AoC vs WAR vs ? - Biggest Launch Disappointment 2008

[lamaros]

...


wow

Keep going. I think you can say the same stupid thnig 50 times in a row if you try.

[shiznitz]

Stop now before you fall further behind.

[Murgos]

It's still flying right over your and Murgos' head.

The only thing I can do at this point is repeat what I've said three times so I'll just leave it there.  Look around you though, the statements I've made are what is enforced and used as policy by every single MMO that has pvp.

There just may be a reason for that.

[Slayerik]

I personally love having a KOS list again.

And RP-PVP servers are win. Me and my guildie were waiting on a respawn in Conall Valley (we are both Stygian) when two Cimmerians come up and basically try to cut in line. We do some light RP by claiming the camp for Stygia, and calling them Cimmerian pussies or some shit....the guys decided to have a go at us.

We focus fire quickly on one, the other guy just takes off running. It was freakin hilarious. So, we finish off the ranger and prepare for the inevitable revenge attempt. I have my friend hide, and I start running around like I'm alone fighting shit. A few minutes later they take the bait and are throughly trounced again.

The dude warns us that if we don't leave Conall Valley that we will be killed repeatedly by his friend. I figure he's talking shit, so we just go about our business. About 15 minutes later, a guy about 10 levels higher and the original ranger have tracked us down and killed us. Sonofabitch, that never happens. I thought people always threatened with friends that never show up!!!

They get us once more in the valley, and we ended up fighting some spawn campers on top of the hill. It was a couple guys that had us by maybe 8 levels each, so we'd kill one and eventually they'd get us. Apparently, the Cimmerian guys dislike spawn campers more than Stygian Dogs, and in the middle of one fight we were in...out of the blue they help us out and kick the campers asses royally. Through some tells later, we decide to make a truce and agree to help each other again if any dickwads start up again.


This is the kind of interaction you don't get on a PvE server. Sure, I coulda made one more level had I not been scrapping with all the guys...but I tell ya what, I had more fun doing the PVP than any ding grats. So there is my take so far on RP-PVP.

[Mrbloodworth]

Yeah, the RP-PvP servers are vastly different than what i hear coming off the PvP servers. Most people at least try to play nice, AND there was a large guild summit a few days ago, a lot of guilds attended... i am sure its just the beginning of the RP set up for the server. Anyway, most will at least demand money, or sex or throw a insult your way before attacking.

There is little spawn camping, loading camping ETC.. going on on our server. And if it does, see slayers postings.

[Toby]

Hi guys!

I'm on the Cimmeria server and while I'm not liking the non rp pvping (that's why I rolled on that server, but I digress) I totally get what Murgos is saying.  Ganking, griefing what the fuck ever is fine, call them an asshole, that's fine as well, you can totally do that, but you can't go too far.  To quote a player I saw in local chat "I'd rub your mom's clit with sandpaper", or "Stupid fag ni##ers".  That shit won't fly.  And I know exactly how the GM's look at it because I was a GM for WoW.  That one GM screwed up something fierce, but when you have a flux of new people mistakes will be made.  Take for what you will, but i know it's a FFA PvP server now that the rules are out.

[HaemishM]

This is freakin' hilarious. I swear, it's like 2003 all the hell over again. First there were people having faith that the fun/balance/content will be patched in later. Then there was the success that was just big enough in comparison to the big title of the day to be relevant but not big enough to be considered real competition. Then there's a whole bunch of spotty performance issues. And now there's a bunch of DAoC WoW-trained newbs to the genre bitching that the PvP they left their game for isn't actually how they envisioned it.

Everything old is new again! Shit, I thought that was a 20 year cycle.

Same as it ever was
Same as it ever was

I'm loving this whole PVP spawn camping kerfluffle. It's exactly what I predicted. And of course people are bitching about getting spawn camped despite being on PVP servers. Yes, they are fucking idiots for expecting NOT to be spawn camped and shittalked to on a PVP server. But that's the price of success coupled with the hubris of making the same established mistakes over again. These problems have already been solved, if the developers would just open their fucking eyes and see.

