Darkfall "Released"

[Ghambit]

Honestly, all I really needed from Darkfall graphically was WW2O graphics reskinned for medieval DIKU and I would've been happy.  Problem I've got is it's like Darkfall TRIES to be more than it is but just falls short, looking moreso like an aborted fetus in the process.  Whereas a game like WW2O doesnt assume to be anything else but a great online military sim.  The latter says "dont bother looking at me because you'll be dead before you can admire all the pretty roses... we're plain but we make sense; olive drab ftw" and the former says "look at me, I are perdy (uhhh no), you're still dead, but my sword is teh shinay, and my ass is too big for my body."

If they'd had relevant style with unassuming graphics and phat gameplay, they'd have something special.  They needed to stay away from the flashy high fantasy and go moreso towards a more drab goth style.  If that wasnt an option, then a top-down RTS-like view with a zoom option would've made more sense IMO.  It's easier to get away with substandard graphics if your view is from above rather than in 1st person.  If the players want to stare at themselves or others in detail they can open/inspect their charsheet.

[Iniquity]

<- Does not care about shiny graphics.

Bullshit.  It's cliche to say it, but it's bullshit. 

People want the entire package.

No, I'm with Von Douchemore.  Pretty much everybody I know who's serious about PvP runs all their MMOs on absolute minimum graphics settings, no matter their uber-rig, because it's performance above all else.

Look at Darktide PvP videos on youtube.  We're talking AC1, a very old game.  Not exactly a resource hog.  And yet most of the videos are shot on absolute minimum settings.

[Arthur_Parker]

We're talking AC1, a very old game.

Very old, really?  What's that make missile command on the 380z then?

[Falconeer]

Hey,

I am afraid you missed my point.
There are simply spoken not enough "real PvPers" to sustain a healthy playerbase, hence you can't build an MMO for them.
So now you could, as suggested here, make two types of servers, one for the "real PvPers" and one for the "carebears".
So where to focus your dev-time now? PvP or PvE content?
If you focus on PvP you are catering a too small part of your playerbase, if just the "real PvPers" play on PvP servers, and if you focus on PvE you just entered the turf of the biggest cash cow in gaming history, which will without question beat you by experience.
Sorry guys, not that simple.
Both, "real PvPers" and "carebears" have to be brought together somehow to run a PvP oriented game, if your development focus is on PvP.
For now I'd strongly suggest to use common sense, ask yourself the question if you really have to kill someone the 15th time, if you really have to prevent everyone from doing the last quests at Kesh. I'm sure that we'll find some solution to get you two, "real PvPers" and carebears, together.

- Wiesel

This is from Wiesel, one of the Community Managers of Age of Conan. So not exactly Mr. Lead Dev, but still someone IN the industry and dabbling with a major MMORPG with a strong PvP side. Of course he mentions PvE which is supposed to be insignificant in Darkfall, except for some 0 of 4 axes  . Still, I presume their hardnumbers are better than ours when it comes to target audience.

The first three pages of the thread are kinda interesting, thanks to this guy inside perspective.

I stand to my original point: there's definitely room for talent-driven miracles (EVE), but

- Fact 1: 49 out of 50 times to make a worthy subscription based MMORPG you need lots of money.
- Fact 2: hardcore pvpers are not that many, after all.
- Question: are these guys enough to justify a huge investment?
- Reply: NO.
- Solution: Let's do it anyway, with less money!
- Result: UTTER CRAP.

I hope every time to be wrong, we all need a new EVE.
But will it be Darkfall? lolrat says

[mutantmagnet]

Throwing money at a concept won't make that idea any better if it is fundamentally flawed.

IMO MMOs simply aren't being made by disciplined people. Heck I'm not disciplined myself, but I can spot slackers messing up time tables and going over budget because they didn't make a detailed enough plan with enough contingencies to cover needed changes with ease. 

[LC]

Look on the bright side. If you have ever had the desire to roleplay as a pasty white plumper with severe arthritis in a leather thong, darkfail is your game.

