Anyone play a Druid at release?

[ShenMolo]

I didn't start playing a druid seriously until a year ago, and just started playing one again.

I really enjoy them as they are now. All 3 specs are viable for raiding. Leveling is viable in any spec, with the dps spec also being the tanking spec. PvP as a resto shaman druid (oops) is crazy fun.

How were they at release? I seem to remember them being only used as raid healers back pre-BC.

My only complaint is that to play one as alliance, you have to be a damn elf.

[Fordel]

I've played a Druid since Open beta.

What precisely would you like to know?



In General, We were all 31+resto/11 Feral/spare change balance.


Feral and Balance were both completely useless, bloated and unsupported. The only spec worth putting points into was Restoration, mostly for innervate and NS. At release, there was still the idea that a druid would be able shift forms on the fly to switch roles as easily. This in turn made blizzard "balance" druids on the presumption they would have access to all of their forms/abilities simultaneously. Which in turn made almost all of them completely useless for anything at any time.

Bear form gave shit for armor and health bonus. There was no armor/HP leather and the best tanking weapon was a lvl 43 BoE epic.
Cat form DPS was less then a joke. It also used different stats then rogues for scaling, so you couldn't even steal rogue leather properly.
Balance was... It wasn't even a consideration, it worked less then Cat.

Resto was average but had some really useful abilities, Innervate especially. Innervate in the mana starved early WoW was a key ability, as key as any shadow priest is today.


To top those things off, the druid gear was horrible. It just didn't make any sense, or when it TRIED to make sense, it was so diluted it didn't work. Going back to the original "I'm a Healer/Bear/Cat/Caster" idea, the gear would be split across ALL the available stats in the game. Str/Agi/Sta/Int/Spirit and +heal/dmg/crit/spellcrit/mp5. So you sucked at everything. A little later they decided Druid's would best be served by healing gear, so that's the only kind of none rogue leather that existed pre-TBC. There were a few pieces of +dmg leather, but those were rare and often still suffered from stat dilution.


Like, The old feral tree had Pounce (or Improved Pounce, I honestly don't recall now) as the 31 point talent.
The old balance tree didn't have Moonkin till much later and the 31 point talent was Hurricane, except it was PBAE instead of Ranged AoE, and druids didn't have any pushback resistance.


It took until the TBC talent revisions for Blizz (and a lot of druids) to accept the fact they were actually Two separate classes, and to be treated as such. Feral Druids and Balance/Resto. They still tried to fit the 'hybrid' ideal with Feral in TBC, which is why you have so many feral DPS increases in Resto. The idea that all druids can heal. It still doesn't work in practice. Having a Feral druid pop out and heal someone is only slightly above having that person use a band-aid on themselves. Balance on the other hand does have real potential to be a focus healer with WoTLK changes, especially with +dmg and +heal gear being the same thing come WoTLK.

[Kitsune]

I was a feral druid at release.  Fordel's right, they sucked hard compared to where they are today; I was sticking with it more from spite than anything else, and it basically required cherry-picking certain talents from all three trees to be at all workable. 

Current ferals aren't gimped as healers, so long as they have enough warning to put on healing gear; if you're going in knowing that you'll be healing and dress accordingly, a feral druid can do just fine as main healer.  Expecting to be fighting in bear or cat and be able to pop out to heal people is, as Fordel said, unrealistic.  If you're tanking in bear form, shifting out is a quick ticket to a graveyard.  If you're DPSing as a cat and have a tank holding aggro, you can shift out to heal, but healing in DPS gear will be pretty dismal compared to what a geared-up healer will be doing.  Sometimes a quick heal can save the day, though, so even a DPSing feral should be keeping an eye on health bars, just in case.  Better to stop fighting for a few seconds and heal the tank than lose the tank and wipe the party.

