Well, it looks like EQ2 will beat WoW to shelves by 2 weeks

[Soukyan]

I've no idea which team is developing faster, EQ2 patch lists have only just become available and I'm not interested enough to run a comparison. But to assume those will be indicative of progress after launch seems dangerous.

Assuming that SOE will patch faster after launch is foolishness. If we look at the precedent of EQ1, it's laughable to think that SOE will even be able to or attempt to fix anything after launch. They rely on player complacence and ingenuity so their playerbase finds ways around the bugs and just accepts them as a fact of life in Norrath. That's why there are still bugs in the game from release (release!) and also the aforementioned bugs still in existence from Luclin. They'll never be fixed. There just isn't enough time or resources to put into patching up legacy code that has already been patched over with so many expansions. That's the SOE way. Love it or hate it, it's here to stay.

[jpark]

One thing that annoyed me watching EQ2 movies was the way the characters moved, they just kind of slid along the ground while making vague foot-waving motions.

A small detail that helps a lot is when peopel walking/running really LOOK like they are walking/running, because you do a lot of that in these games. It takes you out of the game when you see the animation is very off. (That is the very first thing I noticed about AC2, the running animation didn't match the movement at all)

This is just another thing continues to capture my fanboi attention about CoH.  The kinetics behind the movement of the avatars in running and jumping is amazing.  I loaded EQ recently just compare - and I had to howl.

It isn't superficial.  Been playing CoH since release and I have to say that the kinetics behind them movement of the avatars still adds to the game for me.  That said - the absence of this sort of achievement in EQII based on the videos is going to bother me.

[El Gallo]

The issue isn't bug fixing patches.  Both games will be slow as shit in bug squashing.  SoE will be much faster with new content.  WoW's current PvE content will be utterly exhausted by even a time-starved powergamer in a few months.  Blizzard keeps reassuring us that the real game is going to be patched in later.  But they are SO DAMN SLOW with everything they do.  

The true hardcore gamers know they'll exhaust content in any game, but they're also the ones most interested in loot farming.

I have fears that this is where the game is headed.  Right now, the 60 PvE game is much more of a rare-drop grind than EQ ever was, because Blizz has been putting in Diablo-like drop rates (i.e. you are looking at hundreds of multihour instance runs to get the sword of roxxorage, a 1-in-300 drop from the boss, which makes camping a FBSS look like a momentary diversion).

Also note that most time-starved powergamers, and even a lot of straightforward powergamers, never exhausted all the available content Kunark and beyond.   Now the reasons may not be pleasant (mostly timesinks, turnover, and chokeholds by more advanced guilds), but the fact is that there was never a massive "I've killed everything, farmed all its loot and am now bereft of any way to increase my character" outcry in EQ1, because only the bleeding-edge guilds ever hit that point.  Even the #1 & 2 guild on my server would often not be finished with the previous expansion's content when the new expansion came out.

Having half your playerbase at the maxed out point will be a new thing, and I am curious how WoW will respond to that other than "go PvP".

[Soukyan]

Having half your playerbase at the maxed out point will be a new thing, and I am curious how WoW will respond to that other than "go PvP".

It works for DAoC.

[El Gallo]

True dat.  I am a carebear at heart, as all righteous God-fearing gamers are, and expect everything to be designed for me!

[Soukyan]

True dat.  I am a carebear at heart, as all righteous God-fearing gamers are, and expect everything to be designed for me!

Amen, brother!

[AcidCat]

Having half your playerbase at the maxed out point will be a new thing, and I am curious how WoW will respond to that other than "go PvP".

Personally I see this as a great opportunity to be able to play multiple characters. Maybe CoH turned me into an alt-monkey, but I'm glad that the level grind is not prohibitively long, most of WoW's classes sound fun and I'd like to play a few characters.

[Furiously]

I think WOW's quests would kill me the 2nd time I tried to make a character of the same race.

[Polysorbate80]

Now the reasons may not be pleasant (mostly timesinks, turnover, and chokeholds by more advanced guilds), but the fact is that there was never a massive "I've killed everything, farmed all its loot and am now bereft of any way to increase my character" outcry in EQ1, because only the bleeding-edge guilds ever hit that point.

