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Author Topic: The Awful Fittings Thread  (Read 132558 times)
Phildo
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on: June 15, 2008, 09:24:16 AM

Inspired by the BB multispec thread!

Armor-tanking Drake

Ushra'Khan pilot decided to come rat deep in providence and did it wrong.  Those WCS in his cargo hold might have saved his ass, too.
Endie
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Reply #1 on: June 15, 2008, 12:35:41 PM

This one was funny.

http://killboard.goonfleet.com/km/223325/fitting#items

Very clear lesson: don't rush to the hull unless you can fit the fittings too.

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"What else would one expect of Scottish sociopaths sipping their single malt Glenlivit [sic]?" Jack Thompson
Phildo
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Reply #2 on: June 15, 2008, 12:45:17 PM

WTF, 3 railguns on a vaga?
Endie
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Reply #3 on: June 15, 2008, 12:52:50 PM

WTF, 3 railguns on a vaga?

I was on six kills in that one and a half minute fight, and three of them were serious candidates for this thread.

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"What else would one expect of Scottish sociopaths sipping their single malt Glenlivit [sic]?" Jack Thompson
MahrinSkel
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When she crossed over, she was just a ship. But when she came back... she was bullshit!


Reply #4 on: June 15, 2008, 12:57:06 PM

That almost seems like a desperation fit, trying to make a ship out of hangar scrapings.  T1 guns (and the wrong kind) in the highs with T2 on the mids and lows is a classic sign of a logistical breakdown.  Roadkill got their back to the wall?

--Dave

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bhodi
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No lie.


Reply #5 on: June 15, 2008, 01:01:39 PM

That almost seems like a desperation fit, trying to make a ship out of hangar scrapings.  T1 guns (and the wrong kind) in the highs with T2 on the mids and lows is a classic sign of a logistical breakdown.  Roadkill got their back to the wall?
You could say that. We busted their jumpbridge so now they have no route to empire or refitting. We've taken 3 major systems from them and are about to get a foodhold in a 4th.

If we get this foodhold tonight, it's effectively over.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2008, 01:09:03 PM by bhodi »
Phildo
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Reply #6 on: June 15, 2008, 01:12:05 PM

WTF is a foodhold?
bhodi
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No lie.


Reply #7 on: June 15, 2008, 01:14:32 PM

WTF is a foodhold?
They have a PoS in every moon in the system; we attacked them on friday night and one of the PoSes comes out of reinforced in about 10 minutes - If we destroy that, and put our own up, then we have a safe place to stage our capitals and our titan(s) to destroy the other PoSes in the system. Since the cynojammer gets incapped and repaired, incapped and repaired, being able to log out capitals somewhere is pretty critical to taking a system as we can't reliably bridge them in.

Not to mention, refocusing their assault on a (soon to be heavily defended) friendly PoS instead of trying to take back or harass other systems. There are a lot of other reasons, but it boils down to the first step in taking a well defended system is to get a foothold PoS in it.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2008, 01:17:37 PM by bhodi »
Endie
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Reply #8 on: June 15, 2008, 01:40:16 PM

WTF is a foodhold?
They have a PoS in every moon in the system; we attacked them on friday night and one of the PoSes comes out of reinforced in about 10 minutes - If we destroy that...

... and I would say that we will, since (live updates here) the tower is at 90% hull, we have 250 in system and 7 are hostile.  Their break-in attempt went south.  i wish they would jump in in force though :(

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bhodi
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No lie.


Reply #9 on: June 15, 2008, 02:15:07 PM

Endie
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Reply #10 on: June 15, 2008, 02:23:08 PM

That almost seems like a desperation fit, trying to make a ship out of hangar scrapings.  T1 guns (and the wrong kind) in the highs with T2 on the mids and lows is a classic sign of a logistical breakdown.  Roadkill got their back to the wall?

I thought that too at first, but I dunno: a couple of weeks ago he was already showing this nascent talent for fitting ships:

http://killboard.goonfleet.com/km/215294

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MahrinSkel
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When she crossed over, she was just a ship. But when she came back... she was bullshit!