Things What Make Ferals Healy:

Nurturing Instinct: +heal equal to your agility score
Heart of the Wild: +20% intellect
Naturalist: Half-second faster casts on healing touch
Intensity: 30% mana regen while casting

As good as a resto spec?  Hell no.  But still plenty nice for talents that the feral is already gonna be taking for the feral bonuses.  If people ask for a healer for an instance that I want to get to, I have no qualms about billing myself as a healer and going through the instance as main healer.  People want DPS?  Sure, I'll do that.  Tank?  Happy to.  That flexibility is what I like best about the class.

[Dren]

I completely agree that feral druids rock on all fronts.  I can heal, dps, or tank on the fly.  You just have to be careful to pick up enough gear along the way to fully equip the three different playstyles.  I use an add-on that automatically changes my outfit depending on the form I'm in and that works for most cases.  You just have to remember that the only thing you can change mid fight is your weapon.

I'm currently fully Feral, which does hurt me on the healing front, but I can heal quite well as a backup or off-healer in a pinch.  While solo'ing?  I can go and go and go pretty much nonstop especially with the latest changes that automatically pop you into the correct form depending on the abilitiy you use.  Get low on health?  Pop on a few instant HOTs and get back to business without breaking stride.

I really wish I had started my druid earlier.  She's 70 now, but way behind my other alts in gear, time, rep, etc.  I found out too late that I enjoy the druid class above all others.  My enhancement shaman comes in a close second.  Again, started that one too late too.

If they really do put in a dual-spec system, I'll be jumping all over a Feral/Treeform combo.

[ShenMolo]

I've played a Druid since Open beta.

What precisely would you like to know?



In General, We were all 31+resto/11 Feral/spare change balance.


Feral and Balance were both completely useless, bloated and unsupported. The only spec worth putting points into was Restoration, mostly for innervate and NS. At release, there was still the idea that a druid would be able shift forms on the fly to switch roles as easily. This in turn made blizzard "balance" druids on the presumption they would have access to all of their forms/abilities simultaneously. Which in turn made almost all of them completely useless for anything at any time.

Bear form gave shit for armor and health bonus. There was no armor/HP leather and the best tanking weapon was a lvl 43 BoE epic.
Cat form DPS was less then a joke. It also used different stats then rogues for scaling, so you couldn't even steal rogue leather properly.
Balance was... It wasn't even a consideration, it worked less then Cat.

Resto was average but had some really useful abilities, Innervate especially. Innervate in the mana starved early WoW was a key ability, as key as any shadow priest is today.


To top those things off, the druid gear was horrible. It just didn't make any sense, or when it TRIED to make sense, it was so diluted it didn't work. Going back to the original "I'm a Healer/Bear/Cat/Caster" idea, the gear would be split across ALL the available stats in the game. Str/Agi/Sta/Int/Spirit and +heal/dmg/crit/spellcrit/mp5. So you sucked at everything. A little later they decided Druid's would best be served by healing gear, so that's the only kind of none rogue leather that existed pre-TBC. There were a few pieces of +dmg leather, but those were rare and often still suffered from stat dilution.


Like, The old feral tree had Pounce (or Improved Pounce, I honestly don't recall now) as the 31 point talent.
The old balance tree didn't have Moonkin till much later and the 31 point talent was Hurricane, except it was PBAE instead of Ranged AoE, and druids didn't have any pushback resistance.


It took until the TBC talent revisions for Blizz (and a lot of druids) to accept the fact they were actually Two separate classes, and to be treated as such. Feral Druids and Balance/Resto. They still tried to fit the 'hybrid' ideal with Feral in TBC, which is why you have so many feral DPS increases in Resto. The idea that all druids can heal. It still doesn't work in practice. Having a Feral druid pop out and heal someone is only slightly above having that person use a band-aid on themselves. Balance on the other hand does have real potential to be a focus healer with WoTLK changes, especially with +dmg and +heal gear being the same thing come WoTLK.