Hell, Shadowbane had them solved way back when. In the most hardcore PVP game of them all, if you died, you didn't spawn anywhere near where you were killed unless your city was being sieged. And even then, you had the choice of a few freeholds which were likely miles from where the action was. Yes, it had shitastic travel times. I'm beginning to think that for PVP, extended but not obscene travel times may be a necessity. But then that also highlights the futility that is trying to squeeze PVP into a world that is built for story-intensive linear PVE progressions.

[Hoax]

This is the kind of interaction you don't get on a PvE server. Sure, I coulda made one more level had I not been scrapping with all the guys...but I tell ya what, I had more fun doing the PVP than any ding grats

If I was the type of guy who sig'd things people have said on the forums I would sig this.

[trias_e]

I've never been spawn camped and even if I were, there are multiple spawn locations in each zone.  I've encountered a few gankings by high level characters, but nothing really bad at all griefing wise.  Maybe it's just my server that's a bit better behaved for some reason.  I'm pretty happy with my choice to go FFA PvP. 

It also probably doesn't hurt that I play a sort of overpowered class. 

[Xanthippe]

I've never been spawn camped and even if I were, there are multiple spawn locations in each zone.  I've encountered a few gankings by high level characters, but nothing really bad at all griefing wise.  Maybe it's just my server that's a bit better behaved for some reason.  I'm pretty happy with my choice to go FFA PvP. 

It also probably doesn't hurt that I play a sort of overpowered class. 

Ya think?

[waylander]

LotD is controlling an entire instance of the 70-80 zone on our server. An instance holds about 96 players from what I'm told. If you get spawn camped, you get friends to help you out if you plan to stay in the zone. Or you can switch to another instance and try your luck there.  On any PVP server or open world PVP, organized groups rule. If you aren't in one or you're in a weak one, life can be miserable.

I would imagine that the PVE servers are pretty tame though.

[slog]

This is freakin' hilarious. I swear, it's like 2003 all the hell over again. First there were people having faith that the fun/balance/content will be patched in later. Then there was the success that was just big enough in comparison to the big title of the day to be relevant but not big enough to be considered real competition. Then there's a whole bunch of spotty performance issues. And now there's a bunch of DAoC WoW-trained newbs to the genre bitching that the PvP they left their game for isn't actually how they envisioned it.

Everything old is new again! Shit, I thought that was a 20 year cycle.

Same as it ever was
Same as it ever was

I'm loving this whole PVP spawn camping kerfluffle. It's exactly what I predicted. And of course people are bitching about getting spawn camped despite being on PVP servers. Yes, they are fucking idiots for expecting NOT to be spawn camped and shittalked to on a PVP server. But that's the price of success coupled with the hubris of making the same established mistakes over again. These problems have already been solved, if the developers would just open their fucking eyes and see.

Hell, Shadowbane had them solved way back when. In the most hardcore PVP game of them all, if you died, you didn't spawn anywhere near where you were killed unless your city was being sieged. And even then, you had the choice of a few freeholds which were likely miles from where the action was. Yes, it had shitastic travel times. I'm beginning to think that for PVP, extended but not obscene travel times may be a necessity. But then that also highlights the futility that is trying to squeeze PVP into a world that is built for story-intensive linear PVE progressions.

A lot of lessons could be learned from Shadowbane, but seem to have been ignored instead.  Ones that come to mind

-Most folks who think they are hardcore are actually not.  Design your Game accordingly.

-20% of your players will dominate the other 80%. If you don't design your game correctly many of the 80% will quit because they have no chance to win.   These percentages are fixed, so as folks in  80% quit , people in the 20% group move to the 80% group and the process continues.

-RP-PvP servers will die as guilds from the 80% group (see above rule) migrate from PvP servers to RP-PvP servers because "the competition isn't as intense and we can pwn those RP Phags"

[Venkman]

This is the part that irks me.

