Think Oil's Expensive? Covert Blizzard Ban Sends WoW Gold Skyrocketing

[Merusk]

I Impulse ADD'd a few items on the AH while leveling Jewelcrafting on my new, fresh-server Warlock.  I STILL managed to hit 70 with 2009 gold on the character.  Then add another 700 on the auctionhouse/ bank alt I started using at 66 because I was sick of traveling to Org. every day to relist the stuff I picked-up while leveling.

Yes, it really IS that easy to get money.  If you can't get it because you don't have the time (~1h) to run ALL of the Quel'Danas dailies, then you don't have the /need/ for the shiney, either.  Because after all, you're not going to be able to hang out in front of the banks in shat looking cool which, other than raids, is the only reason for the ubergear.

Also Blizzard is pretty upfront about its continuing efforts to ban/sue the crap out of RMT operators so calling it a 'covert ban' isn't really appropriate.

I think it's "covert" because they didn't announce it this time, and it seems like a pretty large ban to have affected the price of gold.  Kind of like back in '06 when they banned 30k at once and the same thing happened.

[Oban]

I usually make about 150-200g doing just the QD island dailies, selling the greys and auctioning the greens.  No clue how much I would make if I did all 25 dailies available, but the island funds are more than enough for me to fund two alts and my nasty habit of jewelcrafting.

Buying gold now seems rather silly since even the epic mount is pretty useless unless you have a harvesting tradeskill.

[ShenMolo]

Can I ask honestly if anyone has ANY trouble getting gold in WoW ?

I have trouble getting gold in WoW. To get gold in WoW you have to spend time. It may be easy, but it's all time.

My impression is that gold is sold to the "need it now" crowd. They reach level 70 and want flying mounts NOW. They want the highest price auction items NOW. They want to grind up a different tradeskill NOW. They want expensive faction bonuses NOW.

All of these things are utterly pointless and worthless unless you've enjoyed the journey to obtaining them. So the sane attitude is to accept that you're moving through the game at your own pace, and it's only a game so it doesn't really matter when those things come, because they will eventually. But there's a wider perception that these things do have a point and are worth something, so ... need to experience it now, will pay.

This kind of "Why can't you play like me" makes me laugh.

RMT isn't corruption...this isn't the local zoning laws and its not a soccer match with winners and losers.

People who use RMT don't have a "personality problem".

Get some perspective.

[IainC]

This kind of "Why can't you play like me" makes me laugh.

RMT isn't corruption...this isn't the local zoning laws and its not a soccer match with winners and losers.

People who use RMT don't have a "personality problem".

Get some perspective.

You may not agree with the specific points raised by Tale and I guess they are kinda subjective and open to debate. What isn't open to debate however is that RMT impacts everyone else on the server in some way regardless of whether they choose to avail themselves of it or not. The people who justify their actions with 'why do you care what I do with my money' are the ones who need to get some perspective.

[Kitsune]

RMT as a concept is not disruptive.  RMT as a real-world practice, with all of the bad behavior that comes with trying to make it most profitable, is very disruptive.  People who use RMT don't have a personality problem, but they're either failing to understand or failing to care about the consequences of supporting that market.  Most, I expect, are the latter.

[ShenMolo]

RMT as a concept is not disruptive.  RMT as a real-world practice, with all of the bad behavior that comes with trying to make it most profitable, is very disruptive.  People who use RMT don't have a personality problem, but they're either failing to understand or failing to care about the consequences of supporting that market.  Most, I expect, are the latter.

Yes

I would add that the bad behavior of the real-world RMT trade stems equally from flawed game design. Kudos to Eve and EQ2 for trying to make some progress in this area.

[Fordel]

The Spam and the Efforts to counter RMT are what bother me.


The whole 1 hour before you can receive your auction money? That sucks. :(

[Numtini]

I

also second Ironwood's question: How the hell do you have trouble getting gold?  Just stop buying EVERY single fucking little thing you think you need for your character (especially if you KNOW you are going to replace it in like 6 hours of leveling anyway) and maybe go out and farm a few mats yourself and you will save a bundle.  And dailies are a licence to fucking print money once you hit 70. 

With auctioneer, I honestly have no idea how people can't have money. I rerolled on a new server to group with a friend. I'm 10th level, started this morning, and I'm already speculating. It's so insanely easy. You just need a week of data and a pigeon who decides 50sp is the right price for a stack of runecloth.

