Blizzard announces work on a new MMO

[Hutch]

you can't have guns without having an FPS interface.

Until they resolve this very basic roadblock, no MMO set in a time period past the age of gunpowder will ever be successful.

Hunters in WoW are in WoW. Not in a time period set past the age of gunpowder. My last post was made with the underlying assumption that everyone knew that.

[Lakov_Sanite]

technologically speaking wow is beyond gunpowder. Sort of a steampunk/ non steamish era, yes?

[Fordel]

My Paladin has a rocket launcher. If that helps you define it.

[Hutch]

technologically speaking wow is beyond gunpowder. Sort of a steampunk/ non steamish era, yes?

That is a fair point. Advanced Engineers can build flying machines, for example. (edit: and rocket launchers). Gnomes ride on mechanical birds.

If we refer back to the Original Text (i.e. Charlie Mopps post in this thread), the point is that Sci Fi MMOs aren't successful because everyone has guns, and you can't have guns without an FPS interface.

I think it's fair to say that WoW isn't Sci Fi. Or more precisely, that WoW is a swords and sorcery fantasy setting with some gnomish machinery, goblinish explosives, and dimension-hopping goat people mixed in.

So the success of WoW and the popularity of its gun-wielding hunters is not evidence for or against the point put forth by Charlie Mopps.

[Oban]

Not in a time period set past the age of gunpowder. My last post was made with the underlying assumption that everyone knew that.

[Lantyssa]

Guns have nothing to do with it.

The failure of Sci-Fi MMOs to date has been because they have all been shite.

[Oban]

I think it's fair to say that WoW isn't Sci Fi. Or more precisely, that WoW is a swords and sorcery fantasy setting with some gnomish machinery, goblinish explosives, and dimension-hopping goat people mixed in.

So the success of WoW and the popularity of its gun-wielding hunters is not evidence for or against the point put forth by Charlie Mopps.

Starcraft has protoss infantry, zerg melee, magic using archons, and so on and so forth... The lore supports an MMO naturally.

[Trouble]

The failure of Sci-Fi MMOs to date has been because they have all been shite.

[Oban]

The failure of Sci-Fi MMOs to date has been because they have all been shite.

This, yes.

[eldaec]

Not shite : Planetside, EVE, CoX
Debatable : Neocron, AO
Shite : Tabula Rasa, SWG, E&B, Hellgate

Sci-fi has a better run rate than fantasy.

[Merusk]

Not shite : Planetside, EVE, CoX
Debatable : Neocron, AO
Shite : Tabula Rasa, SWG, E&B, Hellgate

Sci-fi has a better run rate than fantasy.

I wouldn't count CoX as Sci-Fi without also calling it fantasy.  Superheros are of both genres and if you REALLY forced someone on it, they'd probably call it fantasy before it was ever speculative sci-fi in most cases.   I wouldn't even approach calling Hellgate sci-fi at all.

Planetside had the hax problems previously mentioned.  And still does to a very large degree.

EvE is debatable on the Shite part.  Yes, you love it but there's plenty who still see it as "spreadsheets in space" and therefore shite because it lacks action 99% of the time.  Yes, that 1% can be awesome - IF - you have the right connections.  Otherwise? Meh.  It's got its niche, but that's all it's got and isn't really a great template for a breakthrough Sci-Fi game.

There hasn't been a completely agreeable non-shite MMO with a sci-fi theme.  I also think that it's bull to say that one HAS to be an FPS to even approach the sci-fi genre. 

I expect we'll see Starcraft-as-diku out of this when it is announced.

[eldaec]

There hasn't been a completely agreeable non-shite MMO with a sci-fi theme. 

But by the standards you describe, this is also true.

[Teleku]

What standards would those be?  All I saw was Hax problems and spreadsheet problems.  Are you saying that every MMO suffers from one of those two?

[Ratman_tf]

Guns have nothing to do with it.

The failure of Sci-Fi MMOs to date has been because they have all been shite.

To various degrees. Eve has it's following, even here at crusty ole F13.net. And I enjoyed SWG before they broke it. I even played a lot of Anarchy Online.