AoC shouldn't be making the same mistakes that SB did 5 years ago. But it was inevitable that they would.

These games are almost too vertical to truly evolve. Developers going from crash project to crash project. How much of an expert can they be in the nuances of the less successful titles in the genre? Who's got the time?

Add to this the management complexity: being a market success is still seen as a big part of whether features work. You can have good execution with a unmarketable IP. But because the game didn't sell 10mil units, you can't even talk about what parts of the game were good? And worse, because it didn't sell 10mil units, there's a good chance you didn't even make it a priority to play it?

As a result, lots of good ideas are left to exist only in games most companies don't use as examples to convince the money away from VC/management. They just weren't successful enough to get the sort of headlines to excite, and therefore their features aren't used as examples of what to do.

Example: sidekicking. This has been implemented as a feature into games that have never posed any real competition to front-runners. Why the hell not? If you're making a diku, this should be as much a requirement as XP and levels. And yet, because EQ1 didn't do it and now WoW isn't doing it, and this by itself does not form a competitive advantage for the games that do, it's still a nice-to-have-maybe-someday.

[shiznitz]

AoC shouldn't be making the same mistakes that SB did 5 years ago. But it was inevitable that they would.

This is being repeated but it is not a valid comparison. SB was pure PvP. AoC is clearly a PvE game with a PvP option.

That said, AoC's PvP mechanics replicate many of the same mistakes other PvE/PvP hybrids have, so the sentiment is fair enough.

[Slayerik]

This is the part that irks me.

AoC shouldn't be making the same mistakes that SB did 5 years ago. But it was inevitable that they would.

These games are almost too vertical to truly evolve. Developers going from crash project to crash project. How much of an expert can they be in the nuances of the less successful titles in the genre? Who's got the time?

Add to this the management complexity: being a market success is still seen as a big part of whether features work. You can have good execution with a unmarketable IP. But because the game didn't sell 10mil units, you can't even talk about what parts of the game were good? And worse, because it didn't sell 10mil units, there's a good chance you didn't even make it a priority to play it?

As a result, lots of good ideas are left to exist only in games most companies don't use as examples to convince the money away from VC/management. They just weren't successful enough to get the sort of headlines to excite, and therefore their features aren't used as examples of what to do.

Example: sidekicking. This has been implemented as a feature into games that have never posed any real competition to front-runners. Why the hell not? If you're making a diku, this should be as much a requirement as XP and levels. And yet, because EQ1 didn't do it and now WoW isn't doing it, and this by itself does not form a competitive advantage for the games that do, it's still a nice-to-have-maybe-someday.

AoC has apprenticeships, basically raising your armor/defense level/damage up to the guy you are apprenticed to. I was level 59 last night, running through a dungeon...(though much less powerful than the real lvl 60.

[Venkman]

Yea, I used sidekicking as an example on my rant against the industry. AoC at least tries a couple of new and interesting things, and does some of them well. Too early to tell if they'll do a keep-growing WoW or quickly-decline like CoH though. The latter would because, well... no reason to repeat the rant

@shiznitz: I agree on the game differences, but AoC set out to be a PvP game. The Vision(tm) was to only ever need PvE from 1-20. Then they did some focus testing or something and seemed to shift their resources back to making more PvE content. In a way I feel like they built PvE atop PvP, which is why some classes are easymode and others are just woefully sucky. I think they should have stuck with PvP personally.

[Ratman_tf]

You ever question the rules? To ask, you know, if they might be poorly thought out?

Sure i do, and if i don't agree with them then i simply don't play.  Crying because someone tackled you during a football game makes you an idiot.

Some might opinion that corpsecamping is equvalent to constantly tackling the other guy in football whenever he tries to get up. Even after the whistle's been blown.

Of course, there are rules in football against that kind of thing. Those same people might opinion that a similar rule may be neat for FFA PvP servers.

Of course, others think FFA should mean "Rules are for pussies. Die faggot." *shrug*

[lamaros]

You ever question the rules? To ask, you know, if they might be poorly thought out?

