LoTR slashes price.

[tmp]

Read the rest of the thread?

I did; it still has nothing to do with what you originally wrote and i replied to. And if LotRO is somehow the only game in your mind where you get to kill the same mob models with different skins across the numerous levels, then i'm pretty much at loss for words.

[cevik]

Read the rest of the thread?

I did; it still has nothing to do with what you originally wrote and i replied to. And if LotRO is somehow the only game in your mind where you get to kill the same mob models with different skins across the numerous levels, then i'm pretty much at loss for words.

It's pretty much the only game of it's class where you basically enjoy the same content at level 28 (where I admittedly quit.. well.. not so much quit as realized I hadn't bothered to log on in a month or two and I probably should stop paying for it) as you do at level 1.

Not nearly the same content.  The same content.

Which is my point, everything else at least goes so far as to provide some form of variety to what you do.  Sure you're still killing 10 foozles at level 1 and level 70, but at least they are different styles of foozles in different environments.

LotRO is unforgivable in the fact that you are killing the exact same foozles with the same names and same textures and in the same barren, rocky environment with a couple of stands of trees thrown in at level 1 as you are at level 28.  The difference between the most wildly separated and distant zones that I was able to explore when I was 3/4 of the way through the game was so minuscule that every other game makes a mockery of it by 1/4 of the way in.

[Comstar]

The first 20 levels of LOTR were quite good, I enjoyed exploring the old forest and parts prior to that.

Around 23 I was in the western Lost lands and all my quests seem to need a group, and it was hard for some reason to find out...maybe because the last lands are so...empty. Of anything. Oh sure Weathertop is nice, and I was excited to explore it...and found more empty ruins. Oh which I had seen quite enough already.

[Tarami]

Cevik, the problem is that you're stating it as if it was absolutely true, which it isn't. You must have glossed over quite a number of smaller areas to come to that conclusion. Old Forest, Barrow-downs, Agamaur/Circle of Blood, Midgewater Marshes, Harloeg, Nan Wathren, Fields of Fornost, all have rather unique looks and that's just up to about level 25. Sure, they aren't pink and orange, but:

Not nearly the same content.  The same content.

That's a stretch by any definition. I could probably name 15 types of mobs you get to kill in those 25 levels as well. I believe your demands for variation are just through the roof and biased when it comes to this game. I don't see how Elwynn/Redridge/Westfall (or Durotar, Barrens?) differ SO much from the same starter zones in LotRO.

Edit: Westfall, not Westlands.

[Phred]

LotRO is unforgivable in the fact that you are killing the exact same foozles with the same names and same textures and in the same barren, rocky environment with a couple of stands of trees thrown in at level 1 as you are at level 28.  The difference between the most wildly separated and distant zones that I was able to explore when I was 3/4 of the way through the game was so minuscule that every other game makes a mockery of it by 1/4 of the way in.

Sounds like you missed North Downs, where they brought Wights and hordes of orcs and goblins onto the scene. The wights were kind of cool but I guess with the Lone Lands we'd already seen orcs and goblins.

Sadly, a lot of the progression content for LoTR seems to have been designed for groups, which left soloers with the worst selection of mobs to kill possible. There were trolls in nw Lone Lands, barbarians, and an instance with walking trees and a ton of undead but if you soloed you never saw it or knew it even existed probably. You couldn't even dream about checking out the instance entrance thanks to the shit ton of signature mobs outside.

I found group play was the most fun I'd found since EQ in LoTR but it's sure amazing that in a post-WoW world they'd hide so much away behind the wall like that.

[Phred]

Cevik, the problem is that you're stating it as if it was absolutely true, which it isn't. You must have glossed over quite a number of smaller areas to come to that conclusion. Old Forest, Barrow-downs, Agamaur/Circle of Blood, Midgewater Marshes, Harloeg, Nan Wathren, Fields of Fornost, all have rather unique looks and that's just up to about level 25. Sure, they aren't pink and orange, but:

More importantly, they aren't soloable either

[cevik]

That's a stretch by any definition. I could probably name 15 types of mobs you get to kill in those 25 levels as well. I believe your demands for variation are just through the roof and biased when it comes to this game. I don't see how Elwynn/Redridge/Westfall (or Durotar, Barrens?) differ SO much from the same starter zones in LotRO.

Edit: Westfall, not Westlands.