That's the info I was looking for, thanks. It is amazing how much has changed, with every class, and how long it took to get to this point. I don't mean that as a slight against Blizzard. I just mean it's interesting how classes change over time, and what seems so obvious now is so different from what was at the start.

[Nebu]

This is what pisses me off about the missed opportunities in WoW.  Look at druid... all three specs are not only fun, but playable.  WHY COULDN'T THEY HAVE MADE THIS THE CASE FOR ALL OF THE OTHER CLASSES? 

Thanks.  I feel better now.

[Chimpy]

Resto druids were fricking unkillable before the "druid love patch". And since everyone was deep resto because everything else sucked ass (there was one druid in a guild I ran MC with that was full balance, totally threw me for a loop the first time I ever saw hurricane used on a pack of corehounds), all druids by definition were retardedly hard to kill. They couldn't kill you, but they sure as hell would never die because their heals were the most mana-efficient in the game at the time and they could root you indefinitely.

I never played one above level 10, but I did have a couple of friends who played druids near release and my god was levelling a pain for them. I had to bring my 10 levels higher hunter to STV to help one of them a couple times because the mobs in the troll camps would respawn before he could finish killing them to get to the objectives.

[SurfD]

my second max level character was a druid, and she is now my primary character.

yes, leveling a druid was a pain in Pre-TBC WoW.   Shit stat optimization and one properly viable end game tree sucked.  I seem to recall that i leveled as a resto / feral hybrid spec (enough resto to get innervate so people would actually take me to groups, and the rest feral for dps talents so i could actually kill shit).

However, with the changes to our trees and some itemization changes in TBC, i am now full feral and loving it.  The only thing i truly hate about being a druid is that being one of the few properly balanced Hybrids with 3 fully viable trees, I simply dont have enough bag space to store up 4 full sets of gear in the event that i want to have sets ready when i get the urge to swap to a different talent build for kicks.

Yes, 4 sets.  Balance, Resto, Feral Tank and Feral DPS.   Im glad I dont pvp or i wouldnt have any bag space at all, just an entire bank full of gear :/

[lamaros]

my second max level character was a druid, and she is now my primary character.

yes, leveling a druid was a pain in Pre-TBC WoW.   Shit stat optimization and one properly viable end game tree sucked.  I seem to recall that i leveled as a resto / feral hybrid spec (enough resto to get innervate so people would actually take me to groups, and the rest feral for dps talents so i could actually kill shit).

However, with the changes to our trees and some itemization changes in TBC, i am now full feral and loving it.  The only thing i truly hate about being a druid is that being one of the few properly balanced Hybrids with 3 fully viable trees, I simply dont have enough bag space to store up 4 full sets of gear in the event that i want to have sets ready when i get the urge to swap to a different talent build for kicks.

Yes, 4 sets.  Balance, Resto, Feral Tank and Feral DPS.   Im glad I dont pvp or i wouldnt have any bag space at all, just an entire bank full of gear :/

Come WotLK you may well just have caster and melee sets, with a few pieces here and there for the more specific roles. And a PvP set too, I expect.

[Calantus]

This is what pisses me off about the missed opportunities in WoW.  Look at druid... all three specs are not only fun, but playable.  WHY COULDN'T THEY HAVE MADE THIS THE CASE FOR ALL OF THE OTHER CLASSES? 

Thanks.  I feel better now.

What class haven't they managed this on now? It's been a while for some but most classes have very good options. The only ones that come to mind are arcane mages as the useless talent tree at this ppint in time and really, it doesn't matter overly if one slighlty-different-flavour-of-mage is not as viable as the other flavours. Ret paladins were SOL for a long time but have recently become good in raiding and even a few PVP teams are taking them.

[K9]

What class haven't they managed this on now? It's been a while for some but most classes have very good options. The only ones that come to mind are arcane mages as the useless talent tree at this ppint in time and really, it doesn't matter overly if one slighlty-different-flavour-of-mage is not as viable as the other flavours. Ret paladins were SOL for a long time but have recently become good in raiding and even a few PVP teams are taking them.