[ashrik]

Hey,

I am afraid you missed my point.
There are simply spoken not enough "real PvPers" to sustain a healthy playerbase, hence you can't build an MMO for them.
So now you could, as suggested here, make two types of servers, one for the "real PvPers" and one for the "carebears".
So where to focus your dev-time now? PvP or PvE content?
If you focus on PvP you are catering a too small part of your playerbase, if just the "real PvPers" play on PvP servers, and if you focus on PvE you just entered the turf of the biggest cash cow in gaming history, which will without question beat you by experience.
Sorry guys, not that simple.
Both, "real PvPers" and "carebears" have to be brought together somehow to run a PvP oriented game, if your development focus is on PvP.
For now I'd strongly suggest to use common sense, ask yourself the question if you really have to kill someone the 15th time, if you really have to prevent everyone from doing the last quests at Kesh. I'm sure that we'll find some solution to get you two, "real PvPers" and carebears, together.

- Wiesel

Amen. I agree with this 100%, and I'd cite it as the reason why Darkfall will not do well even if there actually is a game down there. Oldschool hardcore PVP fans, and the developers who make games for them, need to realize just how small of a niche demographic they actually are. While I couldn't fault the DF devs for making a game for this small group, I'd definitely fault anyone who argued that this position will be met with any kind of market-wide "success".

[Checkers]

A lot of discussion about the relative size of the hardcore pvp market tends to discount that many the current crop of mmorpg players have never been exposed to a pvp-centric mmo, especially one that is up to the standard of WoW.  I expect the market is potentially much larger than developers would like to admit, but they would rather lay blame elsewhere than admit their failure to create a game that satisfies it.  Warhammer and AoC didn't disappoint because of lack of interest in PvP.  They're just bad games.  All this QQ about the nature of the market is absolutely stupid.

[Ghambit]

A lot of discussion about the relative size of the hardcore pvp market tends to discount that many the current crop of mmorpg players have never been exposed to a pvp-centric mmo, especially one that is up to the standard of WoW.  I expect the market is potentially much larger than developers would like to admit, but they would rather lay blame elsewhere than admit their failure to create a game that satisfies it.  Warhammer and AoC didn't disappoint because of lack of interest in PvP.  They're just bad games.  All this QQ about the nature of the market is absolutely stupid.

/sign

And is not the real nature of any multiplayer game being VERSUS a human?  That is what pvp is, is it not?  Also remember, even hardcore PvE games have an inherent full-time PvP element... whether it be by simply tracking guild progress, lootz, and other various stats.  It's all PvP in my eyes.  Some do it well, some dont... some water it down enough with other stuff that it doesnt matter.  In the end though, it's all varying degress of PvP.

[garlicwolf]

I do wish for darkfall to be released. So everyone can go "Ah, failure" 

[Signe]

I do wish for darkfall to be released. So everyone can go "Ah, failure" 

Well, that might work for other places but around f13 we usually start saying that while it's still in the conception stage.  I don't know why.  I don't know what's wrong with us.  It's alarming!

[garlicwolf]

I do wish for darkfall to be released. So everyone can go "Ah, failure" 

Well, that might work for other places but around f13 we usually start saying that while it's still in the conception stage.  I don't know why.  I don't know what's wrong with us.  It's alarming!

Other places are filled with darkfall fanbois with UO nostalgia, hell people who didn't even play UO have that nostalgia. Lack of fanbois + lack of nostalgia = 10 page long darkfail thread.

[Falconeer]

A lot of discussion about the relative size of the hardcore pvp market tends to discount that many the current crop of mmorpg players have never been exposed to a pvp-centric mmo, especially one that is up to the standard of WoW.  I expect the market is potentially much larger than developers would like to admit, but they would rather lay blame elsewhere than admit their failure to create a game that satisfies it.  Warhammer and AoC didn't disappoint because of lack of interest in PvP.  They're just bad games.  All this QQ about the nature of the market is absolutely stupid.

You are stumbling on the point.
You mention hardcore pvp in your first sentence but then you go on clearly using examples made of NON-hardcore PvP.

Your post makes sense if you are talking about vanilla sport-like PvP. (so yeah, Warcraft, Warhammer, Age of Conan)
Doesn't make a bit of it when you think about Kick-in-the-nuts-when-you-die. That's what the AoC guy was talking about. That's what Hardcore PvP is. He's not laying any blame, he's just explaining why AoC didn't go the hardcore pvp way and why future games will have a problem trying to do it.

You have a 10 millions people in non-Asia interested in MMORPGs and PVP extension, cause no MMORPG will ever ship without it again.
You have 100k interested in the kind of PvP we are talking about, and Darkfall is aiming to. Yeah, I think that's a fair extimation even counting EVE.

To sum up:
PvP = Huge market, growing.
Hardcore PvP = Tiny market, shrinking.

