Star Trek Online: Here We Go Again!

[tmp]

Here's a better one straight from STO launcher.

Currently, the Star Trek Online Server is down. We are aware of this issue

[Stormwaltz]

Heh. I'd always be the guy wading in first. Seeing everyone hover around 'staring at their shoes' and being pussies waiting for the alpha strike sacrifice, and I'm like "Fucking Charge!"

I like the cut of your jib. Once I found out there was no death penalty I was all - "Fuck it, let's melt faces."

Fly a cloaked Bird of Prey into the middle of a Borg formation to take out an objective with maxed disruptor cannon and doubled-barreled photons? It is a good day to die.

[Morat20]

I like the cut of your jib. Once I found out there was no death penalty I was all - "Fuck it, let's melt faces."

Fly a cloaked Bird of Prey into the middle of a Borg formation to take out an objective with maxed disruptor cannon and doubled-barreled photons? It is a good day to die.

It's stuff like that that makes me want to try. I haven't looked at the minimum specs closely, but I bet they'd make my desktop cry.

[Tannhauser]

I'm playing under min specs (Intel Core Duo 1.66Ghz) and it runs fine.  Why not try it while it's free?  It's actually a fun game with a solid footing, it's just hobbled by a few bugs and some boneheaded design decisions, as mentioned above. IMO.

[jakonovski]

Everything that I'm reading lately is incredibly retarded and makes me glad I never gave this game any serious consideration or even a passing glance to check it out.

Call me when there isn't an MMO that has mechanics that makes getting my dick chopped off and served as the main course at the Annual Cockmunch Ball sound more fun.

Sometimes I think people enjoy raging over mmos more than playing them.

[Malakili]

Sometimes I think people enjoy raging over mmos more than playing them.

I'd say this is probably a good description of me at this point.  I mean, I WANT to enjoy playing them, but nothing seems to do the trick anymore.

[jakonovski]

I'd say this is probably a good description of me at this point.  I mean, I WANT to enjoy playing them, but nothing seems to do the trick anymore.

It's because they're all glorified slot machines where the emphasis is not on gameplay. STO does have nice ship combat for an mmo, but suffers from the base mechanic of endless repetition for player advancement. Mechanics can't be too complex and enemies must be virtual skeet shooting targets. A good comparison would be the old Starfleet Command games. It's the same basic game, but they weren't making an mmo, so gameplay was king.

 

[Venkman]

Exactly. Every rant about STO is a rant about general diku-inspired MMOs. It's not bringing enough new stuff to the medium besides the hallmark crazy-customization of a Crypitc game.

Which is why they keep popping out diku-inspired MMOs. People are looking for an alternative to WoW, and nobody has delivered one that keeps the interest for as long as WoW did.

Which, too, is a part of the history of the genre. Except replace WoW with EQ1 

[Lantyssa]

It's not just a lack of new stuff, but doing the old stuff in the shoddiest manner possible.  This isn't a new industry anymore.  There is no excuse for a lot of the mistakes made.

[Nebu]

It's not just a lack of new stuff, but doing the old stuff in the shoddiest manner possible.  This isn't a new industry anymore.  There is no excuse for a lot of the mistakes made.

Developers in this era will suffer the Blizzard effect.  If a customer comes to your MMO having already experienced WoW, they will expect the same level of polish and craftsmanship in your game.  If your customer didn't come from WoW, it's likely that they will try WoW some time after playing your game and immediately draw comparisons.  It's an unfair comparison given development budgets, but one that new developers must consider in the creation of their product. 

The key is to provide a new experience to players in a stylish and streamlined fashion.  If you can't do that on your budget, then you can't expect much more than recouping your investment through box sales alone.

[Malakili]

[

Developers in this era will suffer the Blizzard effect.  If a customer comes to your MMO having already experienced WoW, they will expect the same level of polish and craftsmanship in your game.  If your customer didn't come from WoW, it's likely that they will try WoW some time after playing your game and immediately draw comparisons.  It's an unfair comparison given development budgets, but one that new developers must consider in the creation of their product. 

The key is to provide a new experience to players in a stylish and streamlined fashion.  If you can't do that on your budget, then you can't expect much more than recouping your investment through box sales alone.

