont' remember)

[K9]

One oversight in the whole melee vs ranged thing for me is, "why do spellcasters have to stand still to cast?" Melee need ways to close on Ranged, and currently ranged need ways to escape or survive melee. In all the games I've played casters have to stand still while a melee person charges them casting. Maybe it would be an idea to change this mechanic. I wouldn't mind it if it took 50% longer to cast, or cost some more energy or did slightly less damage, if I could be mobile while casting. Mobility is huge in PvP.

I'm agreed though that Stealth, Fears, Stuns and Banishes are bad mechanics. Although I'm fine with CC's and abilites that hinder, but don't completely exclude a player e.g. roots, snares, slows. I also think abilities which did stuff like teleport enemies to another spot (away from you) could be fun.

[slog]

CC is ok if you put long immunity timers on it.  For example, If I get CC'd for 2 seconds, I should be immune to all CC for the next 25.  The problems come in when you can chain CC a person.

[croaker69]

Not sure about slopes/hills in DAoC, but turning slowed you down.

I seem to remember some New Frontiers terrain that had slopes that were impassable going up and also marsh areas that had a snare effect.

[Trippy]

What MMOs did you have in mind?

MMO PvP games I've played without Collision Detection:
Jumpgate
Shadowane
AC
Wish (just kidding)
DAOC (at least when I played)
WoW

MMO PvP games I've played with Collision Detection:
Planetside? (I dont' remember)

MMOs that have it off the top of my head.

UO
EQ
CoH/CoV
Planetside does have it

I don't PvP much but I'm sure there are others.

[FatuousTwat]

EVE has collision detection!

[Lantyssa]

Wish (just kidding)

I'm pretty sure Wish had collision detection.  (It was so long ago though, I could be mistaken.)

[tmp]

Real life has collision detection. Most pvp games don't.

Well, WAR is supposed to have it (i think) so if CC is just poor man's substitute for that so there can be tactics(tm) ... then lack of cc in this particular game shouldn't result in lack of tactical engagements?

[tmp]

EVE has collision detection!

Having a freighter or other capital ship stuck on loot container was always a /facepalm moment for me.

[Simond]

EVE has collision detection!

giev missl or bump

[UnSub]

CC is ok if you put long immunity timers on it.  For example, If I get CC'd for 2 seconds, I should be immune to all CC for the next 25.  The problems come in when you can chain CC a person.

Fury had quite a few good ideas in relation to CC, such as any damage knocking you out of that state. To me, that is a better option than all CC's lasting for X seconds regardless of what is going on.

I also like the idea that instead of a large number of different CC types, you work on a continuum from unaffected -> locked down and all that changes are the external graphic effects for flavour. CC could build from different sources, but it would take a lot for you to lose control of the character (and taking damage would drop you down the continuum towards unaffected too).

[eldaec]

MMOs that have it off the top of my head.

UO
EQ
CoH/CoV
Planetside

This is why I find it bizarre when people suggest that collision detection would cause the sky to fall because of 'exploits'.

No it wouldn't. Plenty of games already have it. And <checks window> yes, sky is still in place.

[Megrim]

CC is ok if you put long immunity timers on it.  For example, If I get CC'd for 2 seconds, I should be immune to all CC for the next 25.  The problems come in when you can chain CC a person.

Fury had quite a few good ideas in relation to CC, such as any damage knocking you out of that state. To me, that is a better option than all CC's lasting for X seconds regardless of what is going on.

I also like the idea that instead of a large number of different CC types, you work on a continuum from unaffected -> locked down and all that changes are the external graphic effects for flavour. CC could build from different sources, but it would take a lot for you to lose control of the character (and taking damage would drop you down the continuum towards unaffected too).

CC works fine as long as you provide adequate counters to it, made available to all players. Items that grant temporary immunity, buffs that can be cast onto you to prevent you from being CC'ed for x time, etc...

[Simond]

MMOs that have it off the top of my head.

UO
EQ
CoH/CoV
Planetside

This is why I find it bizarre when people suggest that collision detection would cause the sky to fall because of 'exploits'.

No it wouldn't. Plenty of games already have it. And <checks window> yes, sky is still in place.

So you never got stuck between a train and an ogre wall at the zoneline in EQ?

[Drugstore Space Cowboy]

MMOs that have it off the top of my head.

UO
EQ
CoH/CoV
Planetside

This is why I find it bizarre when people suggest that collision detection would cause the sky to fall because of 'exploits'.

No it wouldn't. Plenty of games already have it. And <checks window> yes, sky is still in place.

So you never got stuck between a train and an ogre wall at the zoneline in EQ?

Or had an invisible griefer blocking the only entrance to the building you were in?

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for collision detection. But to suggest that exploiting isn't often a problem is erroneous.

[Koyasha]

Honestly, no, I never really had any significant problems with people blocking my path that I can recall in my many years of playing EQ.  I did occasionally run across places that were difficult to get through because there were a lot of people there, perhaps even people trying to block the path, I don't really know, but it was never too difficult to move through them.  EQ characters don't block 100% of the space they occupy, there's pretty much always a way through.

Regardless, this is an easy to solve problem anyways - I think they covered it in UO, where you could shove others out of the way and it would use some stamina.  CoH's 'shoving' is too sensitive, all I have to do is have someone walk past me and I'll usually be inched out of the way a bit, but a system whereby you can be pushed by an intentional act (target character, click 'push' or 'shove' or even 'push past' ability).  The last would be the most foolproof method, allowing you to move through the other character's space by pushing past them.  These of course would be non-combat abilities, combat related pushing and such would rely on different mechanics.