When I think about it, the only talent tree I can think of that I don't see around much (if at all) these days are Felguard Locks. Every other tree I can think of people going for 41 points in and it being worth it. The only exceptions are Arms where nobody in ther right mind goes beyond MS/Bloodthirst, but Arms warriors have a clear and abundant presence, so I don't think they count. Ret Paladins are still generally horrible, but this is mainly because the people playing them are bad, not because the spec as a whole has problems.

[Fordel]

Ret Paladins still have gear issues and 'Random' issues. As in they're damage output is random. Blood Elves have a major advantage with Seal of Blood, but Alliance Paladins are at the mercy of Seal of Casino.



I'll Echo the druid's kill 'speed' or lack there of. I was fortunate enough to almost always be paired off with a Fire Mage, Rogue or Warlock leveling up. Having to kill things by myself was a lesson in futility, and kiting.

[lamaros]

You see Felguard locks all the time whle leveling still. One of the best leveling specs in the game I believe, a demo lock can solo near everything.

Ret pallies have random damage, but so do all classes, the issue with Ret pallies is that:

1. That randomness also comes with huge varience.
2. They rely on group buffs to really imporve their damage output.
3. Itemisation/gear requirements are still a bit off.

In raiding the difference between Seal of Blood and SoC is not the variance, it's the damage output. Varience evens itself out over time, but SoB simply does more damage. Otherwise Ret Pallies do quite well raidwise. They provide very solid benifit and can do acceptable DPS when properly buffed. The Ret issues at the moment aren't really raiding issues; most progressed guilds will raid with a Ret pally these days. The problems show up the most when soloing, or trying to dps in a poorly complemented group.

[Selby]

When I think about it, the only talent tree I can think of that I don't see around much (if at all) these days are Felguard Locks.

I play one.  It rules.  I like to use my Voidwalker more than the Felguard, but it's a godly leveling spec.

[Fordel]

You don't see many Survival hunters really, that tree is confused. I do believe there is a specific survival build used for 25 man raids as a DPS raid buffer, but otherwise, it's a dump tree.

[Tannhauser]

I have a Arcane Mage with a few points in fire.  Great for pve.

[Chimpy]

You don't see many Survival hunters really, that tree is confused. I do believe there is a specific survival build used for 25 man raids as a DPS raid buffer, but otherwise, it's a dump tree.

A good survival hunter should do respectable DPS on their own while keeping EW and Imp Mark up. Our SV hunter was easily doing 2k+ before we threw in the towel after a month of not being able to kill Brut because of attrition/shady attendance.

And survival is the most oddly gear dependant spec in the game probably. I can't think of any spec that relies almost 100% on a single stat anymore.

[Selby]

I have a Arcane Mage with a few points in fire.  Great for pve.

I leveled my first mage with something like 41 arcane and 10 in fire back when all of the good mana conserving talents required arcane investment rather than being given to you at a certain level.  It was a great spec even if the crowd control was slightly lacking compared to frost though.  Now I just level up to water elemental in frost and then go for clearcasting\silence in the arcane tree.  Mage is a pretty nice tree, all of the trees are useful leveling specs with variations in crowd control, downtime, and how quickly things die.  But not enough differences to make you feel like "I royally fucked up, where is the fun?"

[SurfD]

I have a Arcane Mage with a few points in fire.  Great for pve.

I leveled my first mage with something like 41 arcane and 10 in fire back when all of the good mana conserving talents required arcane investment rather than being given to you at a certain level.  It was a great spec even if the crowd control was slightly lacking compared to frost though.  Now I just level up to water elemental in frost and then go for clearcasting\silence in the arcane tree.  Mage is a pretty nice tree, all of the trees are useful leveling specs with variations in crowd control, downtime, and how quickly things die.  But not enough differences to make you feel like "I royally fucked up, where is the fun?"

my main was a mage (i now play the druid primarily) and i have been deep fire spec since day one.  Main reason i no longer play my mage is because the only benefit she brings to raids any more is a water table, and int buff, and a CC.  It saddens me that nearly everything we can do as mages, warlocks can now do better, with a HUGE margin more survivability and endurance in long fights.