[Kail]

With auctioneer, I honestly have no idea how people can't have money.

Not everybody has Auctioneer, and if everyone did have auctioneer, it would be far less profitable (if I understand it's function correctly).

I don't have Auctioneer (though I realize I should probably get it), and I am to high finance what Homer Simpson is to Automotive Engineering.  I have a fair amount of trouble with money while I'm levelling.  My furthest Alliance character is level 49 and still doesn't have a mount.  In general, I find it fairly difficult to stay wealthy while levelling unless I forgo taking a crafting skill in favor of two gathering skills or something.  It seems like I can't sell anything on the AH (because no one is buying lowbie stuff with any regularity), and can't buy anything on the AH (because it's all listed at a price that someone with a level 70 alt would feel comfortable paying for), which means my only source of income is just through regular quests and mob loot, which doesn't always keep pace with training costs.  I suspect this is why even the new 1-20 areas in BC have had their gold rewards pushed through the roof compared to pre-BC stuff.

After hitting outland, I generally don't have money problems (after I absorb the hit that training my trade skills to max incurs), until I hit 70 and need gold for the epic flyer (none of my characters have one; the richest is sitting on something like 4.5k).  I can make something like 150g/day with the dailies, but even there, I'm looking at something like two months of running Sunwell quests over and over again every single day before I can afford it.

[Tale]

This kind of "Why can't you play like me" makes me laugh.

RMT isn't corruption...this isn't the local zoning laws and its not a soccer match with winners and losers.

People who use RMT don't have a "personality problem".

Get some perspective.

Why don't you offer me some perspective then, instead of just saying "you're wrong"?

Do you use RMT?

[lamaros]

I don't use RMT but I have no problem with it at all. I do have a problem with people spamming me shit, but that's not RMT per se.

[UnSub]

RMT as a concept is not disruptive.  RMT as a real-world practice, with all of the bad behavior that comes with trying to make it most profitable, is very disruptive.  People who use RMT don't have a personality problem, but they're either failing to understand or failing to care about the consequences of supporting that market.  Most, I expect, are the latter.

Yes.

Here's the thing I don't get: why external RMT is even an issue when MMO devs could provide the same services cheaper, easier and be officially sanctioned. To count it up:

1) There are apparently a lot of people who buy things through unauthorised RMT services with real money, but this can get them banned.
2) Devs can magic in-game stuff out of the air.
3) Devs offer to magic in-game stuff out of the air for players and not ban them for doing so.
4) Profit!

I know this model exists for F2P games, but it would work for sub-fee models too. You have the option of either letting something drop normally (so, if you have the time, you can get it) or in buying it from an official store (so, if you have the money, you can get it).

Before anyone complains that this means players won't 'earn' their way - it's meant to be a game, not a martial arts dojo. If the guy next to you bought their lvl 9001 Barbaric Half-Gnome, who cares? You've got the experience of playing the character for all those hours; they've got where they want to be in order to start playing.

All RMT spam would stop tomorrow if such services became economically unsustainable. Until then, spammers will do what they need to do to get business - gold farm, exploit, drop gnomes, whatever.

[Tebonas]

That same old discussion again?

It means shit what cheating you the players feel or don't feel appropriate or disruptive to the environment.

The game provider decides. In this case Blizzard. They ban you for it. End of discussion. If you can't abide by the rules of a game you play, don't play the game.

[IainC]

Yes.

Here's the thing I don't get: why external RMT is even an issue when MMO devs could provide the same services cheaper, easier and be officially sanctioned. To count it up:

1) There are apparently a lot of people who buy things through unauthorised RMT services with real money, but this can get them banned.
2) Devs can magic in-game stuff out of the air.
3) Devs offer to magic in-game stuff out of the air for players and not ban them for doing so.
4) Profit!

I know this model exists for F2P games, but it would work for sub-fee models too. You have the option of either letting something drop normally (so, if you have the time, you can get it) or in buying it from an official store (so, if you have the money, you can get it).

Because a lot of people won't play a game which is as aggressively and overtly monetised as that. If paying X dollars buys you a full suit of top line gear then paying X dollars becomes the new baseline. People who aren't willing to do that for any reason effectively can't play at a meaningful level. Your hardcore will pay it but the casual majority who are making you money-hats from subs won't and they will leave when they realise the buy-in is greater than they are willing to commit to.