Reply #11 on: June 15, 2008, 02:50:20 PM

On the other hand, people used to laugh at the huge amounts of T1 cruisers with T1 fittings FIX would lose when we were under siege (we were sometimes called "BoB's goons, but without the numbers").  What the failed to notice was that we *had* such a shitload of them present all the time, in an extended battle our people weren't going back to Empire to kit out, they were going to non-hostile stations and POS and grabbing "cannon fodder" ships, usually pre-fitted.  We had an explicit doctrine of only bringing out the good stuff for critical strategic fights, we cussed people out for bringing T2 fitted battleships on raid or counter-raid gangs, or fitting high-grade faction/officer stuff on anything but a capital (if you want to throw away money, we always need more POS in the reserves).  I personally had about 40 dictors and a dozen Covert Ops salted away at POS all over the region.  I lost 10 dictors at the second Battle of the Egg in ED-, I literally never got more than 2 bubbles off per ship but between me and the other guy who had stockpiled dictors we had bubbles on every assault.  I lost a half-billion isk worth of coverts on another day, when I was trying to slow down a reinforcement fleet by presenting them with a target.

If the odds aren't good, don't reinforce failure and throw away strength that might be decisive later.  That being said, although a lot of the "Fortress Querious" doctrine got copied, Roadkill never was a quick study.

--Dave

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Sparky
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Reply #12 on: June 16, 2008, 05:32:06 AM

You can't beat BRUCE for institutionalised bad fittings.  They had a reimbursement system for PVP losses but you'd only get cash if you used pre-approved setups.  Unfortunately whoever designed the standard fits wasn't very good so you'd have long range fleets BS fleets that couldn't hit past 140Km and so forth.  Everyone who actually PVPed knew these setups were terrible but they wanted reimbursements anyway so you'd have fail fleet after fail fleet getting wiped out with ease and everyone getting progressively more pissed off.  Through sheer inertia I guess they never started using decent fits.

That's a big part of why they got kicked out of Fountain so easily.
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Reply #13 on: June 16, 2008, 05:56:32 AM

Yeah, when the PL guys (and primarily girl) started leaking the Bruce "mark three" battleship fits to us it became horribly apparent why they were in a death spiral.  Even for our (Bat/AM's) BRUCE pos-killing op I was able to ask for fits that would let us pick them off even if they engaged with superior numbers, especially since I knew where to set up a ton of bookmarks in advance, inside our range but beyond theirs.

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Jayce
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Reply #14 on: June 17, 2008, 01:21:00 PM

Noticed this one on Dwindlehop's blog:   http://www.blackguardcoalition.org/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=691

What a weird fitting... I bet he could spin on a dime, but instead of a MWD he has a named afterburner? And he was carrying a lot of loot in that tissue paper Rifter.

Witty banter not included.
Goumindong
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Reply #15 on: June 17, 2008, 02:06:13 PM

  What the failed to notice was that we *had* such a shitload of them present all the time, in an extended battle our people weren't going back to Empire to kit out, they were going to non-hostile stations and POS and grabbing "cannon fodder" ships, usually pre-fitted

You could have refined them and put the minerals to good use, like buying t2 fit battleships. Having cheap replacement ships is all fine and good, but you will lose more isk by keeping your gang using lower quality gear over the course of a number of engagements than you will by fitting quality gear. You lose it in potential profits against gangs you cannot kill, and the lost friendly and hostile wrecks you will not have access to.

Re: Bruce MK3.

The problem was not bruce fitting 140km snipers. 140km is plenty of sniping range, if you are doing the dictating and are moving around. It keeps an enemy fleet from warping in on you to short range, but if they are longer range than you, you can still warp in to your optimal on them.

The problem was that Bruce didn't have any snipers, they had 70-100km remote rep battleship gangs with no to few damage mods and 100k+ EHP. Remote rep just doesn't work like that. The only RR ships that should be getting close to those numbers are Geddons, Domis, and Phoons(drones, pulse lasers, and drones/cruise missiles respectively) and even they are usually shy of the mark. Yea, range is very important, but you just don't have the resources to tackle anything out there and when you do its either not going to do you any good because its a sniper gang setting up a warp in, or its a nano-gang kiting your tacklers and killing them.