The answer, as far as I am concerned, is for developers to stop trying to do what WoW does anyway.  If your game is basically WoW but a little different, of course people are going to go play WoW instead.  If you offer a different experience all together, people will be willing to forgive a bug here and there, assuming that is the experience they wanted in the first place.  (Example: Fallen Earth)  If you are going to spend 100 million dollars, you've go to appeal to every last person you can, but if you spent a small fraction of that, you can make a game that a specific audience actually wants and does its own thing well.

[Venkman]

Which is exactly how the operated when Blizzard was spoken as "SOE" instead

The concepts of business apply to gamers as it does any customer in any industry. You either provide a better product or service than the existing competition set (improvement), create a new customer base by inventing a new product or service (invention), or you redefine the rules of the existing competitive landscape to capture the existing customers and grab new ones from a different demographic/psychographic (innovation).

Or, well, I guess you could be an totalitarian regime and impose change with a gun

Blizzard is a rare breed of company that has the clout and the warchest to innovate at that scale. But they make safe bets. It's the indies that can make the real risky ones, and the small companies that hold themselves from becoming big by not knowing how to make the right changes.

[Nebu]

The concepts of business apply to gamers as it does any customer in any industry. You either provide a better product or service than the existing competition set (improvement), create a new customer base by inventing a new product or service (invention), or you redefine the rules of the existing competitive landscape to capture the existing customers and grab new ones from a different demographic/psychographic (innovation).

Well stated. 

Are we just seeing an inability to create a new market or is it that developers are finding new markets (see AoC and WAR box sales) and unable to deliver on promises?  I guess this is the same cyclical discussion we've been having for years. 

and the small companies that hold themselves from becoming big by not knowing how to make the right changes.

*cough* Mythic *cough*

[ghost]

you've go to appeal to every last person you can, but if you spent a small fraction of that, you can make a game that a specific audience actually wants and does its own thing well.

It's pretty clear you can't make everyone happy.  The objective should be clear-  make a game that is good at what it sets out to do, be it PvP, PvE, mining (Eve), etc. 

I am not a huge Eve fan, but they truly created something unique that is spectacular, in its own way.  Wow hashed over is Wow hashed over. 

[Ghambit]

I'd say most of these developers are simply riding the wave of the consumer simply TRYING to find an alternative to WoW.  Endless grognards searching the Matrix for The One, over and over.  Why would a studio actually take some pride in their work if they can simply drop crumbs for our search instead?

Also, why make a persistent game that people can literally devote ALL of their free time to for the rest of their lives?  Kind of makes no sense, since obviously the market cant expand if everyone is locked into one game.  Hence another reason why companies are now chunking out smaller, cheaper products quicker.  (and another reason why WoW will never die)

I dont mind games like ChampO, STO, TR, AoC, etc.  They're small games with smaller playtime needs that focus on a few key areas of gaming interest.  The real issue with them though was inherent game design, not the overarching business model for a smaller, more "lithe" MMO.

STO is a prime example of a model that could've worked.  No, it didnt need to be epic Trek - yah I said it!  It could've simply been the hybrid lovechild of PotBS and GnH.  Where they're flaling is seemingly small, but important design decisions (a bridge tactical view, better mission design and scripting, balanced difficulty, etc.).  That's what so frustrating to me.

At this point I would've preferred an even narrower game design, given the current state of the game.  SC3 (ww2o in space) or EF2 Online or some such, just done properly.

[DaZog]

Did you choose a DSE instance that was populated?

The thing with that is, I've noticed that the game would bring up the instance selection for a brief moment, then automagically decide to plunk me in an empty instance. After that, it was just stubborn pride that kept me in there.

Although I do notice how wonky entering instances can be. Sometimes I could select the instance I want, but most times the game picked it for me, auto teaming both on and off.

[Stormwaltz]

The thing with that is, I've noticed that the game would bring up the instance selection for a brief moment, then automagically decide to plunk me in an empty instance.

There is an option to "always let me select an instance."  I think I found it by going to the map (M) and selecting "Change Instance." There was a checkbox at the bottom. I think they changed it, though; I just went into the game and the change instance UI had changed. The checkbox was no longer available.