Sure, Durotar and the Barrens don't differ, but by the time you are 3/4 of the way through pre-TBC WoW you've seen:

Durotar, The Barrens, Stonetalon Mountains, Thousand Needles, Silverpine Forest, Hillsbrad Foothills, Desolace, Dustwallow Marsh and Strangelthorn Vale.

You'll still have The Hinterlands, Azshara, Felwood Ungoro Crater and a host of other places ahead of you.

And that doesn't include any of the dungeons.

Surely you can see the difference in variety in WoW vs. LotRO?

And I'm not really biased, I don't hate turbine or have any desire for the game to fail.  I just stopped playing it because I was bored, I knew I was going to log on and see the same stuff and kill the same things again, nothing really new.  Perhaps if I was more of a group player I would have seen some amazing variety in the game, so perhaps it's my fault.  But again someone asked why LotRO wasn't a smashing success and I'm simply trying to explain my experience as to why (and the 4 people I talked into tagging along to try the game).

[tmp]

LotRO is unforgivable in the fact that you are killing the exact same foozles with the same names and same textures and in the same barren, rocky environment with a couple of stands of trees thrown in at level 1 as you are at level 28.  The difference between the most wildly separated and distant zones that I was able to explore when I was 3/4 of the way through the game was so minuscule that every other game makes a mockery of it by 1/4 of the way in.

I's sorry, but again this is just bull. Early levels of the game have you start either in Shire, Bree-land or that whatever it's called elf zone, neither of them being "barren, rocky environment". So no, this is quite certainly not the experience 'from level 1 to 28' And if the difference between lush staring lands, the swamps that cover parts of these areas, the barren lone-lands, the forests in Trollshaws, snowy mountains either past the Trollshaws or in the starting dwarf zones.. are "minuscule" to you then again, i don't know what to say. If difference between deserts and snow-covered mountains and forests are just "minuscule" then by this logic WoW is all the same also... because i haven't experienced any other kind of environment but these for the first half of game (1-25 or so)

Also, the names and textures on foozles do change in this game just like any other. Speaking of these others, that's a little reminder: http://www.wowguru.com/db/families/ Yeah, you totally don't kill bears and wolves and boars and spiders and other generic shit every 10 levels in any other MMO...

[tmp]

Sure, Durotar and the Barrens don't differ, but by the time you are 3/4 of the way through pre-TBC WoW you've seen:

Durotar, The Barrens, Stonetalon Mountains, Thousand Needles, Silverpine Forest, Hillsbrad Foothills, Desolace, Dustwallow Marsh and Strangelthorn Vale.

You'll still have The Hinterlands, Azshara, Felwood Ungoro Crater and a host of other places ahead of you.

And that doesn't include any of the dungeons.

Surely you can see the difference in variety in WoW vs. LotRO?

No. How is seeing barrens, mountains, forests, foothills, marshes and valleys in WoW different and more varied than seeing barrens, mountains, forests, foothills, marshes and valleys in LotRO? And yeah, you're not including the dungeons so i'm also not including the instances.

[cevik]

No. How is seeing barrens, mountains, forests, foothills, marshes and valleys in WoW different and more varied than seeing barrens, mountains, forests, foothills, marshes and valleys in LotRO?

Musta been my video card then, because I just didn't see that much difference between:

The Lone Lands:  http://litg.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/screenshot00028.jpg
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_r5JtPh5GgCg/Rm07gPmRhVI/AAAAAAAAD8I/2QbvGmL7G-Q/ScreenShot00000.jpg
And The Shire:  http://www.massively.com/media/2007/12/os1214.jpg

Which were geographically the furthest things apart I was able to run through in the first 25 levels.

Bree land: http://lotro.tentonhammer.com/files/gallery/albums/album12/Adso_s_Camp.jpg was in between, and I really don't see much difference there either.

Certainly nothing akin to the difference between silverpine forest: http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj309/skythe1/WoWScrnShot_032808_210405S.jpg

And the barrens:  http://www.alphaplusguild.org/gallery/d/302-2/Entreri+joins+the+Barrens+outriders.jpg

Which are things you can see at the lowest levels of WoW.

Maybe I'm just crazy.

EDIT:  Just for the record, I don't currently have the game installed so I got all those pictures by GISing LotRO and the zone names.