If you warped a BS sniping gang right on top of them they did alright. If you warped a proper RR BS gang on top of them they got slaughtered. If you weren't on top of them you could kite their tacklers and kill stuff that wandered away from the RR blob
MahrinSkel
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When she crossed over, she was just a ship. But when she came back... she was bullshit!


Reply #16 on: June 17, 2008, 04:21:36 PM

  What the failed to notice was that we *had* such a shitload of them present all the time, in an extended battle our people weren't going back to Empire to kit out, they were going to non-hostile stations and POS and grabbing "cannon fodder" ships, usually pre-fitted

You could have refined them and put the minerals to good use, like buying t2 fit battleships. Having cheap replacement ships is all fine and good, but you will lose more isk by keeping your gang using lower quality gear over the course of a number of engagements than you will by fitting quality gear. You lose it in potential profits against gangs you cannot kill, and the lost friendly and hostile wrecks you will not have access to.
A T1 support cruiser you have in the battle is infinitely more firepower than a T2 sniping BS you don't because the pilot is broke, or back in Empire fitting.  The vast majority of PvP encounters have little strategic significance, if you can force the enemy to behave like they're facing hostiles, and bleed them at 3 to 1 or more on actual isk loss, and you can keep that up for months, you can stand off almost any invasion.  But you need to preserve your high priced ships for when it counts.

Yes, there's no substitute for range in a sniping BS, and you need a useful minimum range for "long lance" tactics.  But for that, you need to have them available.  Beyond that, in a sustained battle (6 hours or more), the first side to run out of reinforcements has to leave the field, and we never ran out of reinforcements.  Over the course of a long campaign, the first side to run out of money loses, and that's not just POS and other major strategic supplies, but the individual wallets of the pilots.  Invasions against FIX always went the same way: In the small battles, we got our butts kicked at first on kill rates while coming out hugely ahead on isk (even after factoring for loot, because our wrecks weren't worth much).  But as things went on, as the enemy started running out of funds and either showing up in lower-grade ships or going home to rat and earn isk, we did successively better.  And through the whole process, when we needed top-tier ships for a decisive battle, we put out the call and we got them, frequently inflicting huge defeats because the enemy had come to underestimate our capabilities based on our small-gang performance.

If you don't try to get people to hold back on their isk commitment, they'll sap their own ability to continue, and you'll be reduced to bitching about how everyone's fit sucks, and you aren't getting enough sniper BS when you really need them, because people simply won't have it to give.  On offensives, you want quick resolution, on defense you want to wear the enemy down while avoiding a resolution, then take the counter-offensive with the capability you banked.

--Dave

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Endie
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Reply #17 on: June 18, 2008, 12:25:33 AM

Gou, Fix fought a series of defensive campaigns and survived all but the last.  We've fought only one since we started fighting LV, against Bob at the Detorid border.  We won that one, and although we won it for a variety of reasons we had relatively few T2 snipers throughout (although there were usually quite a few of us in Rokhs doing ghetto imitations, I admit).  Once we reached RISE, I remember the FC on one op - I'm pretty sure it was suas but it could have been scavok - saying "look at all those fuckin T2 snipers" when someone posted a killmail.

The fact is that the tactics Mahrin describes are the ones we succeeded with for a long time.  By way of contrast, last night 70-odd of us in euro time sat in a system with three hostiles and sieged dreads to reinforce their towers.  If we had had 80 smash in local, even if they were in cheap, disposable cruisers in the main, we'd never have entered siege mode and very possibly not hit the towers.  At the worst for Smash, they'd have neutralised our activity for a full timezone. If they had been aggressive with such a nominal capital investment, they could conceivably have done even more.

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MahrinSkel
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When she crossed over, she was just a ship. But when she came back... she was bullshit!


Reply #18 on: June 18, 2008, 01:01:49 AM

Gou, Fix fought a series of defensive campaigns and survived all but the last.
Everybody survives everything but the last one.  But yeah, for the two years I was with FIX, we were under defensive siege for 15 months.  And I mean *active* siege, with enemy fleets in our space almost every day.  Never outnumbered by less than 2 to 1 in raw membership, and sometimes as much as 5 to 1.
Quote
We've fought only one since we started fighting LV, against Bob at the Detorid border.  We won that one, and although we won it for a variety of reasons we had relatively few T2 snipers throughout (although there were usually quite a few of us in Rokhs doing ghetto imitations, I admit).  Once we reached RISE, I remember the FC on one op - I'm pretty sure it was suas but it could have been scavok - saying "look at all those fuckin T2 snipers" when someone posted a killmail.