But yeah, their failures (real or percieved) have been in other areas not related to how you pop your pop-gun.

That was not a masturbation metaphor.

Honest.

[tmp]

3. Profit!

Moneyhats Online..?

[Ratman_tf]

3. Profit!

Moneyhats Online..?

If Blizz makes Starcraft Universe (or whatever the fuck they call it) and makes it Just Like WoW, but starts out of the gate with the kind of gameplay that WoW has evolved into (battlefields, etc...) I bet it will be a smash success and thick headed developers out there will start crying about how Blizzard cheats at Real Life game development, because everyone knows that NO ONE can make a big hit sci-fi MMORPG...

And Blizz employees will Level Up from Moneyhats to Moneysuits.

[Morfiend]

I can honestly say I would be more excited about a Starcraft MMO than almost any other game (Except maybe a Warhammer 40k MMO done by Blizzard).

Going back to the Zerg question. I dont think a little herd would work well. One of the major things people like about MMOs is the progression of the characters and GEAR. I think it would be more likely that we would see players as Hydralisks, with one of their talent trees centering around summoning. Or players would start as a Zergling, and at specific levels 10, 20, 30, etc. or when placing specific talent points they would evolve in to a newer form of Zerg. I think that would be pretty cool. All Zerg starting as the same "Class" and having a HUGE selection of talents, and having to pick and choose and having those choices effect their look, and also being able to add gear, like armor or robes or some shit with the right mutations.

[Lakov_Sanite]

I can honestly say I would be more excited about a Starcraft MMO than almost any other game (Except maybe a Warhammer 40k MMO done by Blizzard).

Going back to the Zerg question. I dont think a little herd would work well. One of the major things people like about MMOs is the progression of the characters and GEAR. I think it would be more likely that we would see players as Hydralisks, with one of their talent trees centering around summoning. Or players would start as a Zergling, and at specific levels 10, 20, 30, etc. or when placing specific talent points they would evolve in to a newer form of Zerg. I think that would be pretty cool. All Zerg starting as the same "Class" and having a HUGE selection of talents, and having to pick and choose and having those choices effect their look, and also being able to add gear, like armor or robes or some shit with the right mutations.

what would be awesome is that they could have race specific gear, in such that zerg would never get armor but they would get mutations, addons, extra eyes etc.

[lamaros]

Didn't we do this thread before?

I remember saying at the time that it's going to be a SC MMO because it just makes sense to do it at the same time as SC2 for a whole bunch of reasons.

Only makes more sense now, seeing how D3 just got announced

Also:

I'm pretty dumb.

Yeah no shit.

[Nija]

The failure of sci-fi MMOs, specifically space games, (Eve excluded - that's for excel professionals) is the Serek Dmart Syndrome.

You can quickly get carried away with space games to the point that you'd never, ever finish development. It's just the nature of space games.

Let's say you want to build on Allegiance. I know that's not mass multiplayer, but you've got a good game to build on.

So you've already got ships that can be huge, and you have turrets in these ships that can be manned by other players. This is pretty awesome. So you'd have a twitch-based game where you could have a "raid group" essentially be on one big ship. A couple guys on turrets, a couple guys in the bay getting ready to launch fighters, a guy doing logistics, and someone flying the damn thing itself. Do you see where I'm going with this?

You could have boarding parties. Disable the ship, dock, create an atmosphere, break out the plasma cutter and cut that bitch open. The FPS "boarding" type action begins now, and your crew starts to fight the other crew in a FPS game. Or it could be like X-COM if you wanted to present another gameplay style while still being in the same universe.

Or you could be landing on a planet to invade it. Or a space station. Or you're a trader and blah blah blah blah.

Space is really the final frontier. Everything will always be Serek Dmart'ed until Blizzard throws $2B at every programmer in Asia to work on a game in concentration camp(s) for a decade.

...and a final (3rd) Serek Dmart to summon the beast.