Sure i do, and if i don't agree with them then i simply don't play.  Crying because someone tackled you during a football game makes you an idiot.

Some might opinion that corpsecamping is equvalent to constantly tackling the other guy in football whenever he tries to get up. Even after the whistle's been blown.

Of course, there are rules in football against that kind of thing. Those same people might opinion that a similar rule may be neat for FFA PvP servers.

Of course, others think FFA should mean "Rules are for pussies. Die faggot." *shrug*

Including, by their own words and not those of an errant GM, the Devs. Who happen to be the ones makeing the rules?

[Ratman_tf]

You ever question the rules? To ask, you know, if they might be poorly thought out?

Sure i do, and if i don't agree with them then i simply don't play.  Crying because someone tackled you during a football game makes you an idiot.

Some might opinion that corpsecamping is equvalent to constantly tackling the other guy in football whenever he tries to get up. Even after the whistle's been blown.

Of course, there are rules in football against that kind of thing. Those same people might opinion that a similar rule may be neat for FFA PvP servers.

Of course, others think FFA should mean "Rules are for pussies. Die faggot." *shrug*

Including, by their own words and not those of an errant GM, the Devs. Who happen to be the ones makeing the rules?

Especially. They're the ones deciding (for whatever reasons) what is and is not kosher in their game ruleset.

Then they get to deal with how the reality of players affects what they intended to happen in the game, and wether it turns out to be a popular or unpopular decision.

[Sky]

These games are almost too vertical to truly evolve. Developers going from crash project to crash project. How much of an expert can they be in the nuances of the less successful titles in the genre? Who's got the time?

Although I don't really talk design like I used to, I do like to think (if you'll excuse a slight delusion of grandeur) that this is where usefully cynical commentary comes in handy. When we're lauding games for little innovative bits, community people should be jotting stuff down and passing it to the dev teams. A list of stuff should be kept, innovations over the years that shouldn't be left off because seasoned players expect them, but more importantly, because they make games better.

Whether it's targetless combat, movement not interrupting skills, sidekicking/mentoring, appearance slots, vehicles, web access to guild chat, whatever. The genre has accumulated a lot of nice little bits that each new titles should dedicate some resources to putting in early on.

Of course, that's entirely beside major stuff like class balance and level and gear disparity in pve/pvp hybrids, but that's a dead horse for another day...

[waylander]

The only problem with AOC apprenticing is that it doesn't buff your health points or your damage. Therefore a level 30 tank apprenticed to level 60 is weaksauce in PVP and PVE situations. I see guilds trying to control zones on the PVP servers carrying around an army of level 50's with 1 level 80 apprentice, and we tear through them like a wet paper bag.

AOC does need more zones to level in after 40, and especially from level 70-80.  I'm stuck at level 78.5 because I'm spending too much time driving other guilds out of the zone so my guild can access the few high level exp areas.

Honestly, I'd rather fight over sieges/arenas/resource nodes than still be fighting over exp camps 12 years into MMO gaming.

[Lantyssa]

Including, by their own words and not those of an errant GM, the Devs. Who happen to be the ones makeing the rules?

Especially. They're the ones deciding (for whatever reasons) what is and is not kosher in their game ruleset.

Then they get to deal with how the reality of players affects what they intended to happen in the game, and wether it turns out to be a popular or unpopular decision.

The server code is the referee though.  There simply isn't the manpower to staff every zone with enough people to keep things running smoothly.  If the devs do not want something happening in their game, they need to design systems around this desire and hard code it.  Doing otherwise costs them CSR time and hurts player retention.

I'm not saying it's easy to code around player actions, but certain things are easily predictable, as we've demonstrated already.

[Slayerik]

The only problem with AOC apprenticing is that it doesn't buff your health points or your damage. Therefore a level 30 tank apprenticed to level 60 is weaksauce in PVP and PVE situations. I see guilds trying to control zones on the PVP servers carrying around an army of level 50's with 1 level 80 apprentice, and we tear through them like a wet paper bag.