[eldaec]

Honestly, no, I never really had any significant problems with people blocking my path that I can recall in my many years of playing EQ.

This.

I suspect some people here were playing on the bizarro-world evil server, widely known to be populated almost exclusively by pantomine villians and team rocket.

[FatuousTwat]

Warhammeronline.com and it's DAoC equivalent have been down since around 11... Weak.

[MahrinSkel]

Wish (just kidding)

I'm pretty sure Wish had collision detection.  (It was so long ago though, I could be mistaken.)

Actually, and unfortunately, we did not.  What we had was point-and-click movement, but it was "stateless", and according to our lead programmer it was impossible to even get it to recognize that a door was closed (which is why there weren't any).

We did have a very different CC paradigm planned, though.  CC was bound to a location, with an in-game object representing the spell, one that could be attacked and destroyed.  The idea was that it was one of several area-based spells (including buffs, debuffs, and slow heals and poisons) that required the caster of them to remain fairly close to the location, creating the equivalent of field fortifications.  The only one that would completely stop movement through it had two specific limitations planned:

1) The focus objects were at the perimeter.

2) Friendly movement within the AOE would be slowed, it would act as a snare even to them.  If that was too strong or annoying, then it would just neutralize any speed buffs.

All of this would work on a "concentration" like Focus system (so the really wide AE's would take a high-level caster to maintain, and it might be the only effect he'd be keeping up), and take some expensive and possibly bulky physical reagents.  I was considering some other variations, like multi-caster versions, tying the destruction of a focus object to some kind of negative effect on the caster like temporarily unusable Focus points or other negative debuffs, and "anchored" semi-permanent versions for House controlled towns.  Focus powers wouldn't affect NPC's, and ordinary spell versions of crowd control wouldn't affect players.  Or letting players share maintenance of Focus spells, so one particular caster getting killed didn't make your defense fall apart (would also let less advanced casters participate, by taking the load off the main casters).

Just one of the many things I really regret not getting a chance to try out in Wish.

--Dave (goats!)

[pxib]

Having played Guild Wars, I'm really not sure that "CC" as it's being discussed here is necessary at all. That game has abilities like "Pacifism" (player cannot attack, broken by damage) and "Backfire" (players takes a LARGE amount of damage every time they cast a spell) which hinder an enemy in interesting ways. Also multiple abiltiies cause conditions like "cripple" (half movement speed), "blind" (miss chance increases to 90%) and "dazed" (double spellcasting time, all spells made interruptable by damage).

A few ice enchantments dropped movement speed to 20%, but I do not believe there's a single conventional root. Some abilities made it painful and awkward to cast spells, a few could even silence you but nothing put you to sleep. The closest to a stun is a skill called "Blackout" which completely disables all of a players skills for a short time, but it disables all of the caster's skills as well. and doesn't stop either from attacking or moving. All of these could be stacked, of course, but that required time and effort, usually on the part of multiple players, and offered a lot of options for a smart team to protect themselves.

Mez, root, stun, and fear feel a little shallow and silly after all that.

Tactical depth isn't about specific game mechanics, it's about how many options you have and how much control you have over those options.

[apocrypha]

Or had an invisible griefer blocking the only entrance to the building you were in?

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for collision detection. But to suggest that exploiting isn't often a problem is erroneous.

Age of Conan solved this very quickly after release. They made it so that when you crouched and moved your collision detection for other players was turned off. You couldn't fight like that and you moved really slowly but it stopped the cockblockers on mammoth mounts jamming up alleys and bridges.

Really, it's such an easy thing to fix and yet still have collision detection working for most of the time.

[Phred]

Or had an invisible griefer blocking the only entrance to the building you were in?

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for collision detection. But to suggest that exploiting isn't often a problem is erroneous.

Age of Conan solved this very quickly after release. They made it so that when you crouched and moved your collision detection for other players was turned off. You couldn't fight like that and you moved really slowly but it stopped the cockblockers on mammoth mounts jamming up alleys and bridges.

Really, it's such an easy thing to fix and yet still have collision detection working for most of the time.

The story I always heard as to why so few games did collision detection wasn't the exploits but the cpu usage on the servers and the accuracy of fast code. Anyone who's got stuck on a station while seeing their ship 100yards from the nearest outcrop could attest to how inaccurate that code is.

[Trippy]

Honestly, no, I never really had any significant problems with people blocking my path that I can recall in my many years of playing EQ.

This.

I suspect some people here were playing on the bizarro-world evil server, widely known to be populated almost exclusively by pantomine villians and team rocket.

The only place in EQ I ever had a problem with this was the entrance area of Upper Guk. The corridor leading to the zone line (to Innothule Swamp) could be completely blocked by a single Ogre. That was definitely grief potential there.

Edit: the

[Sunbury]

Asheron's Call had collision detection between mobs and players at all times, and between players and players if both were PvP+.

And it did cause issues where the client and the server would conflict over where a player character was, with interesting warping effects.  Although it wasn't very bad until they implemented 'sticky melee' back in 2000.  Could be fighting 20 mobs in a narrow hallway.  The mobs have collision detection between each other also, and sometimes the client/server would warp one you were fighting from the front into the middle of the pack, and drag you with it.

Still I'd take that system any day vs the 'stack of mobs'/players effect in most other games.