[tmp]

Musta been my video card then, because I just didn't see that much difference between:

The Lone Lands:  http://litg.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/screenshot00028.jpg
And The Shire:  http://www.massively.com/media/2007/12/os1214.jpg

The Lone Lands: http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1247/1358777962_8562172c1e_o.jpg
and The Shire: http://kittenslitter.files.wordpress.com/2007/02/lotro-the-shire.jpg

yes, absolutely no difference.

This is marsh in the middle of Bree area: http://lotro.tentonhammer.com/files/gallery/albums/album12/Resource_Gathering_in_the_Midgewater_Marshes.jpg Clearly identical in every aspect to these other two zones.

Certainly nothing akin to the difference between silverpine forest: http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj309/skythe1/WoWScrnShot_032808_210405S.jpg

And the barrens:  http://www.alphaplusguild.org/gallery/d/302-2/Entreri+joins+the+Barrens+outriders.jpg

Which are things you can see at the lowest levels of WoW.

Old Forest in LotRO: http://picasaweb.google.com/lacour2/LOTROScenicViews/photo#5071230196986775058

compare it to the Lone Lands screenshot i referenced earlier. Is the difference really "nothing akin" like between these barrens and forest screenshots of WoW, in your eyes?

oh and to round out the newbie experience, this is the dwarf/elf starting area: http://62.25.101.224/images/microsites/LOTRO/eredLuin_treesa_450.jpg
Elves are then moved here: http://members.arstechnica.com/x/rhaegar/EredLuin03.jpg when they hit level 5 or so.

these screenshots are also the google results from 1st or 2nd results page btw.

[cevik]

This is marsh in the middle of Bree area: http://lotro.tentonhammer.com/files/gallery/albums/album12/Resource_Gathering_in_the_Midgewater_Marshes.jpg Clearly identical in every aspect to these other two zones.

The image you chose was nothing but fog, here are better images of the midgewater marshes:

http://lotro.tentonhammer.com/files/gallery/albums/album12/The_Distant_Marshes.jpg
http://lotro.allakhazam.com/mediabox/MediaBoxMarch507.jpg
http://bp2.blogger.com/_yIfSctBgccs/Rzx7AG-EWjI/AAAAAAAAAmQ/eNgqJnM_w98/s1600-h/WyndolynMarshes.jpg

So as you can see, when you choose a picture that you know, actually looks like the marsh, it pretty much looks the same as everything else.

You could probably make the argument that things in the lone lands are a slightly browner shade of greenish brown than things in the shire, otherwise I just don't see a difference:

Lone Lands: http://lh5.ggpht.com/_amYwVc-CNw8/RjysowGd-XI/AAAAAAAAAJs/xAMH8LO5_aM/ScreenShot00030.jpg
The Shire: http://riversidemod.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/dermid_sits.jpg

[tmp]

The image you chose was nothing but fog

Yes, it is what the marsh looks like when your character is actually in that area. THe game engine isn't ideal and so the fog isn't applied when viewing things from distance, like in the screenshots you cite. Still, i don't think you can argue that for a player who actually is in that area the visuals and the feel they provide are much different than what they experience elsewhere?

So as you can see, when you choose a picture that you know, actually looks like the marsh, it pretty much looks the same as everything else.

... are you for real at this point? How exactly does the marsh look like a forest, or desert plains or snowy mountains?

You could probably make the argument that things in the lone lands are a slightly browner shade of greenish brown than things in the shire, otherwise I just don't see a difference:

What about the screenshots i provided instead, the ones that show something more than camera zoomed on single character, or the game with all detail sliders pulled to minimum by the looks of it. Do these too look to you like just things that have slightly different shade of brown or green on them? And for this matter and using your own logic -- how is that forest and barrens screenshots you've shown any different from each other, except one is more brown and one is more yellow? Both have some trees, ground and a path through. Tell me, what's so contrasting about them?

[Tarami]

Shire? Lone-lands? Jesus. This is just trolling.

[cevik]

How exactly does the marsh look like a forest, or desert plains or snowy mountains?

You'd have to ask Turbine that question, I guess. ;)

EDIT:  I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.  I canceled my account because everything looked the same, if those pictures look different to you, gratz on the special eyes I guess.. ;)

[Azazel]

They should make it $100 for a lifetime sub.

That'd probably make me sign up, despte not having played since Beta.