At least some of those same guilds (FoH, Afterlife, et al) are now rabidly pro-WoW.  One more reason I most likely won't play it, because even if they haven't totally fucked up the game yet, I'm sure they'll get around to it at some point...

[Kageru]

We'll see. I think you're wrong, and that it will be SOE slow to deliver content, but neither of us have any proof. And since Blizzard has never had a subscription game before previous evidence is not terribly valid.

And yes, WoW is going to be a loot centric game, they don't evn try to hide it so I'm surprised it comes as a shock to anyone. The instances are fun in themselves, but what gives them durability will be the hope that this time something novel and exciting you've been lusting after drops. Between that and in instance quests they've set up a system where you will not be content with doing an instance once. Check out thotbot and look at some of the mob loot tables, they're deep and varied and some of the drop rates are low. They've even made it quite clear there will be dependancy chains in the form of must kill/farm X before you can challenge Y.

I'll point again at diablo-2. People have had maxed out characters for years with zero new content, but it still has a player population. Heck, they're even doing set items and I wouldn't be surprised if we see an augment system like runes in the future.

But what do you expect EQ2 to offer? It's not going to have any PvP, it's unlikely to have high level single group content like WoW, and they're going to have to motivate people to kill Vox more than once. You can put money that the drops are going to be carrot there too.

[Riggswolfe]

Part of what made Diablo loot work was that you could trade items to complete whatever loot set you were looking for. (set is a bad word, I'm not necessarily talking about set items).

The thing is, most WoW loot binds on pickup so that won't be possible.

[Kageru]

They tried that originally, and it led to a massive trade in `common' end game items. I also think that discouraging trading increases longevity (at a cost in frustration of course). And finally the raid document they've released makes it clear that ego is a part of it. The highest end items will be rare and visually distinctive. A whole heap of gamers will go to extreme lengths just for the chance to strut. You could even see this in the lust after pirate hats, dragon whelps (rare drop pets) and other things. If you can buy uber items then the ego element is reduced.

[Riggswolfe]

They tried that originally, and it led to a massive trade in `common' end game items. I also think that discouraging trading increases longevity (at a cost in frustration of course). And finally the raid document they've released makes it clear that ego is a part of it. The highest end items will be rare and visually distinctive. A whole heap of gamers will go to extreme lengths just for the chance to strut. You could even see this in the lust after pirate hats, dragon whelps (rare drop pets) and other things. If you can buy uber items then the ego element is reduced.

I never did get my pirate hat. Bought a lucky fisherman's hat though and gave it to a friend.

[MrHat]

You could even see this in the lust after pirate hats, dragon whelps (rare drop pets) and other things.

Shit, there's a pirate hat?

Guess my dual sword wielding orc is going to be a pirate!

[Kageru]

Yep,  it used to be a rare drop off "pretty boy" duncan.

http://www.thottbot.com/index.cgi?i=8699

Not to mention this one, a Tauren in a tux is a sight not easily forgotten;

http://www.thottbot.com/index.cgi?i=13156

Hm, it's marked as being limited supply off a vendor, I wonder what that means. A sale item with a respawn time? It also takes two components, one a vendor item to create a money sink and one a craft component dropped off high level mobs. Of course you have to stop the warrior turning it into bandages first.

As was observed, WoW is just another MMORPG, but it's not without some thought in its construction.

[Riggswolfe]

I had a full Tuxedo at one point. And yes the pirate hat is literally, a black pirate hat complete with skull and crossbones. ALot of rogues wear them.

[Merusk]

Hm, it's marked as being limited supply off a vendor, I wonder what that means. A sale item with a respawn time?

Yes.  EQ had these on some vendors as well, though the 'respawn' was only at server reboots. I can't recall if DAoC or any of the others had items that were like this.

[El Gallo]

Yeah, there are a couple decent low-mid level weapons and a few tradeskill recipes that are limited vendor spawns (the alchemy vendor in ogrimmar, and 2 weapons dealers in the barrens come to mind as ones I have used in the past).  You can also find this stuff in the auction houses because people farm the vendors.  I like the idea anyway.