[Bzalthek]

The gun debate hinges on something I don't think has been brought up.  The destructiveness of the weapon.  The more destructive the weapon (as in how much damage it will do to a player) the more a FPS system is needed.  In WoW, a gun is essentially nothing more than a bow with a different graphic and audio file.  FPS is not needed to meld guns into the Warcraft world.  Now, in a Sci-Fi world, you would expect getting your noggin impacted by an ultra-high-velocity projectile to be insta kill and FPS becomes more of a necessity.

[Oban]

No... in a Starcraft world I would expect my protoss shield to be depleted, my terran armour to take damage or my zerg shell to be slightly dented.

[Speedbrusher]

It would be interesting to see if there'd be any player controlled spaceships - StarCraft is ground-based as it is, but it might work allowing players  to fly about Elite-style between the planets and then upon arriving, having the option to switch to ground play, which essentially could make the planets the instanced battlegrounds. (whether instancing is good or not, should be left to another day)

I really don't see what the big deal is with regards to guns in space; select a target and your space marine will keep shooting his bolter at them until they die or you select a different target... Just like WoW's hunter's auto-fire.

And the class breakdown is also fairly simple, if you consider all three realms to have ranged- and melee classes:

*	Terran	Protoss	Zerg
Melee DPS	Firebat	Zealot	Zergling
Ranged DPS	Marine	Dragoon	Hydralisk
Heavy DPS	Siege Tank	Reaver	Ultralisk
Stealthy	Scout	Dark Templar	lurkers?

etc...

Also, i'd like to second the idea of having the zergling as a petclass, without an increasing amount of minions ... then the talent trees could branch into more minions, better damage/armor and buffs like movement speed, burrow, etc

oh... and dropships! gotta have those - could even be some sort of "community mounts", where your buddies could tag along for the ride (like the player controlled boats in DAOC's TOA, but flying!)

Anyway, it seems i'm going into Serek Dmart mode as well, so i'll leave it at this.

[Bzalthek]

No... in a Starcraft world I would expect my protoss shield to be depleted, my terran armour to take damage or my zerg shell to be slightly dented.

Good point.  A reworking of the hp dynamics would probably solve a lot of problems, even incorporating melee/ranged in a sci-fi world.  A Halo system might be interesting; an overall shield regeneration system overlaying a static health limit.

[lamaros]

I am also dumb.

Duly noted.

[Ratman_tf]

No... in a Starcraft world I would expect my protoss shield to be depleted, my terran armour to take damage or my zerg shell to be slightly dented.

Yup, and conversley, I wouldn't expect that a Gnome could survive having a 6 foot blade stabbed repeatatley into his forehead, instead of taking X hit points of damage and running off with my goddamn flag again...

But that's the nature of the typical RPG beast, guns or swords or whatever.

[Oban]

Clearly you have no idea what chemicals go in to pink hair dye.

[Merusk]

I will posit that the new vehicle mechanics announced for the PvP zone in WotLK are a testbed for vehicle ideas in SC:O.

If you don't know what I'm talking about, check here

[Adam Tiler]

The reason Sci-Fi mmos fail is pretty simple. Sci-Fi mmos have guns... you can't have guns without having an FPS interface. FPS interfaces are notoriously easy to hack. Any MMO that has an exploitable targeting system is going to fail almost instantly. At least with a standard FPS game, if some dude shows up with his exploit, you can switch servers. Not so in an mmo.

SciFi MMO without FPS = FAIL (see Tabula Rasa, Anarchy Online, etc...)
SciFi MMO with Exploitable targeting system = Fail (see every FPS game on the market right now)

Until they resolve this very basic roadblock, no MMO set in a time period past the age of gunpowder will ever be successful.
If they ever do resolve this problem, a Battlefield 2142 type MMO would be wildly successful imo.

EVE Online.

[schild]

Eve is a political game masquerading as sci-fi.

It might as well be Battlestar Galactica.

[Jayce]

They had a similar problem with an undead race in Warcraft.  So in the 3.5th Warcraft RTS they introduced sentient undead, right before releasing the lore for their new MMOG, with playable undead.