[KyanMehwulfe]

Gotta agree with Tmp. If LotRO has one strength, it's the landscaping and world environment. Absolutely gorgeous world with some really awesome art detail. Only MMO on par wit WoW's world art imo. Not quite as much variety, but still a decent amount with real good terrain flow, flavour-adding detail (e.g. the way a road detours around a stream), and atmosphere (weather; subtle blur in trees or leaves; reflection or lighting; etc).

Lots of world shots in here if folks need examples:
http://www3.telus.net/public/mehwulfe/kyan/lotro/

The Shire, Evendim, and the Trollshaws are especially superb.

[Baldrake]

What kind of graphics card do you have, Kyan? I never saw terrains like that. What I did see was blurry-ass DAoC-style terrains like the ones Cevik posted. I guess my 8600 GT wasn't up to displaying the good stuff?

[tmp]

What kind of graphics card do you have, Kyan? I never saw terrains like that. What I did see was blurry-ass DAoC-style terrains like the ones Cevik posted. I guess my 8600 GT wasn't up to displaying the good stuff?

I've been getting this kind of graphics like on Kyan's screens with a cheap-ass 7600 gt card. It's enough to handle all advanced gfx sliders at high (and drawing distances at max) ... i'm guessing the blurry-ass effect would come as result of lower resolution textures, low quality texture filtering (anisotropic is pretty nice) and either short range or disabled frill and/or disabled distant imposters, as combination of these would leave you with blurry mess of mostly bare polygons.

[WindupAtheist]

In WoW I could fly from Ironforge to Booty Bay, then sail to Ratchet, and in the span of a few minutes I'll have gone from snowy mountains, to tropical jungle, to a savannah full of zebra and giraffes.  When you cover a lot of ground in WoW, it really feels like you're getting around.

[Tarami]

LotRO runs fine (30+ FPS) at "Very High" on a 6800GT. I'm cranking every single slider to max (incl. Ultra textures, 4x AA and 16x AF) on a 7800GTX and rarely get low framerates when just doing the usual soloing/grouping. Raiding is a bit harsh, but to expect.

[Slayerik]

I'm still going back to the music being the only innovative or even cool thing about LotRO. And my wife made it 20 levels, but that's about par for the course really.

Queued combat is bad. Title system was kinda interesting reason to grind, but meh....Graphics were pretty good, but nothing too special. To me, its just not the right setting for an MMORPG.

[Sir T]

Reading this, I'm wondering whether Lotro should have done a KOTOR and set itself in the time of the Silimerillion. One of the subtexts of the book is that magic is fading from the world, all the really nasty stuff is either dead, driven from the world or asleep and the world is turning to the time of man. In the time of the Silmarilion there was a lot more really really nasty stuff out there. Hell in one story Sauron changes shape into a vampire to get away from an Elf.

It would have given them a lot more license to play, but everyone would have been whining it wasn't the books.

[MahrinSkel]

It was never going to *be* the books, no matter what.  I think they would have done considerably better using the Second Age as a setting, when men were rare and magic was everywhere.  Not only more freedom creatively, but more of a sense of wonder in the players when you weren't competing directly against the movies.

--Dave

[Trippy]

It's like SWG all over again

[tmp]

I think they would have done considerably better using the Second Age as a setting, when men were rare and magic was everywhere.  Not only more freedom creatively, but more of a sense of wonder in the players when you weren't competing directly against the movies.

They'd hardly need the IP license for this kind of generic high fantasy setting, though... nor would there really be anything setting them apart from various spin-off worlds including already existing MMOs. KotOR might work because it's really first "thousands of magic-wielding Jedi everywhere" twist on regular Star Wars that's Jedi-sparse. But "thousand magic-wielding elves everywhere" that 2nd Age rendition would be? Not so much of 'never done before' concept...

[Azazel]

Reading this, I'm wondering whether Lotro should have done a KOTOR and set itself in the time of the Silimerilion. One of the subtexts of the book is that magic is fading from the world, all the really nasty stuff is either dead, driven from the world or asleep and the world is turning to the time of man. In the time of the Silmarilion there was a lot more really really nasty stuff out there. Hell in one story Sauron changes shape into a vampire to get away from an Elf.

It would have given them a lot more license to play, but everyone would have been whining it wasn't the books.

Wasn't this thing originally called "Middle-Earth Online"?

I think a few somewhat-successful films of recent years may have had a little to do with tying the licance more directly to the books. To get the casuals interested as well as the LARP and cape-wearing crowds in.

[tazelbain]

I had to get the trial because Turbine wouldn't take my money.

Even before level 10, I feel like I am trudging around.