AOC does need more zones to level in after 40, and especially from level 70-80.  I'm stuck at level 78.5 because I'm spending too much time driving other guilds out of the zone so my guild can access the few high level exp areas.

Honestly, I'd rather fight over sieges/arenas/resource nodes than still be fighting over exp camps 12 years into MMO gaming.

I was doing 1200 damage (non crit) with a lightning strike on mobs in the Sanctum, so maybe it only effects PVE. And took a ton more damage than I would ever have a chance of taking. YMMV

[shiznitz]

Some might opinion that corpsecamping is equvalent to constantly tackling the other guy in football whenever he tries to get up.

Of course, there are rules in football against that kind of thing. Those same people might opinion that a similar rule may be neat for FFA PvP servers.

Not trying to be as ass, but the verb form is to opine. Just trying to save you some awkwardness later in life.

[Signe]

You could have conversated that to him privately, you know.  How did conversate get to be a word, anyway.  All of a sudden, I hear it all the time on television.  Why?

[shiznitz]

You are right, Signe. I always forget about the PM option.

[Signe]

Don't be silly.  You wanted to make him feel awkward and I approve.  I just wanted to see if I could make you feel awkward.  We could have started some sort of feeling awkward chain.  It would have been fun but you ruined it.

[shiznitz]

I am married, 40, and three kids.  I am beyond awkward. Way beyond.

Back to the thread!

[Slayerik]

Don't be silly.  You wanted to make him feel awkward and I approve.  I just wanted to see if I could make you feel awkward.  We could have started some sort of feeling awkward chain.  It would have been fun but you ruined it.

I've been crying to myself
cumbersome and full of pain
and i can taste it on your breath
the sober crash; you've gone away
but I can't take it anymore
chasing stars that never fade
so I'll kiss you just once more
and hope the feeling fades away
but you'll see me in those lights
ocean eyes wont sleep today
so just go back to yourself
in a lucid halogram of apathy.
Break free from this awkward chain
you see me now; I'm not going away
swallow your pride and open your eyes
there's no reward in trying to hide.

My mind is racing in the night
frantic in my search for you
but I can't waste away on dreams
heaven is never what it seems
until the day that you awake
and question not this blissful fate.
Break free from this awkward chain
you see me now; I'm not going away
swallow your pride and open your eyes
there's no reward in trying to hide.

Ignorance has failed you now
i can see you look at me
say your last goodbyes
to the distance that you made
you're inside pandora's box
and there's no use trying to hide.

by: Nautica Mourey

I google weird things.

[Ratman_tf]

Not trying to be as ass, but the verb form is to opine. Just trying to save you some awkwardness later in life.

I can only wish that was the most awkward thing I've done in my life. 

Shit, I'm still not sure if I"m spelling "wether" correctly, and far too lazy to correct myself or care too much about it.

[HaemishM]

Shit, I'm still not sure if I"m spelling "wether" correctly, and far too lazy to correct myself or care too much about it.

You aren't. 

[Ratman_tf]

Shit, I'm still not sure if I"m spelling "wether" correctly, and far too lazy to correct myself or care too much about it.

You aren't. 

[Lantyssa]

I wasn't expecting something by Aerie to show up here.  It's nice how f13 can find new ways to surprise me.

[Morfiend]

I just wanted to point some thing out to some people.

In AoC they have multiple measures to help you avoid being camped as you res. One is that your recall spell becomes nearly instant when you are under the "just rezzed" protection buff. Also, you can change instances. If some one is getting corpse camped, its their own fucking fault.

[Triforcer]

I just wanted to point some thing out to some people.

In AoC they have multiple measures to help you avoid being camped as you res. One is that your recall spell becomes nearly instant when you are under the "just rezzed" protection buff. Also, you can change instances. If some one is getting corpse camped, its their own fucking fault.

These are the same people that said "I got pked 13 times in a row when I tried to walk through XRoads with all my ore 13 times in a row!"  Such people should not believe in evolution, as it would be very unkind to them personally