Do you disagree? Numbers & Examples, please.

Talking about "absolut stupidity", your post qualifies for the playoffs.

[Lantyssa]

There's also the fact that Darkfail certainly won't be bucking the trend.

Since no one is going to sink the money, effort, and ideas into doing hardcore PvP 'right', all of us saying there is no market for it will always be correct.  We don't even have to get into the social and psychological aspects of why it would never work.

[garlicwolf]

Now if only we can beat in the head of every fanboy the two post above.

[schild]

garlicwolf,

Lurk more.

Thanks.

Wait, no, fuckit. Ban avoidance. You're gone.

For those wondering, he wasn't Dash.

[SnakeCharmer]

Tit for tat, and not that it matters much, but the first day I logged into Left 4 Dead, I was paired up with a 'Geldonyetich'.

Do I win a prize?

Yes, this post is about as relevant to the discussion as the 'pvp mmo done right' comments because it'aint ever gonna happen.

[Draegan]

I get a lot of nasty PMs on other places when I mention Darkfall Darkfail is going to be terrible when I just point out the graphics/animations.  Then they go into full blown Vanguard/Every other MMO that fails mode talking about promises and supposed features that are "turned off" right now.

[schild]

I get a lot of nasty PMs on other places when I mention Darkfall Darkfail is going to be terrible when I just point out the graphics/animations.  Then they go into full blown Vanguard/Every other MMO that fails mode talking about promises and supposed features that are "turned off" right now.

You should post them for lulz and "profit."

(It's gonna be a slow monday, I'd imagine the PMs aren't actually that nasty).

[Draegan]

I've deleted almost all of them but here is one I got this morning.

In response to one of the latest videos that were out where the PC was a chick in a thong running around I wrote:

That PC was running around like she had a dick in her ass.

I got this:

You got a problem with that jew?

I'm not sure if this person was calling me a jew or the PC or the developer.  I'm also confused since nothing related has anything to do with typical jewish stereotypes.

[ashrik]

Dick in ass sprints are a well-known Jewish stereotype, you bigot 

[mutantmagnet]

I'm not sure if this person was calling me a jew or the PC or the developer.  I'm also confused since nothing related has anything to do with typical jewish stereotypes.

A lot of overt racists are a significant part of the Darkfall community.

[tazelbain]

If I got my goon lingo down: he's saying you like to PvE for in-game money.

[TheCastle]

You got a problem with that jew?

LOL!!
THAT is some funny stuff right there.

To comment on the art right now. As a level designer in my spare time I could most likely put together environments with better art than what they are showing while still reaching min spec. And don't give me some crap that they want the game to run cell phones..

The art is awful.. the animations should not be getting any response other than "Woah that looks bad..."

Its really bad design and a poor 3d engine that cause the video and the screenshots to get this reaction.
They need to hire artists that cannot be topped by a level designer for starters...

edit: Watching the video again its really just the run cycle that drags the whole video down. I might not have commented on the rest of the art considering it as passable had I not seen that awful run cycle....

[Falconeer]

Seriously, visuals and animations are the last of Darkfail's problems.

Darkfall isn't aiming for the stars, so fuck the visuals. And yeah, as someone else said, hardcore pvpers usually tone down the settings just to be sure nothing will get in the way of their kills to the point everything could look like the matrix code to them if it is enough to give 'em the edge.

The problem with Darkfall is the game itself. Take a look at the features & faq.

Personally, I could play it on a black & white TV set if it could deliver in a playable and fun way half the things advertised there. So screw the animations.
But can it? Haha!

[Zzulo]

I personally think animations are important, and I'm a PvPer

I don't want to be running around with a toon looking like I had a pineapple shoved up my rectum, beating on other toons with the same problem

[tolakram]

New preview released today:

http://beta.thenoobcomic.com/df_preview/intro.html

Anyway, I went to kill the local npc goblins to get some gear and complete a couple of starter quests (pve is surprisingly fun, I'll talk about the AI in the next few days) and I made the very basic mistake of not looking behind my back. After all, it's ork country, I'm 100 yards away from the outpost, as far as I know there's a system of 'hit a fellow ork, go grey, gank him go red' reminiscent of UO, the nearest enemy would have to run for ages before getting here... OK, I wasn't thinking all these things, but I wasn't being particularly cautious either. Next thing I know, I am meleeing a goblin and thinking "hmm, these goblins sure hit haAAARGH", and I take a dirtnap with just enough time to see, before I die, that a fellow ork newbie has just planted his "leafblade" (or "LOL", or "whatever") between my shoulder blades. So yes, there is a rogue/murder system in place, but it's not a one-strike-you're-out kind of thing. Trust no one! Keep your leafblade handy!