[Tale]

I know this model exists for F2P games, but it would work for sub-fee models too. You have the option of either letting something drop normally (so, if you have the time, you can get it) or in buying it from an official store (so, if you have the money, you can get it).

Do you really see games so coldly and mechanically? Don't you value the creativity and suspension of disbelief in imaginary adventures?

Before anyone complains that this means players won't 'earn' their way - it's meant to be a game, not a martial arts dojo. If the guy next to you bought their lvl 9001 Barbaric Half-Gnome, who cares? You've got the experience of playing the character for all those hours; they've got where they want to be in order to start playing.

In an imaginary world where everyone is created equally, your imaginary life's journey is separate from reality, so players should not be separated by real life money. A 12-year-old kid who earns pocket money can be a tank, grouped with a healer played by a 60-year-old billionaire. They can be peers unless you bring a real world factor into it.

"We create worlds" - "You're in our world now" - the whole thing works by isolating you from real factors. Even now, if the guy next to me bought his stuff on ebay and I find out, I don't want anything to do with him. Because that player is no longer in the same game as me - I've lived my character's life and he hasn't.

If it was a commercial part of the game and somehow worked, I would still feel it cheapened the imaginary world. I wouldn't want the RMT types on my server, because they're not really playing.

[Fordel]

I only feel that way Tale, when I have to directly or indirectly compete against the person purchasing something. It's the same reason I stay away from Collectible Card/Mini games and the like.


Otherwise I see RMT much the way I used to see the Kids with the 100 dollar Hockey Sticks when I played street hockey. They might have had bragging rights and 'teh shiny', but their fancy stick didn't really preform any better then my 15 dollar one. We were still playing the same game, at the same level.


If you can have RMT without the side effect of spam and the like, I really don't give a crap, as long as it's cosmetic or auxiliary.

[rk47]

Unfortunately when you're playing in PVP server that hockey stick is not really a matter of 'technique' anymore.
It's just that simple. I avoided PVP-centric games that allows outside money to play a part. It's hard enough to invest time to catch up with the grind for EXP & Gears, now they had to let money matter. I can't compete. PVE server wise, I'm not too concerned about it. It sure made gold-skill-ups materials more expensive to buy, but it has the side effect of making it easier to rake in gold if you're an active harvester-seller.

[Lum]

I have trouble getting gold in WoW. To get gold in WoW you have to spend time. It may be easy, but it's all time.

Once you're 70, you can do the Quel'Danas dailies. If you just do the ones on the island, you can make over 100g for an hour of playtime (hardcore probably have it down to a half hour). It really can't get much simpler. I've been funding a tailoring habit this way (netherweave don't grow on trees) and I'm about as casual a WoW player as it gets.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Simply put, if blizzard allowed RMT they wouldn't have 10mil subscribers, it is not a popular system in games.

[Xanthippe]

RMT in WoW doesn't bother me one bit.  I've been playing since launch, and I have never, ever been inconvenienced by farmers.  Sure, I've run into them.  I've even killed them, repeatedly, for sport.  I've never bought or sold gold or items or engaged in any kind of RMT.  I'm pretty sure I haven't been affected by them at all.

Getting money in WoW is easy, and has always been, except the first few months.  I've won the AH game (yes, alchemy was key, but now it's mining and/or JC) more than once.  One of my toons has 33k gold, and with inventory between all toons on that server, probably 50k.  And yet I have nothing to spend it on. 

(Where's housing!?!)

Starting on a new server, gold is even more stupidly easy to get now than ever before - just find a market and exploit it.  Some people on Venture Co. lately are selling Netherweave bags for 15g/each.  With netherweave costs at break even (3g/stack), they're making good gold.

I'm sure there's a game that's severely impacted by RMT, but WoW isn't.  Since I'm not affected, I'm agnostic on the issue in WoW.  If Blizzard wants to sell gold directly, I don't care.  I just want them to make new battlegrounds.  Or give me something to spend my thousands on.

[Dren]

RMT in WoW doesn't bother me one bit. 

*snip*

I'm sure there's a game that's severely impacted by RMT, but WoW isn't.  Since I'm not affected, I'm agnostic on the issue in WoW.  If Blizzard wants to sell gold directly, I don't care.  I just want them to make new battlegrounds.  Or give me something to spend my thousands on.

To be fair, this is your experience with Blizzard actively spending resources against RMT.  We really can't know what it would be like if they let the doors open.