[Venkman]

Are we just seeing an inability to create a new market or is it that developers are finding new markets (see AoC and WAR box sales) and unable to deliver on promises?

In the case of those two games, I think it was an established market being underdelivered. These games neither improved nor invented, and while they both attempted to innovate (WAR's XP from PvP and lake and AoC's slightly-experimental melee comabt), quality kept them from delivering against the market expectations.

So if you can't service the established market you try and get a new one. Unfortunately for core developers, that new market is other video gamers. And they're barely going to put up with a quality product like WoW much less suffer through the other games that are more broken than not.

This is why the Farmville/Pet Society/Cafe Worlds of the world are the true innovations. They've gone after a completely new market. They did so with mechanics we helped refine. But they don't need us because there's a hell of a lot more non-us than us. Whether those games make any money or not is less important when all the pundits are talking impressions and social currency. Those games are also really really cheap to make, so just about anyone with some Flash under their belt can make one. This is at heart the Blue Ocean strategy.

Weigh that against what it'd take to even take on WoW much less have a snowball's chance in hell of succeeding

[Malakili]

Are we just seeing an inability to create a new market or is it that developers are finding new markets (see AoC and WAR box sales) and unable to deliver on promises?

In the case of those two games, I think it was an established market being underdelivered. These games neither improved nor invented, and while they both attempted to innovate (WAR's XP from PvP and lake and AoC's slightly-experimental melee comabt), quality kept them from delivering against the market expectations.

So if you can't service the established market you try and get a new one. Unfortunately for core developers, that new market is other video gamers. And they're barely going to put up with a quality product like WoW much less suffer through the other games that are more broken than not.

This is why the Farmville/Pet Society/Cafe Worlds of the world are the true innovations. They've gone after a completely new market. They did so with mechanics we helped refine. But they don't need us because there's a hell of a lot more non-us than us. Whether those games make any money or not is less important when all the pundits are talking impressions and social currency. Those games are also really really cheap to make, so just about anyone with some Flash under their belt can make one. This is at heart the Blue Ocean strategy.

Weigh that against what it'd take to even take on WoW much less have a snowball's chance in hell of succeeding

This is probably the truth of it.  I have a friend who was a hardcore WoW raider a few years back, and now spends hours a day on facebook games.  I mean, if they can win over a person like that, and reach the truly casual people (i don't even user the word gamer here, these are people who just view the games as "facebook," not even as computer/video games), then they are really a force to be reckoned with.

I dunno, I know its partly just nostalgia, but I do look back on the days when games were made for "power users" with some fondness.

[Furiously]

I wonder how much Mass Effect 2 will hurt sales and how much this will hurt ME2. Seems like poor timing

[Malakili]

I wonder how much Mass Effect 2 will hurt sales and how much this will hurt ME2. Seems like poor timing

Are they really remotely similar though?  I didn't play Mass Effect 1, so I dunno.  I mean, they are both sci fi, but other than that?

[Surlyboi]

I've pre-ordered both and I'll play both. I don't give enough of a shit about my e-peen to really worry about blowing through the headstart. I'll play ME2 and then I'll go back to STO. It'll still be there.

[Venkman]

STO and ME2 are too different to really be competitive. I'll bet though that ME2 is less broken 

This is probably the truth of it.  I have a friend who was a hardcore WoW raider a few years back, and now spends hours a day on facebook games.  I mean, if they can win over a person like that, and reach the truly casual people (i don't even user the word gamer here, these are people who just view the games as "facebook," not even as computer/video games), then they are really a force to be reckoned with.

People's tastes change over time, or life changes them. He may have gotten bored, burned out, or had a lifestyle change that doesn't support it. But Facebook games are today what Solitaire was 15 years ago: a way to kill time at the office without getting burned. They're mindless time fillers until punchout that require half attention until the phone rings or an email comes in. Same can't be said for raiding

[Riggswolfe]

I wonder how much Mass Effect 2 will hurt sales and how much this will hurt ME2. Seems like poor timing

Well, I am not going to play STO until about 2 weeks in probably because of ME2. I have noticed a thread or two on the STO forums that seem to be preemptively attacking ME2 as if fanboys are worried it'll hurt STO somehow.