Now, there's going to be a new Starcraft RTS with new lore right before they release the lore for their new MMOG, with playable Zerg.

Connect the dots?

So you're saying that WOW 2 will be an MMORTS?

I guess I really do have to connect the dots.

Problem: unplayable race due to lore problems. 

Case in point: undead in Warcraft.  No free will.  Answer: release an expansion to the RTS with free-willed undead.  Release MMOG where player can be free-willed undead.

Speculation: Zerg in Starcraft Online.  Hive mind.  Answer: release Starcraft 2 with some story element introducing free-willed individual Zerg in or apart from the Swarm.  Release MMOG where players can play Zerg.


On the other topic, Sturgeon's law applies here.  99% of sci-fi MMOGs are crap.  99% of fantasy MMOGs are crap too, or maybe only 98% just because there have been so many that you can avoid some traps just by being smart enough to continue to draw breath.

[UnSub]

This is Blizzard. If they wanted to say "All Zerg are now sentient and ride unicorns" all they'd need to do would be release a video or a few chapters of text saying so. No-one who counts really cares about the minutae of Starcraft lore.

Regarding the use of guns in a sci-fi MMO - has anyone hacked TR to pull off some of the things that occurred in early FPSs like Doom or Quake e.g. auto aiming, shooting through walls, etc? To my knowledge no-one has (or no-one has cared enough to). I suspect there are better protections for FPS-style games now that look to block such hacks.

Final point - the issue ISN'T sci-fi guns can't be done well in a MMO, it's that balancing sci-fi guns with melee combat always ends up with both things looking funny - either melee is completely useless or melee is overpowered compared to range. Fantasy is all about sword fights, so we better accept ranged weapons being less effective.

[Kageru]

I think there's a number of problems with a sci-fi MMORPG and it will be fascinating to see how blizzard addresses them. I certainly have enough respect for Rob Pardo to believe he'll be able to come up with something that works. The main problem is that fantasy encourages action on a small scale (eg. a dungeon) with close locality and archetypes that inherently express synergistic co-operation. If someone says "priest" or "wizard" you know they are different from "plate armored warrior". In sci-fi it is expected that the scale is bigger (cities, planets, battlefields) and the tools (guns, comms, mobility) encourage people to work as largely independent units. Fantasy readily supports the idea of raid targets (that dragon is too mighty for one man!) whereas sci-fi allows one player to control the most powerful units that exist (tanks, battlecruisers, nukes... whatever). Also in a sci-fi environment gear is manufactured, there's less space for finding drastically superior items in moldy old chests. How do you come up with progressive challenges or tactics for such an environment? Tabula-Rasa didn't even come close to having an answer to that one, and it's much more "low-tech" than a starcraft world would be.

The other is that magic is just such a great tool for creative license. Wave your hands and heal a warriors wounds? No problem, a fantasy stable. You sling bacta grenades that instantly heal the soldier... a bit harder.

I fully expect blizzard to come out with two MMO's. One will be in the short term and in a different world for WoW, so most likely starcraft. The other will be a more long term project for a WoW replacement (circa 2-4 years from now) which will either be WoW2 (maybe with WC4 some time before?), Diablo or a new IP.

[schild]

http://f13.net/index.php?itemid=167

[photek]

http://f13.net/index.php?itemid=167

Right after that they also denied that statement.

UPDATE: This morning, Blizzard officially responded to last night's reports: "No, that rumor is not true in regard to Blizzard. We believe that the rumor circulating about this subject is based on a misinterpretation of information provided to industry analysts. We do not currently have any MMO development plans beyond the upcoming expansion for World of Warcraft, and furthermore, we don't have any intentions to focus on only one genre or platform with our future games."

It's better than a "we don't comment on rumors and speculation," denial, that's for sure. Their comments put us firmly back in a "what's next for Blizzard?" state of mind, which in the game industry is right where publishers and developers want gamers to be.

After this SC2 and D3 has been announced. Maybe after these they can actually make that statement, but I still think they will try to dominate each marked with their IPs, Warcraft for MMOs, Starcraft for RTS, Diablo3 for awesome.