The fact is that the tactics Mahrin describes are the ones we succeeded with for a long time.  By way of contrast, last night 70-odd of us in euro time sat in a system with three hostiles and sieged dreads to reinforce their towers.  If we had had 80 smash in local, even if they were in cheap, disposable cruisers in the main, we'd never have entered siege mode and very possibly not hit the towers.  At the worst for Smash, they'd have neutralised our activity for a full timezone. If they had been aggressive with such a nominal capital investment, they could conceivably have done even more.
That was our doctrine.  *Never* let the enemy get anything for free.  Just being there, even understrength, constricts his options and slows his offensive tempo.  And often, they get sloppy and you can jump on a sub-section of them or some stragglers.

Every single time we threw an invader out, their rank and file were confused as hell.  It always seemed like they were winning, but somehow they never actually won.  When anybody else would have been demoralized, broke, and basically broken, we were still fighting back as hard as ever.  IAAAC and D2 were both completely shocked that the alliance they had been cutting through in most of the fights like a scythe through wheat had not only held the ground, but counter-attacked as if the whole campaign had never happened and we were fresh as daisies.  For the last month or so of both of those sieges, we were actually holding back, letting them keep thinking victory was almost in their reach, so we could keep bleeding them.  When we finally did push back, D2 went into failure cascade and IAC came close.

--Dave

EDIT: Gou, look at it this way: If there's a skirmish, and Side A loses 1 T2-fitted sniper BS, and Side B loses 10 T1 cruisers, who won?  Side A will certainly *feel* like they did, after all they see all those enemy wrecks.  But they lost 120M, and the "losers" lost maybe 30M.  Repeat that 10 times a day for a few weeks, and Side A is going to lose half their guys to go earn isk, and the other half aren't aren't going to be riding much better ships than Side B.  Then Side B provokes a major battle, breaks out the good stuff, and calls in the allies, giving them a qualitative advantage and near numeric parity.  You only have to win the battles that *count* strategically, other than that it's a matter of attrition.  You just need your people not to invest too much ego in their kill ratios.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 01:19:38 AM by MahrinSkel »

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Goumindong
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Reply #19 on: June 18, 2008, 02:28:54 AM

In what wacky world does a t2 fit sniping battleship cost 120m?
Endie
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Reply #20 on: June 18, 2008, 02:54:18 AM

 evil  roflcopter CHATPORN LEAK FROM GOONFLEET  roflcopter  evil

Thread names:

"[Discuss] Amarr Buff Dev Blog *** NO GOUMINDONG ZONE ***"
"[SPEC] Amarr Buff Speculation/Hope Thread ***NO Goumindong ZONE***"

And searching for Goumindong in the Pve/PvP forum returns these as the most recent results (I did not select or miss out any... this is unedited):

  • "god damn it goumindong why do I have to spell this out for you"
  • "Here's some advice, never listen to anything Goumindong says even if it sounds right."
  • "Edit: I just realized I am arguing with goumindong. It would be a more productive use of my time to repeatedly bash my head against a brick wall covered in broken glass. Probably a good deal less painful as well. Carry on with your thread, gentlemen."
  • "Why is Goum posting I have him on ignore jesus but I hit view post and oh god he is just retarded. Also BS's cost 2-4 times as much as a BC while CS's cost only like 1.5-2 as HACS as much tops."
  • "we need to make a word filter for pvp/pve for goumindong => http://goonfleet.com/profile.php?do=...ignore&u=17016"
  • "goumindong get THE FUCK out "
  • "please stop quoting Goumindong tia"
  • "You need to stop posting. Do you want to be the next Goumindong?"

It just goes on like this.  Again, I don't want anyone to think that I'm editing, picking and choosing or otherwise making the poor chap look bad.  I didn't stop because the next one was complimentary (it was worse).  Don't take advice on fittings or tactics from Goumindong.