[Soukyan]

Regarding the graphics debate between WoW and LotRO, it would probably be a good thing to remember that Tolkien described a world that was much like Earth, so the environments and the way Turbine presents them are going to be very similar to reality. While the game is fantasy, the world itself is constrained. In WoW, it's a different story. The books were written after the game was made. Blizzard has creative license to make some forest zones saturated with purple light (Teldrassil and Darkshore) all day long no matter what in order to make it look different from the green standard-ish looking Elwynn Forest. And then there are several zones saturated in yellow color, like the Barrens and Westfall. Then you've got a few jungle zones, and a couple marshes that are similar. Then you've got your red zones like Durotar and Thousand Needles and Redridge Mountains. Oh, and the white zones, Dun Morough and Winterspring.

I think WoW has a lot more creative license since they are making it up as they go, whereas LotRO must follow the lore they've licensed. It's a pity that the variance did not impress some, but I never found LotRO to be lacking in world beauty. Both games offered good immersion within the zones and offered a varied "feel". Points of interest around WoW are perhaps more interesting, but from a world building standpoint, it uses the same mountains and the same funneling in mountainous zones, albeit with slightly different colors and textures. Oh, and most of the trees are the same geometry and textures with color variances. Same goes for a lot of mobs.

Welcome to the world of game design and making your content stretch to fill a world. Whether there are larger zones that take longer to work through, or smaller more concentrated zones, both games have their merits. Since the argument of graphics is based upon opinion, there is no right or wrong here, but screenshots can be framed to support either arguement, as tmp showed swamps and marshes from within the zones, and cevik showed them from a distance to the actual swamp and marsh. LotRO and WoW both use the technique of adjusting lighting and atmosphere when characters enter a different type of zone, so... yada yada yada.

[Stormwaltz]

Wasn't this thing originally called "Middle-Earth Online"?

A holdover from when Sierra tried to make a Tolkien MMG. As I recall, the Sierra game was to be set in the Fourth Age, and included permadeath.

Unfortunately, Turbine doesn't have the rights to use the Silmarillion. They can use anything mentioned in The Hobbit and the main trilogy, but nothing beyond that. That constrains their ability to show canonical earlier periods.

[cevik]

Regarding the graphics debate between WoW and LotRO, it would probably be a good thing to remember that Tolkien described a world that was much like Earth, so the environments and the way Turbine presents them are going to be very similar to reality. While the game is fantasy, the world itself is constrained.

From my second post in the thread, the first in which I brought up the lack of variety in LotRO:

The developers seemed constrained to only use canon material, and thus there isn't much variety, in my most humble of opinions.

And I repeated it nearly every post.  I understand the problem, it just doesn't make it less of a problem! :)

[Soukyan]

Regarding the graphics debate between WoW and LotRO, it would probably be a good thing to remember that Tolkien described a world that was much like Earth, so the environments and the way Turbine presents them are going to be very similar to reality. While the game is fantasy, the world itself is constrained.

From my second post in the thread, the first in which I brought up the lack of variety in LotRO:

The developers seemed constrained to only use canon material, and thus there isn't much variety, in my most humble of opinions.

And I repeated it nearly every post.  I understand the problem, it just doesn't make it less of a problem! :)

*nod* My mistake for missing it. Was reading quickly through while at work. I was distracted. :)

[cevik]

as tmp showed swamps and marshes from within the zones, and cevik showed them from a distance to the actual swamp and marsh. LotRO and WoW both use the technique of adjusting lighting and atmosphere when characters enter a different type of zone, so... yada yada yada.

To be fair, two of my shots were from directly inside the swamp, one was from outside.

http://lotro.allakhazam.com/mediabox/MediaBoxMarch507.jpg
http://bp2.blogger.com/_yIfSctBgccs/Rzx7AG-EWjI/AAAAAAAAAmQ/eNgqJnM_w98/s1600-h/WyndolynMarshes.jpg

Both of those are from a guy standing in the marshes.

[Soukyan]

Fair enough, but from the ground texture and the water in the first one, I think atmospheric effects were turned off. The second one is definitely a good indicator though as I have been in that marsh before. Of course, it wasn't a "dark" marsh.


WoW has another thing going for it in that the graphics engine requires a lot lower system specs, and they make very judicious use of color and saturation to achieve the desired effects. I give their design team a lot of credit for their work on the atmosphere of the game.