[Sky]

The highest end items will be rare and visually distinctive. A whole heap of gamers will go to extreme lengths just for the chance to strut.

Or the extreme lengths gamers will go to so they don't look like a carbon copy of 3/4 the damn server.

[29A]

At least some of those same guilds (FoH, Afterlife, et al) are now rabidly pro-WoW.  One more reason I most likely won't play it, because even if they haven't totally fucked up the game yet, I'm sure they'll get around to it at some point...

- I actually like to thank FoH and the first few uberguilds to reach the endgame for (insert expansion here) for "beta testing" EQ1 endgame encounters and allowed my guild to get a fairly bugless and sort of well balanced content.

IMO, it's not fair to say FoH or Afterlife will fuck up WoW, a lot of raid content is instanced so there won't be competition for content (something that sucks and SOE still has problems comprehending), and maybe endgame will be more balanced.

Furor might look like a pompuos arrogant asshole on EQ boards, but he made a lot of great suggestions and some were implemented by SOE to try sort of balance EQ1's classes.

Give the man a chance :)

[WayAbvPar]

Furor might look like a pompuos arrogant asshole on EQ boards

...but he is even worse in RL? That is the only way that sentence makes any sense. The guy is a self-aggrandizing gasbag heading a guild that has a huge sense of entitlement. Color me unimpressed.

[schild]

29A, while it's fun to *think* uberguilds deserve a chance. They don't. Sure they are vocal and great for word of mouth. But what a bunch of asspirates. Every time. Guaranteed. I hope he plays Guild Wars so I can skullfuck him with my necro.

Edit: Ironically enough, if everyone in Bat Country played one game competitively, we'd probably dominate just as much. But we're fun, nice, and mostly bunnies.

[Riggswolfe]

Edit: Ironically enough, if everyone in Bat Country played one game competitively, we'd probably dominate just as much. But we're fun, nice, and mostly bunnies.

I remember having this exact thought in COH after seeing the group play together.

My fear with FOH and all of these other Uberguilds is they are going to try to squash things like soloability in WoW (as discussed in that other thread somewhere on this very forum) and basically anything that doesn't require an Uberguild to complete it. If I give these guys any credit it is that they play together so much their groups run well together for the most part. So they easily crush most content. What they don't realize is that to make the game challenging for them it makes it much harder for people that have lives outside of the game.

[El Gallo]

29A, mentioning Furor in any positive light around here is the equivalent of dropping your pants and bending over a prison radiator.  Most people here either assume he loved everything about EQ because they never actually read his commentary on the game, or else take his rant posture seriously.  

     For my part, I think that Furor was the best EQ ranter of the post-Lum era, hands down.  The things he criticized about EQ were things I hated about the game as well.  Raid sizes are too big, not enough skill involved, too many tedious timesinks, too much rushed, unfinished and/or unimaginative content that got worse with each expansion, too many developer cockblocks to hide the same, too few strategies, too many unbalanced abilities, etc etc.   If he can actually pull off raids without the crap he bitched about <lol> I can't wait for WoW raids.

[WayAbvPar]

Edit: Ironically enough, if everyone in Bat Country played one game competitively, we'd probably dominate just as much. But we're fun, nice, and mostly bunnies.

We did just fine for the first couple of weeks of SB, before the crippling bugs and required 24/7 vigilance broke everyone's will to play. Just mention sb.exe in Haemish's presence and watch his eyelid start to twitch =)

I am looking forward to seeing what BC can do in GW. Should be interesting.

[HaemishM]

IMO, it's not fair to say FoH or Afterlife will fuck up WoW, a lot of raid content is instanced so there won't be competition for content (something that sucks and SOE still has problems comprehending), and maybe endgame will be more balanced.

Furor is an assmonkey of the highest order. Had SOE not been so interested in taking your money first, THEN giving you a working expansion, Furor would have been just one more self-important catass weasel fucker with a web page. His endless tracts of e-peen waving were useless co-dependent relationship bullshit. He was the battered wife bitch to SOE's redneck in a wife-beater t-shirt. He didn't help make the content balanced; he helped ensure that the content was made fucking unreachable for the mass of players just to cater to his loudmouth vocal minority.