Edit: Gou is a keen and conscientious attendee of operations with, I suspect, possibly one of the highest rates of attendance in the alliance.  He is just an awful poster/theorycrafter.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 05:32:16 AM by Endie »

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Phildo
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Reply #21 on: June 18, 2008, 08:33:56 AM

Gou, he's saying it costs roughly 120 million in losses after the insurance payout of roughly 100 million.
Hoax
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Reply #22 on: June 18, 2008, 08:47:13 AM

Gou actually sent me a fairly useful PM w/ thoughts on skill training and t1 ships.  I dont think he quite understands that each alliance/region/warfare type/opponent creates a different reality of eve pvp to some degree.  So just because GS did it/does it this way doesn't mean that is "the way".

A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
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Goumindong
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Reply #23 on: June 18, 2008, 09:41:43 AM

Gou, he's saying it costs roughly 120 million in losses after the insurance payout of roughly 100 million.

And I am saying that he is getting a really shitty deal on his modules. T2 fittings haven't been expensive enough to not use since invention came out. Cost after insurance is roughly 20-40m and the difference in loss between a t2 fit cruiser and t2 fit BS is nearly entirely in the hull and covered by insurance. Yea, go ahead and throw away cruisers while letting your enemy loot and salvage the wrecks. If you can't get the forces mustered then don't fight.

Every time you fly something that is of less quality t2 you are costing your alliance money. Its a very simple collective action problem. Why do you think that BoB don't use frigates? Because they collectively lose less in isk when everyone is flying the efficient and high quality ships.

Re: Endie, its actually that pretty much everyone else is worse, a whole lot worse.
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Reply #24 on: June 19, 2008, 02:23:39 AM

We killed a couple of Smash capitals yesterday, and the one I got in on was a testament to why you shouldn't rush to get into a capital before you can fit it out: http://killboard.goonfleet.com/km/224204

Yes, that is a genuine, change-from-20,000-ISK-even-at-0.0-prices Damage Control I.  I find it funnier, however, that a carrier pilot has quite so many T1 drones in his bay.  He's not fitting smartbombs, after all, so it's not to cut the cost of popping them.  And 13 mining drone I's?!?

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Sparky
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Reply #25 on: June 19, 2008, 02:26:51 AM

Large reps on a capital aka "Remedial fit"  awesome, for real
Gets
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Reply #26 on: June 19, 2008, 08:53:24 AM

lac
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Reply #27 on: June 19, 2008, 09:54:55 AM

That's not a bad fit for easy high sec pve stuff, is it?
Phildo
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Reply #28 on: June 19, 2008, 10:43:59 AM

First: battleship mods on a capital ship?  I think he doesn't know the difference.

Second: A carrier is killed by a pair of T2 cruisers?  Aahahahaha.
Jayce
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Reply #29 on: June 19, 2008, 11:08:20 AM

Second: A carrier is killed by a pair of T2 cruisers?  Aahahahaha.

According to the comments it was a guy and his alt, double-boxing I presume.

Witty banter not included.
lac
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Reply #30 on: June 19, 2008, 11:24:53 AM

I don't know anything about flying carriers so how was this possible?
How can the dps of two hacs kill his tank?
Can't his fighters take out two hacs?
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Reply #31 on: June 19, 2008, 11:50:33 AM

I don't know anything about flying carriers so how was this possible?
How can the dps of two hacs kill his tank?
Can't his fighters take out two hacs?
Most of the damage was done by an NPC. I guess they stumbled across him while he was getting AFK faceraped and joined in the fun.

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Phildo
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Reply #32 on: June 19, 2008, 11:53:34 AM

I've heard of carriers being lost while AFK and this guy had exactly 1 tanking module on.  The Curse probably wrecked his capacitor and let the rats do the work.
Phildo
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Reply #33 on: June 19, 2008, 05:52:58 PM

I feel bad for killing this guy.

But that's what he gets for trying to gank miners in Kheram.
Jayce
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Reply #34 on: June 19, 2008, 06:17:00 PM

I feel bad for killing this guy.

But that's what he gets for trying to gank miners in Kheram.

Looks like he was ratting, mining and PvPing... all with the same fit.  Does he not know you can leave your spare items in a station?

Witty banter not included.
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