I've had much the same experience as you, but I will remind you of the general spam in tells, says, and mail that they have nearly erased.  Just before they implemented changes in the game to get rid of this, it was really quite obtrusive.  Yes, you could shut all of your communication lines off, but then it wouldn't be much of an MMO.

Those are the things that I do know and were quite evident.  All of these other stories of bannings, etc. means there is much more going on that I don't know about.  The WoW of today could be a lot different than it is if they stopped working against RMT all together.

I won't play a game with ingame RMT.  There is just too much opportunity for it to be taken just a bit too far.  They could always start off with a seemingly balanced solution to it, but over the long term that cash will just look too good and RMT will be made into a necessity to get further in the game.  I'd rather not be led into that kind of situation, so I won't start it.  I'd much rather they just jack my monthly sub price up.  At least that is something I can understand up front and decide for myself if it is worth it.

In principle, I agree with Tale.  RMT at its root just allows people with money to gain an edge.  That is as basic as it gets.

If you want to continue down the sports angle, try this.  Kids little league.  One team has a player that comes from a very rich family.  They paid for the whole team to go to 2 weeks traning camp led by Major League players.  They get the best bats, gloves, shoes, etc.  All the other teams couldn't come close to affording that.  This practice isn't illegal.  Some would even argue that it isn't really unethical.  How do the other teams feel when they consistently lose to this team?  Does the actions of this one team take anything away from the others' enjoyment of the game of baseball?

[Numtini]

I know this model exists for F2P games

Not really. RMT doesn't exist in the way we are talking about it here in most cash shop games. The things you pay for with out of game money in cash shop games are usually things that speed gameplay by a minor amount: runspeed potions, minor healing potions for between fights, 10%/20% xp enhancers, "subway passes" that allow free travel. Second, are required items that end up being a type of subscription--access to the cliff of honor where you need to talk to a trainer getting level X, a key to the whatever region which is the only place you can level above Y.  And most of all vanity items: really attractive appearance slot items that have no effect at all on the game.

[IainC]

I know this model exists for F2P games

Not really. RMT doesn't exist in the way we are talking about it here in most cash shop games. The things you pay for with out of game money in cash shop games are usually things that speed gameplay by a minor amount: runspeed potions, minor healing potions for between fights, 10%/20% xp enhancers, "subway passes" that allow free travel. Second, are required items that end up being a type of subscription--access to the cliff of honor where you need to talk to a trainer getting level X, a key to the whatever region which is the only place you can level above Y.  And most of all vanity items: really attractive appearance slot items that have no effect at all on the game.

Correct. Most F2P games have two different item tracks. Stuff you buy from the shop is entirely different to stuff that you get via ingame means. It's not better, it's not 'alternate', it's entirely different set of options.

[Xanthippe]

RMT in WoW doesn't bother me one bit.

*snip*

I'm sure there's a game that's severely impacted by RMT, but WoW isn't.  Since I'm not affected, I'm agnostic on the issue in WoW.  If Blizzard wants to sell gold directly, I don't care.  I just want them to make new battlegrounds.  Or give me something to spend my thousands on.

To be fair, this is your experience with Blizzard actively spending resources against RMT.  We really can't know what it would be like if they let the doors open.

I've had much the same experience as you, but I will remind you of the general spam in tells, says, and mail that they have nearly erased.  Just before they implemented changes in the game to get rid of this, it was really quite obtrusive.  Yes, you could shut all of your communication lines off, but then it wouldn't be much of an MMO.

Those are the things that I do know and were quite evident.  All of these other stories of bannings, etc. means there is much more going on that I don't know about.  The WoW of today could be a lot different than it is if they stopped working against RMT all together.

This is all true, and I agree.

I'm not in favor of RMT being sanctioned, but my point is that as things stand right now - given what Blizzard has done so far, RMT has impacted the average WoW very little.  It's entirely possible to play the game and get nice things and get rich in game without ever buying gold or leveling services or anything else.  Gold is extremely easy to come by, just by playing the game.

[Numtini]

I don't have Auctioneer (though I realize I should probably get it), and I am to high finance what Homer Simpson is to Automotive Engineering.

I have similar financial skills. I just run auctioneer so I know the prices on things. Then once a day I do a run with my bank alt and let it find bargains mostly on cloth, skins, and ore, and I resell them.