[Selby]

Main reason i no longer play my mage is because the only benefit she brings to raids any more is a water table, and int buff, and a CC.

Same problem here (an arcane mage in MC was such fun...).  My mage brought absolutely NOTHING to the raid except water for people, sheep, and decursing.  Mages kill stuff considerably faster in more varied ways than warlocks do, but warlocks are practically invincible and can take on mob after mob without too much effort while a mage usually is spent after 1-2 kills.  Stuff dies fast for mages, but an add can really fuck up your Christmas if you aren't watching that mana bar like a hawk.  Which is why I enjoy playing my warlock, even if it is a bit boring from time to time to send Big Blue in, cast the same 3 DoTs, and occasionally drain a soul, health funnel, or mana\life drain repeatedly.  Can't argue with the results though.

[SurfD]

Main reason i no longer play my mage is because the only benefit she brings to raids any more is a water table, and int buff, and a CC.

Same problem here (an arcane mage in MC was such fun...).  My mage brought absolutely NOTHING to the raid except water for people, sheep, and decursing.  Mages kill stuff considerably faster in more varied ways than warlocks do, but warlocks are practically invincible and can take on mob after mob without too much effort while a mage usually is spent after 1-2 kills.  Stuff dies fast for mages, but an add can really fuck up your Christmas if you aren't watching that mana bar like a hawk.  Which is why I enjoy playing my warlock, even if it is a bit boring from time to time to send Big Blue in, cast the same 3 DoTs, and occasionally drain a soul, health funnel, or mana\life drain repeatedly.  Can't argue with the results though.

I dont know about the "considerably" faster part any more either.  A well geared destro lock does OBSCENE damage with shadowbolts.  Fuck, some guy in my guild crits every 4th or 5th shadowbolt for more then my pyroblast crits for....

[K9]

You see Felguard locks all the time whle leveling still. One of the best leveling specs in the game I believe, a demo lock can solo near everything.

I probably should have added "at 70". There's a bunch of SL/SL locks, but I really see next to no Felguard locks anywhere. Survival Hunters could be a close second, but I do see a couple of them, and they have a defined role in endgame raiding.

[Selby]

A well geared destro lock does OBSCENE damage with shadowbolts.  Fuck, some guy in my guild crits every 4th or 5th shadowbolt for more then my pyroblast crits for....

Yeah but that is at 70 after some serious gear investments I am assuming.  I refer to mostly leveling because I don't do endgame anymore.  If you run into a monster that resists shadow magic while leveling, a 'lock can have issues with it.  At least a mage has 3 different types of magic (but no physical, which is nice from the 'lock perspective).

I guess my point is *my* warlocks never outdamage my mage, but then I could be doing it wrong ;-)

[Fordel]

After T5 or so, A Destro/Sacrifice Lock is just retarded good DPS. Once you hit the Hit cap/1k dmg/25% item crit or something. Don't even use DoTs anymore. Just spam that shadow bolt.


They could also spam their fire nuke, but it fails to compete with all the +shadow bonuses they manage to stack.

[Chimpy]

After T5 or so, A Destro/Sacrifice Lock is just retarded good DPS. Once you hit the Hit cap/1k dmg/25% item crit or something. Don't even use DoTs anymore. Just spam that shadow bolt.


They could also spam their fire nuke, but it fails to compete with all the +shadow bonuses they manage to stack.

CoS+SB for 2 minutes+Reapply CoS if mob is still alive+more SB

Lifetap as necessary to regain mana and stand near enough to someone taking regular dmg to get chain heal bounces.