EQ WAS a fun game, until his achievement-minded stat-obsessed bunch of lewtz whorez challenged the egotism of McQuaid and Co. to "up the ante." EQ development became a contest of who could fuck who first. Except that it was everyone else getting fucked by being cockblocked and timesinked out of content they might otherwise have been able to experience.

There is no challenege in EQ-style Furor-loving content besides the challenge to persistence.

Sb.exe .... /eyetwitch

[Sky]

EQ WAS a fun game, until his achievement-minded stat-obsessed bunch of lewtz whorez challenged the egotism of McQuaid and Co. to "up the ante." EQ development became a contest of who could fuck who first. Except that it was everyone else getting fucked by being cockblocked and timesinked out of content they might otherwise have been able to experience.

Well said as always, Haemish.

[Kageru]

Furors fame is directly connected to the fact that SOE couldn't find a spine between the whole of them. Once it became obvious that a strident voice could affect game design it assured that players at least listened to what he said, which in turn meant that developers would respond to what they now perceived as a public concern. The latest episode, where they flew an entire legion of uber-guilders to a "summit" so they could listen to their concerns was simply proved that they haven't changed.

Incidentally you're also inflating his fame here. He's just a minor quest writer at Blizzard, he's not setting design directions. And I find it harder to imagine Enoyls getting pushed around in a similar fashion.

[El Gallo]

Incidentally you're also inflating his fame here. He's just a minor quest writer at Blizzard, he's not setting design directions. And I find it harder to imagine Enoyls getting pushed around in a similar fashion.

Uh, Enoyls = Rob Pardo = Ariel, guildmaster of Legacy of Steel, an EQ uberguild pretty much indistinguishable from FoH, Afterlife, and Triton.  Sometime after he left LoS, Tigole, also of WoW fame, took over the guildmastership.  He and Furor have been circlejerking for years.  For kicks, you can find Tigole's announcement they he was joining the WoW team here, beneath numerous updates he wrote that read like slightly-less-witty-than-usual Furor updates here http://www.legacyofsteel.net/newspro/archives/arc23.html

[Kageru]

Yup. I know. Although the way I hear it LoS wasn't an uber-guild when Pardo left and Tigole was not connected with Blizzard until well after (April 2002 I see). I was just commenting on connecting furor with wow, I don't believe he has much design influence.

But you can certainly blame Tigole for WoW being uber-guild compatible should you care too.

[Viin]

According to Fileplanets WoW Beta page (found here: http://www.fileplanet.com/subscribe/wow/index.html) the Open Beta will start the 8th.

I wonder how many people (other than the fanbois who preordered) will forgo buying EverQuest 2 on the 8th and just play WoWs open beta.

Too bad the SOE won't tell us how many boxes they sell in the first week.

No offense to Raph and all the people who worked hard on EQ2, but Go Blizzard! (There's nothing like cheering for the underdog who takes on The Man).

[schild]

Blizzard has been around longer and sold more games than any SOE title (I'm confident the end of that statement is true). What you're rooting for is a fucking snowball. Going down a hill. The hill is everest. Unfortunately, I think it will hit a tree when WoW needs to patch every other day.

[Viin]

Blizzard has been around longer and sold more games than any SOE title (I'm confident the end of that statement is true). What you're rooting for is a fucking snowball. Going down a hill. The hill is everest.

Oh I know. I just want to see someone displace the biggest North American MMO publisher who happens to have really low production and customer service values. I don't care who it is, but Blizzard has the best chance right now. Besides, if anyone can show the world how to deploy a successful MMO without selling their souls to the devil, Blizzard's the one to do it.

Of course, NC Soft is doing a hell of a job too. Should be an interesting couple years.

Unfortunately, I think it will hit a tree when WoW needs to patch every other day.

I hear you saying this (over and over) but I have yet to see anything that says this will be the case. Care to make a wager? ;)

[schild]

I hear you saying this (over and over) but I have yet to see anything that says this will be the case. Care to make a wager? ;)

I'm just testy. I've been at work for 12 hours.

[Ardent]

Unfortunately, I think it will hit a tree when WoW needs to patch every other day.

Heehee, obviously you didn't play the WoW beta much.

Patches were every other MONTH, if we were lucky.