A fair question could be "So why aren't you looking behind your back when you're fighting, newb? Can't you just mouselook?" Nope! But I'll elaborate on this topic in another update. For the moment let's leave my looted, half naked ork as she looks at the rising sun, hoping that the future will bring more loot, or at least a shirt...Tomorrow is another day!

Oh my that sounds like fun doesn't it!  I can't wait to read more....  

[Ghambit]

I guess we need to delineate between animations and textures/graphics.  It's a well known fact that in many ways animations make something more lifelike than do perdy graphics.  Things that move and act humanoid-like creep us out more than things that simply look like us.  So, I guess Darkfall (and any other game for that matter) should be really more concerned with gameplay, terrain, and how PC/NPCs physically interact with all of the above rather than just how those PCs/NPC look.  Again, it's the low-poly stylization that's key here...  and the sophistication of the skeletons.  Lotsa moving parts obviously slow the game down, but if I had to make a choice I'd say physics over makeup.   Make all of the characters like Toribash fighters.

Shyt, as for Darkfall, right now it's like it'd almost be better if the characters just all FLOATED around (i've scribbled a game-design as such) rather than try running.  In that case, they can go for the prettiness, just make them static except for when casting/fighting.

[Falconeer]

Gianna is great, I love Gianna. She shouldn't do this, especially cause they are her friends.

[Ghambit]

Gianna is great, I love Gianna. She shouldn't do this, especially cause they are her friends.

??  Gianna is friends with the DF devs?

btw, wtf does Gianna look like?  she sounds like dork nirvana in panties [italian/uk gamer-chic comic writer who works out every day, while holding down an IT job] ...  uhhh, she's not on this board is she? 

[Falconeer]

Gianna is friend with Tasos and the guys at Aventurine as she stated herself on that link tolakram posted.

I've been a good friend of Claus and Tasos for many years and we've often played MMOs together in the past.

Not just friends, PvP buddies!
She hosted a Darkfall banner since forever (seriously) and they hosted The Noob in return.
While I am 100% sure it always was about esteem and respect for each other, and I trust her as a witted, extremely smart and straightforward person, I still think she shouldn't publicly preview her friends' game.

What does she look? There are/were a few pics of her around but who cares? Don't be a pig! Do you ever wonder wtf do I look like? 

[Xuri]

What does she look? There are/were a few pics of her around but who cares? Don't be a pig! Do you ever wonder wtf do I look like? 

I wondered what everyone in here looked like, for a while. But I got better.

[veredus]

What does she look? There are/were a few pics of her around but who cares? Don't be a pig! Do you ever wonder wtf do I look like? 

I wondered what everyone in here looked like, for a while. But I got better.

I know what everyne looks like...

 

[HaemishM]

A lot of discussion about the relative size of the hardcore pvp market tends to discount that many the current crop of mmorpg players have never been exposed to a pvp-centric mmo, especially one that is up to the standard of WoW.  I expect the market is potentially much larger than developers would like to admit, but they would rather lay blame elsewhere than admit their failure to create a game that satisfies it.  Warhammer and AoC didn't disappoint because of lack of interest in PvP.  They're just bad games.  All this QQ about the nature of the market is absolutely stupid.

Stop it while you are behind.

Let me clue you into something about the larger MMO market today. They don't put up with shit. They are whiny douchenozzles. If you think the whining and QQing on the Warhammer, AOC or even WOW boards are bad, imagine those whiny fucksticks getting double-fucked nightly in a "real" PVP game (one which will likely have long travel times, quick deaths and large power disparities). They will whine, piss and moan and quit the game. For all its flaws, Warhammer and AOC protected the player from PVP deaths fairly well. Old skool style PVP will RAPE those younguns and they will not come back for more.

[Cadaverine]

Gianna is great, I love Gianna. She shouldn't do this, especially cause they are her friends.

??  Gianna is friends with the DF devs?

btw, wtf does Gianna look like?  she sounds like dork nirvana in panties [italian/uk gamer-chic comic writer who works out every day, while holding down an IT job] ...  uhhh, she's not on this board is she? 

http://flickr.com/photos/lagthenoggin/111648544/