[Dren]

After T5 or so, A Destro/Sacrifice Lock is just retarded good DPS. Once you hit the Hit cap/1k dmg/25% item crit or something. Don't even use DoTs anymore. Just spam that shadow bolt.


They could also spam their fire nuke, but it fails to compete with all the +shadow bonuses they manage to stack.

CoS+SB for 2 minutes+Reapply CoS if mob is still alive+more SB

Lifetap as necessary to regain mana and stand near enough to someone taking regular dmg to get chain heal bounces.

This.

My lock is at around +1150-1200 shadow damage while buffed (imp out.)  I think my crit is around 22%.  Spell hit around 110.  CoS + SB gives me normal strikes at about 1800-2200.  The talent that allows additional subsequent damage after a crit bump that up to 2000-2400.  Normal Crits around 3500.  Stacked crits at 4000+.  I have some spell haste so my SB is every 2.44 seconds or something like that. My gear is purely from Kara, Gruul's, Mag's, and badges.

I do throw up some DOTs from time to time because it seems like I'm always having to move or do some CC/utility of some type.  The DOTs are nice to put that blanket of DPS out there at all times.  Lifetap keeps your mana available pretty much at all times although Destro spec really hurts your supply and recovery.

My main problem with this spec is the agro management.  One big crit and I'm toast.  I'm a lot more apt to pull agro with these big crits and I'm a lot squishier without the SL benefits.  I have soul shatter to try and drop agro fast, but it is pretty touchy.  A mage has more options that seem to be more reliable.

It is funny this just came up because I respecced during lunch to SL again.  I like topping the DPS charts during our raids, but I'm just tired of dieing over and over and the bills for repair while wearing full purple are getting annoying.  (Yes, I recognize this is nothing compared to tanks.)  I'm going to see if I can maintain my position on the DPS charts with this build now.

[K9]

I'd say you need to regem/re-enchant from dmg to hit, 101 is pretty low.

[Dren]

I'd say you need to regem/re-enchant from dmg to hit, 101 is pretty low.

I've been working on it.  I don't have a consistent supply of "to hit" gems/chants to it has been slow.  So far, with the intances I've been running this hasn't caused any problems really, so I haven't made it a huge priority.

[Chimpy]

I'd say you need to regem/re-enchant from dmg to hit, 101 is pretty low.

Isn't the hit cap for a destro lock like 110 because of talents?

[K9]

Isn't the hit cap for a destro lock like 110 because of talents?

I thought it was 202.

Destro locks have no +hit talents.

[lamaros]

Isn't the hit cap for a destro lock like 110 because of talents?

I thought it was 202.

Destro locks have no +hit talents.

~200 or somesuch.

You'd have to cap out hit because soul shatter is in the demo tree, even if there was a +hit telent for destro.

[Dren]

Since we are on the subject of Locks.  I never could figure out if the damage from the draining spells (mana and health) were considered Shadow or not.  Do they get affected by my +shadow dmg?  That's been my only concern going more affliction.

[Chimpy]

Since we are on the subject of Locks.  I never could figure out if the damage from the draining spells (mana and health) were considered Shadow or not.  Do they get affected by my +shadow dmg?  That's been my only concern going more affliction.

If you mean drain-life, yes it should be shadow dmg.

[SurfD]

I vaguely recall reading somewhere on one of the theory crafting websites that after a certain amount of +spell damage, Curse of Shadows + full dot rotation is actually more DPS then Curse of Agony + dots as an affliction lock.

[Dren]

I vaguely recall reading somewhere on one of the theory crafting websites that after a certain amount of +spell damage, Curse of Shadows + full dot rotation is actually more DPS then Curse of Agony + dots as an affliction lock.

I've found that myself experimentally, but I use it not just for that.  It helps out the entire raid/party typically.  I'll especially be using it with the upcoming change to have the one curse amplify fire, shadow, ice, and fire all in one.  That is quite a boon to locks --- and raids that have locks.