[Furiously]

I figured I would wait for ME2 to go on sale. Cause kotor2.

[tmp]

Cause kotor2.

Bioware != Obsidian

[01101010]

Interesting connection indeed.

http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=80658

[Stormwaltz]

I remember at one point, AC1 went down because some guy at MS unplugged the server.

Good times, good times.

[Malakili]

When CO launched there was a pretty big failure on Cryptics part because some sort of intern uploaded files to the server before they were ready or something.  I can't remember exactly what happened, but the servers were down all day and I think Cryptic credited everyone's account with an extra day.

[Cyrrex]

I figured I would wait for ME2 to go on sale. Cause kotor2.

Apparently, according to early reviews, ME2 is all that and a bag of doritos. 

I got into the OB, and while I haven't put enough time into it I do have the following observation:  space combat seems fun, but why do all of these massive starships have to be so tiny?  I get that these are like our little avatars floating around in space, but I feel they lose some of the, uh, majestic appeal.  I have no idea how they could solve this problem (and I do consider it a problem).  I just want to feel like I'm flying about in a giant fucking ship pulling off sweeping broadside attacks.  Not some little bug attacking a slightly larger bug and whoops I don't appear to be facing the right way anymore because I'm so tiny that I can't really even tell half the time.

[Stormwaltz]

I got into the OB, and while I haven't put enough time into it I do have the following observation:  space combat seems fun, but why do all of these massive starships have to be so tiny?

Fewer polys and smaller textures are less of a drain on graphics resources?

STO's rendering engine has problems. With my video card fans cranked up high, my card still runs over 70C. The same fan setting at idle runs around 42C, and LotRO with all bells and whistles (a better-looking game, with more stuff on the screen at once) gets up to around 62C.

[Riggswolfe]

I figured I would wait for ME2 to go on sale. Cause kotor2.

As someone else said, Bioware is not Obsidian. ME2 is getting good reviews other than people noticing a few crash bugs. What I found hilarious in the STO threads about ME2 was the fanboy who claimed that playing STO was exactly like playing Mass Effect, so why bother with Mass Effect. I was among a fairly decent sized group that asked him what drugs he was on and if he'd even played ME.

I mean, the guy seriously claimed that he got the exact same gameplay and such.

[Mavor]

Yea cyrrex.. i have to agree with you on that. I was at least hoping for STO space combat that equaled the feeling I got when playing bridge commander (a 5+ year old game??) but... In STO it seems like you are flying around in a paper airplane. In bridge commander, an old game, after putting on some of the texture packs my comp could handle a 100 vs 100 battles with ships that looked great. And I could even cut ships in half with the aftermath of a battle looking like a complete starship graveyard.

 However jump to STO and it seems like cryptic just copy/pasted directly from CO, changed the model of a super hero into a space ship,  changed the navigation scheme and then called it a day. What a huge disappointment. STO screams money grab to me. It's like they are spitting in the face of everyone who can see just how much has been copied and pasted from another game in an effort to keep everything cheap and profitable.

God damn

[tazelbain]

Ya, money.  From Cryptic's perspective, the problem with WAR wasn't that it was a shitty game with good box sells and abysmal retention.  The problem was Mythic spent too much to make it.  Cryptic on the other hand is going to slap the bare minimum in a box and hope the box sells before people realize.  Anyone who sticks around for the sub is just gravy.  It's a strategy to capitalize on market demand for "next WoW" without actually spending the money.  May be effective, but I can hardly imagine a good game can from it.

[Typhon]

This thread is more confusing than most.  Half of the posters actually playing this game say they'll stick around for the free month and have fun while doing it.  Compared to a single-player game with the same box cost, this seems like a good deal.

The other half seem to feel that the game is a piece of shit and Cryptic is doing a shameless money-grab. I really can't remember any other game having such a polarized player*-base, but maybe I'm not trying hard enough.  Regardless, it makes the last couple of pages of this thread a bit schizophrenic to read.

*unlikely that everyone posting is actually playing, but I'll call them "players" regardless