I rerolled six days ago on a new server. I took skinning and sold my first stack for 90s, I spent 45s on a new weapon and sent 45s to my bank alt. I now have 33 gold and my character is only level 17.

That's without dominating a market or any of that other stuff that the eve/auctioneer high finance people talk about. That's just from scanning the market and finding a few stacks of herbs and ore that were being sold for 20s and were worth 5-10gp then buying and reselling.

[Calantus]

My brother just got keylogged today and all his stuff taken, as well as 3 characters deleted (the ones they used to rob the gbank, to cover their tracks I guess). That's the real cost of WoW's underground gold market.

[Chimpy]

My brother just got keylogged today and all his stuff taken, as well as 3 characters deleted (the ones they used to rob the gbank, to cover their tracks I guess). That's the real cost of WoW's underground gold market.

The reality is that while people say RMT has not affected them at all, it has. If you have any kind of simple customer service or in game ticket issue, it will not be handled as quickly and effectively as you would like because a large part of Blizzard's customer service work right now is restoring "hacked" accounts and trying to track down the factory gold sellers. It is also the reason why they decided to up the number of dailies allowed per day and to give you more money for the new ones they add in: it makes legitimate gold so easy to come by that you have to be extremely lazy to find it absolutely necessary to buy gold.

[lamaros]

I got hacked and had most of my stuff returned within hours. The rest was a day or two later.

And it's not the "real cost". That's just hyperbole. The "real cost" of driving a car includes the pain and discomfort of those few who have it stolen? Wheeeee.

[Merusk]

I got hacked and had most of my stuff returned within hours. The rest was a day or two later.

And it's not the "real cost". That's just hyperbole. The "real cost" of driving a car includes the pain and discomfort of those few who have it stolen? Wheeeee.

 

No, that's the real impact on your tax bill, as more police are needed.  Blizz polices this themselves so it affects their customers in cost, content and customer service time.


Anywho, what the fuck are you all doing that so many people get hacked? Downloading shit? Following links? Flash-Based programs running willy-nilly? Stupid logins and easy passwords?

[lamaros]

Yeah but since things have been hacked alot my monthly fee hasn't gone up and the response time to hacked accounts has gone down.

 

Say what?

[Calantus]

I got hacked and had most of my stuff returned within hours. The rest was a day or two later.

And it's not the "real cost". That's just hyperbole. The "real cost" of driving a car includes the pain and discomfort of those few who have it stolen? Wheeeee.

No, that's the real cost of buying stolen cars.

He still hasn't got his stuff back btw.

He also hasn't got WoW fully patched yet. Hours of computer time spent copying files to DVDs, reformatting and installing Windows, installing other programs, putting his data back ontot he computer, then installing updates for every program including over a gig of WoW downloads alone. It's a massive bitch.

[Kitsune]

I got hacked and had most of my stuff returned within hours. The rest was a day or two later.

And it's not the "real cost". That's just hyperbole. The "real cost" of driving a car includes the pain and discomfort of those few who have it stolen? Wheeeee.

That's a shitty analogy.  Unless your car is full of delicious cake, and there's a market of people who'll buy delicious cake without asking any questions about where it came from.  And even then the proper analogy is that the real cost of owning delicious cake includes assholes who go around making their living from breaking into peoples' cars for the cakes to sell to people who know that the cake is likely stolen.  From cars.

See?  Much better analogy.

[lamaros]

I need to get some cake now, thanks.

[AngryGumball]

I

also second Ironwood's question: How the hell do you have trouble getting gold?  Just stop buying EVERY single fucking little thing you think you need for your character (especially if you KNOW you are going to replace it in like 6 hours of leveling anyway) and maybe go out and farm a few mats yourself and you will save a bundle.  And dailies are a licence to fucking print money once you hit 70. 

With auctioneer, I honestly have no idea how people can't have money. I rerolled on a new server to group with a friend. I'm 10th level, started this morning, and I'm already speculating. It's so insanely easy. You just need a week of data and a pigeon who decides 50sp is the right price for a stack of runecloth.

bah, changed mind delete.

[Simond]

Anywho, what the fuck are you all doing that so many people get hacked? Downloading shit? Following links? Flash-Based programs running willy-nilly? Stupid logins and easy passwords?

Every been to Wowhead/Alla/Thottbot without a popup-blocker, scripting disabled and no ads? They you might have got a trojan from one of the ads.